Why PvP is never fun in MMOs

[YpaWinz]

It's really very basic. If you're a casual player who doesn't have the time to farm out tokens and get great gear, then when that player goes up against somebody who does, they'll always lose. There's no skill needed, it's all based on gear.

 

PvP is more about who has the stronger knowledge of classes and their abilities, and good situational awareness. If a player possesses both of these things, his gear isn't near as big a factor as you would make it seem.

 

EDIT: I'm obviously not talking about the skilled guy being in pre-50 greens up against someone in 5 pieces of battlemaster gear, but even then, if the battlemaster guy is a terrible player who got lucky w/ bag draws, the guy in greens is probably still going to win.

Edited January 16, 2012 by YpaWinz

[Spurgo]

I am a very good in pvp. I got skills. This is a fact. I always win a 1vs1. I always help in objectives. I always do teamplay.

I am pvp rank 49.

I have opened 29 bags (more or less)

I have found 1 useful item: GLOVES

5 RELIC 4 IMPLANTS

Now.

I see around rank 35 with a full set.

They deal a lot more dmg than me. They absorb a lot more dmg than me.

I have like 190 expertise, they got 500.

2 things:

 

- NOMORE RANDOM DROP ITEMS FROM BAGS

OR

- NOMORE EXPERTISE

 

simply as this.

[tindin]

I am a very good in pvp. I got skills. This is a fact. I always win a 1vs1. I always help in objectives. I always do teamplay.

I am pvp rank 49.

I have opened 29 bags (more or less)

I have found 1 useful item: GLOVES

5 RELIC 4 IMPLANTS

Now.

I see around rank 35 with a full set.

They deal a lot more dmg than me. They absorb a lot more dmg than me.

I have like 190 expertise, they got 500.

2 things:

 

- NOMORE RANDOM DROP ITEMS FROM BAGS

OR

- NOMORE EXPERTISE

 

simply as this.

 

sorry for your loss....now go whine in one of the 10000 other treads that say the same thing

[MilesMcLeod]

I'm going to guess 1 of 2 things has happened to cause this post.

 

1) Your a 50 who's opened a few bags to find nothing and are annoyed at the system

 

2) Your a low level who's getting smashed by 50's with PvP gear

 

In the case of point 1, tough, welcome to the club. Loads of players dislike the current award system but RNG is so common in so many RPG's I'm seriously wondering if many had any idea what they were getting in for. The only problem I currently see with it is being stuck with useless spares which you'll never use. Someone else could be using them.

 

For 2, could you not have waited till Tuesday? Valor really has nothing to do with your argument, since you unlock nothing at 50 valor. Even getting rid of the 50's from warzones and you could still find 49 Val's in there with you. Your problem is down to expertise and has nothing to do with valor at all. Quite a few 50 valor players have less champion gear than those in the 30's.

 

People complaining here seem to think every class at every level should have a fair chance 1 on 1 with any other class. Apart from being massively unrealistic and practically impossible to implement that's not the objective. The PvP warzones are a team game and even level 10's have a part to play but if you think your part is to go 1 on 1 the biggest most geared level 50 in the match then your mistaken.

 

If you get rid of expertise they need to boost the rest of the stats to match the PvE gear otherwise your handing an advantage to the hardcore raiders which is exactly why expertise exists in the first place.

 

There's no possible way that my post is a criticism about every other MMO I've played with PvP aspect to it. Nope. Otherwise I would have titled this thread something like "Why PvP is never fun in MMO's" instead of "PvP isn't fun in SWTOR"

 

Oh wait, the former WAS the title I used.

 

I've hardly PvP'd, only a few games so far, and I'm finding the same blaring mistakes that any other game has had. There's a complete imbalance in classes, too many stuns, roots and knock backs and as a corruption sorc, I can pretty much heal and shield myself long enough that the other player either get bored, or get killed by my teammates.

 

Bioware made the same mistakes that so many other MMOs out there made, most of which could be solved by simply treating a PvP system like you would a PvE system and separating levels (or in this case, valor ranks).

[AGoldCrayon]

As much as I can sympathize with the frustration of RNG, the RNG in this game is no where near as bad as other MMO's (aion comes to mind right away), and about on par with pve rng.

[IxXDreamerXxI]

Valor =/= Gear. As for what I want, I could care less. I did just fine in the BG's leveling up in oranges and blues against 50's in cent/champ/battlemaster gear. And when I say 'fine', I mean I preformed up to my expectations. I didn't always win, but I wasn't always immediately crushed either.

 

I personally see no problem with letting people without expertise fight those with expertise, so long as expertise does not create a gulf that is too large to reasonably gap. Now, as for the valor question, I see no reason why brackets should be based on valor either. You'll inevitably have mostly empty brackets at lower levels, as everyone progresses in valor.

 

tl;dr, I trust BW to make needed changes as they gather metrics, and the OP is unduly whining.

 

Ahh crisis averted,

 

A well communicated stance in a discussion if i do say so myself and i do. now perhaps this topic can move forward or atleast come to a draw...

[MilesMcLeod]

PvP is more about who has the stronger knowledge of classes and their abilities, and good situational awareness. If a player possesses both of these things, his gear isn't near as big a factor as you would make it seem.

 

By all means, the next time you PvP, take off all of your gear and see just how good your are. Or buy yourself a bunch of level 35-45 greens and see how good you are. If you think gear means very little, you're sorely mistaken.

[AGoldCrayon]

There's no possible way that my post is a criticism about every other MMO I've played with PvP aspect to it. Nope. Otherwise I would have titled this thread something like "Why PvP is never fun in MMO's" instead of "PvP isn't fun in SWTOR"

 

Oh wait, the former WAS the title I used.

 

I've hardly PvP'd, only a few games so far, and I'm finding the same blaring mistakes that any other game has had. There's a complete imbalance in classes, too many stuns, roots and knock backs and as a corruption sorc, I can pretty much heal and shield myself long enough that the other player either get bored, or get killed by my teammates.

 

Bioware made the same mistakes that so many other MMOs out there made, most of which could be solved by simply treating a PvP system like you would a PvE system and separating levels (or in this case, valor ranks).

 

So you admit you're speaking from a position of ignorance?

Edited January 16, 2012 by AGoldCrayon

[Amp_]

Bioware made the same mistakes that so many other MMOs out there made, most of which could be solved by simply treating a PvP system like you would a PvE system and separating levels (or in this case, valor ranks).

 

Valor is just time invested. It's just a gating mechanic. That's it. You can't translate it into some kind of measuring stick for a matching system.

[tindin]

By all means, the next time you PvP, take off all of your gear and see just how good your are. Or buy yourself a bunch of level 35-45 greens and see how good you are. If you think gear means very little, you're sorely mistaken.

 

how abou being lvl 17 and killing lvl 30s does that count??

[SandTrout]

What I'm saying is gear is the least important thing in PvP, only over looks.

 

I've been in arena teams recently hitting max level with 300 resil vs a team with 3000+ resil.

 

My team won. Gear helps bads kill bads. Good players WILL stomp you anyway.

 

Winning WZs must have a reward. Yay credits. If you pvp you don't really need em. Yay valor ranks for e-peen.

 

What I'm saying is the reward is gear, and in all honesty it's a minimal one.

Yes, very skilled players will stomp geared up bad players. What about when a geared up mediocre team goes up against a somewhat skilled group of players without the top-end PvP gear? It just isn't fair, and you're playing against the equipment, not the player, making it no longer PvP, but PvP+E

 

If you want a PvP scenario where gear is equivalent, do top level PvP, such as Tournament rounds in WoW (example), where all gear is equal.

Expertise is meaningless here except it segregates people that have been playing for a long time from players that have not, regardless of skill. It's an unnecesary, and intrinsically destructive stat.

 

I'd like to argue your argument for PvE in which case. Give me top PvE gear so I can kill the PvE bosses as well as anyone else can, not limited by my time investment.

 

That, is dumb.

 

If you're given top gear, ALL rewards should be turned off. Maybe you want a setting? "Give me full top-level PvP/PvE gear and disable all rewards/titles/loot"?

 

Wheeeee pointlessness. Do you disagree? Yay, I'm not being ranked in WZs as they are now, but I want equal gear as if it's a serious competition when it's not because I know for a fact a 23 can kill 50s in 4+ pieces of champion gear because I HAVE PERSONALLY DONE IT.

I play PvP in order to beat players. I don't play PvP in order to beat their equipment. That is what PvE is for. I don't NEED an incentive to PvP beyond WINNING because I ENJOY PvP for PvP.

 

That's great that you've killed 50's with a 23, but that doesn't make the situation fair. That just means that your opponent is that bad or the classes are that imbalanced. People whine to no end about how classes are imbalanced, and they may have some valid points. However, expertise fundamentally introduces an imbalance.

[AGoldCrayon]

Valor is just time invested. It's just a gating mechanic. That's it. You can't translate it into some kind of measuring stick for a matching system.

 

Well, its a gating mechanic that shows time invested, which should be a decent indicator of how knowledgable a person is, though when practically applied, is just wishful thinking, sadly.

[specialllama]

@OP, while you do make some valid points ( low levels and high levels in the same bracket being the most obvious) saying there is no skill involved in pvp is just lol, I could say the same about pve, you start the fight knowing exactly what a boss will do before it happens. No skill needed there right? Where as in pvp you don't know what to expect , yes gear makes a difference but so? Go get geared, u have to do it in pve to be good right? It's the same with pvp. I'm enjoying pvp in ToR and I know many others who do too. It's pve that's boring and repetetive, cool u can kill an ai monster with ur pals but can't manage against some real people who don't have scripted movements and attacks? Tell you what, how about you go to the official forums and make a statement that no one likes pvp and It requires no skill... Oh wait...

[tindin]

Yes, very skilled players will stomp geared up bad players. What about when a geared up mediocre team goes up against a somewhat skilled group of players without the top-end PvP gear? It just isn't fair, and you're playing against the equipment, not the player, making it no longer PvP, but PvP+E

 

Expertise is meaningless here except it segregates people that have been playing for a long time from players that have not, regardless of skill. It's an unnecesary, and intrinsically destructive stat.

 

I play PvP in order to beat players. I don't play PvP in order to beat their equipment. That is what PvE is for. I don't NEED an incentive to PvP beyond WINNING because I ENJOY PvP for PvP.

 

That's great that you've killed 50's with a 23, but that doesn't make the situation fair. That just means that your opponent is that bad or the classes are that imbalanced. People whine to no end about how classes are imbalanced, and they may have some valid points. However, expertise fundamentally introduces an imbalance.

 

 

i'm going to go with old school UO player.....

 

 

pvp for pvping pve for the rewards thats how pvp should be

[SandTrout]

i'm going to go with old school UO player.....

 

 

pvp for pvping pve for the rewards thats how pvp should be

 

DAoC, Planetside, and CoH, actually.

[MilesMcLeod]

Valor is just time invested. It's just a gating mechanic. That's it. You can't translate it into some kind of measuring stick for a matching system.

 

Valor directly relates to the gear you have access to. However, you're also correct that it's not a perfect system. A better system would keep track of your PvP activities and rank you based on outcome the way Arena works in WoW.

[MasterMaL]

If you are good 8% expertise wont change anything and the rank 1 will still beat the rank 50 guy. Also since stuff is based on luck, ive seen people rank 16 will full champion gear and sadly me being rank 55 now im still missing lots of pieces.

 

If they put valor brakets it will just be as bad, since some low lv can be high valor rank, and low valor rank can be fully geared 50.

 

I hate how some people dont get how getting gear, progression in PvP can be the fun of many. I hate doing pve because you just bash on some npc who doesnt react and wait to die like a loot pinnata.

 

As a lv 20 in green gear i could stand my ground vs lv 50 with epic gear, yeah it was a bit harder but if you are good you will still manage to win/ help you team.

 

Just played a game on my lv 10 Jedi shadow alt. I was highest damage dealer and ALSO had most medals on republic side after the game.

 

If you want PvP to be super fair with everyone starting with the best gear, go play GW2. The only reason I don't even want to play GW2 one second is this exact some reason. No pvp progression = boring to me.

[tindin]

DAoC, Planetside, and CoH, actually.

 

ok cool..never played planetside....the others are about the same pvp wise (daoc was last i saw) pvp to pvp not to collect points and trade for gear

[raistek]

OK basically.

 

If i meet not geared player on warzone it is: clairvoyent, clairvoyent, project, force breach, whirlwind and it is over.

 

There is no skill requiered there. They can't do dmg to me and i just destroy them.

 

The fun starts when you meet equally geared player. And it is even better when you both have your consumables on cooldowns. Then it actually starts being fun. Def cooldown rotation. Right timing on trinket. Tactical use of stuns, and all that fun stuff.

 

 

Gear is the most important factor on WZ when you meet oponents. Skill gets involved at the moment you actually meet equally geared guy.

[JohraTon]

I don't think you've grasped the point, what does valor have to do with anything?

 

Someone who levels mostly through PvP will have a higher level than someone who flies through the quest content, then starts PvP. Valor has nothing to do with anything, its simply about gear. There are pleanty of people with valor around the 20's and 30's who have lots of champ gear. I've also seen level 30's with 30 valor, by your argument how is it fair to pair those 2 together? but that's what your suggesting.

 

The correlation between valor and gear is simply because more valor = more play time. The lucky players grab their stuff earlier at a lower valor level just due to the nature of the RNG system.

 

The thing is you actually have a reasonable point about people with no gear getting stuck fighting those with, but your going off on a tangent about valor which is just not making sense.

 

If you grab your 9 boxes or so for the 2 weekly and 2 daily at 50 and thats the first time you've ever PvP'd, you'd be around 2 or 3 valor yet its technically possible to pull 9 separate bits of you champ gear from those 9 bags. Grouping WZ's by valor would be putting that 50, with 9 bits of champ gear in wz's with fresh level 10's

 

Personally I'd be quite happy if the 50 bracket just took an average value for valor across the players taking part. If you were higher then fair enough, no change. If your lower then boost it to that. At least un-geared 50's won't be getting the shaft with the new update.

[MilesMcLeod]

OK basically.

 

If i meet not geared player on warzone it is: clairvoyent, clairvoyent, project, force breach, whirlwind and it is over.

 

There is no skill requiered there. They can't do dmg to me and i just destroy them.

 

The fun starts when you meet equally geared player. And it is even better when you both have your consumables on cooldowns. Then it actually starts being fun. Def cooldown rotation. Right timing on trinket. Tactical use of stuns, and all that fun stuff.

 

 

Gear is the most important factor on WZ when you meet oponents. Skill gets involved at the moment you actually meet equally geared guy.

 

This. A million times this.

[MasterMaL]

By all means, the next time you PvP, take off all of your gear and see just how good your are. Or buy yourself a bunch of level 35-45 greens and see how good you are. If you think gear means very little, you're sorely mistaken.

 

Like i said, in green gear lv 20 I was still toping the charts in warzones. It does help sure, but a good player will still manage to own.

 

I remember in WoW when my account got hacked, i went in a BG naked as a warlock and was still first in dmg and kills and won the game.

 

Learn to PvP

[AGoldCrayon]

Valor directly relates to the gear you have access to. However, you're also correct that it's not a perfect system. A better system would keep track of your PvP activities and rank you based on outcome the way Arena works in WoW.

 

Population constraints would not allow for that unless they enabled cross server matches. Which may happen eventually. I'm perfectly happy to give BW a chance to make the changes they feel are needed.

 

Still, I think the problem is you, not MMO's. If you think pvp isn't fun in mmo's, not any of them, that says something about you, not MMO's.

[Fallensbane]

I really enjoyed Warhammer pvp... I did not enjoy the year and a half nerfest on Magus and the buff fest on Bright Wizard. PVP in this game will get better, just got to give it time. I just wish they would lock features off when there was clearly an issue instead of allowing people to exploit the hell out of crap first.

[Amp_]

Well, its a gating mechanic that shows time invested, which should be a decent indicator of how knowledgable a person is, though when practically applied, is just wishful thinking, sadly.

 

But for match making it would be flawed. I'll use myself as an example.

 

I really wanted to PvP all the way through my levels, but I was playing with a friend who was not interested in doing it. I ended up PvP'ing far less on my main than I wanted to, and spent a lot of time doing it on alts so I wouldn't out level him by much.

 

Now I'm 50 and only 3-4 pieces of my gear do not have expertise on them, but my valor is only in the high 30's. I see plenty of people well below my level on my server who have titles indicating a much higher level of valor than I do.

 

So in that regard, valor is not an accurate indication of my knowledge, and not my expertise gear either (even more so since the reward system is somewhat random), which would make it no indicator for match making. This is what the OP needs to realize.