PVE Shieldtech: Threat issues

[Xexo]

So I've been doing a few HM FPs with my guildmates and I seem to find that on trash pulls I lose aggro quite quickly and I'm forever spamming my taunts. Sometimes it's the same on bosses that have adds.

 

My rotation for aoe packs: Death From Above -> Jet Charge -> Flame Sweep (to apply debuffs), Rocket Punch, Railshot as needed.

 

For single target: Jet Charge -> Flame Burst -> Rocket Punch - Rail Shot -> Unload/Rapid shots (filler) while maintaining decent heat management levels.

Generally my Heat doesn't rise above 40% heat if I stick to (what I thought was) the tanking rotation but it doesn't seem enough sometimes. If Sonic Missile is on CD then I'm having to spam expensive AoE attacks to keep the healers from pulling aggro.

 

My Gaurd ability is almost always on a DPS class like a marauder as they seem to be the worst for pulling aggro. If my healer is struggling then I swap.

 

I have read that IGC can bug out and needs to be reapplied but I haven't tested this. My question generally is this; are taunts in this game meant to be used in a rotation? Or are they tools for picking up stray mobs like in other MMOs?

 

Constructive feedback is really appreciated.

[midnitemonster]

So I've been doing a few HM FPs with my guildmates and I seem to find that on trash pulls I lose aggro quite quickly and I'm forever spamming my taunts. Sometimes it's the same on bosses that have adds.

 

My rotation for aoe packs: Death From Above -> Jet Charge -> Flame Sweep (to apply debuffs), Rocket Punch, Railshot as needed.

 

For single target: Jet Charge -> Flame Burst -> Rocket Punch - Rail Shot -> Unload/Rapid shots (filler) while maintaining decent heat management levels.

Generally my Heat doesn't rise above 40% heat if I stick to (what I thought was) the tanking rotation but it doesn't seem enough sometimes. If Sonic Missile is on CD then I'm having to spam expensive AoE attacks to keep the healers from pulling aggro.

 

My Gaurd ability is almost always on a DPS class like a marauder as they seem to be the worst for pulling aggro. If my healer is struggling then I swap.

 

I have read that IGC can bug out and needs to be reapplied but I haven't tested this. My question generally is this; are taunts in this game meant to be used in a rotation? Or are they tools for picking up stray mobs like in other MMOs?

 

Constructive feedback is really appreciated.

 

Taken from the SW forums...

 

"Basically when you taunt a mob, you gain 110% of the threat of the DPS or healer that had aggro before you taunted. Generally aggro or dps is built on a linear curve with spikes and valleys. So 150 Aggro means when you taunt you are now granted 165 aggro. 2480 aggro when taunted grants 2728 aggro and so on. Unfortunately currently the juggernaut does not have a true “spike” threat move. One minute CD Backhand will not cut it with any DPS worth his salt going all out.

 

Long and short let the dps tank if they pull aggro for about 2-3 seconds, they will not die. Build your rage and then taunt (use judgment on this amount of time) and when you taunt - > chain high damage\threat abilities and you won’t lose threat again. This may seem counter intuitive but it is FAR, FAR better than taunting immediately and losing threat again soon after, and being SOL for 13 seconds. Why is it more beneficial to wait? Simply put 10% of a bigger number is a bigger number. For anyone who didn’t get my joke, 2300 *1.10 (2530) low rage low threat potential vs. waiting 3 seconds building rage, taunting 3800 t*1.10 (4180) into high threat moves. This also satisfies the linear building of aggro with spikes and valleys gap for your DPS."

 

Just fill in the SW mumbojumbo with PT mumbojumbo.

[Solstrider]

You're half way there!

 

DPS haven't realised yet that threat is more delicate than were they have come from so they still charge and mash their keys.

 

You are missing some gimmes from your rotation that I'll quickly go through now and explain.

 

Basically as you have noticed keeping aggro on large aoe packs is tricky with the tools we are given cause the threat modifier given by IGC isnt enough to make them stick to you when someone is going single target on something.

 

Instead it's all about control. You have 2 amazing abilities for this - Explosive Dart (major priority) and Unload (second priority). I'll try uploading a vid of a typical trash pull later but it wants to go something like this.

 

(Death from above if off cd obviously)

You run towards the pack.

You fire Explosive Dart at a weak enemy incapacitating him (and those weak around him if you chose well)

You Jet Charge the Elite

You Rocket Punch the Elite

You Unload on another weak enemy incapacitating him

You Rocket Punch the Elite

You Rail Shot the Elite

(Elite aggro will be pretty secure now)

Rapid shot / Jet Charge to next target while dps mops up the elite.

 

(In the bank you still have electro dart and grapple for anything nasty and loose)

 

Powertech tanking is all about utilising that awesome array of utilities and mobility.

 

Unload as a boss filler im not sold on, I've used it once on nightmare mode EV when I decided to run out and give the melee more room on barrage. Flamethrower is a better cooldown and does not suffer push back so is useful in aoe situations.

 

Explosive Dart is well worth adding to your boss rotation as well large damage on a timer so you can be generating threat while you're knocked back / stunned etc. Grapple also has a nice threat component if you are knocked back you can grapple on your way back instead of charging.

[RageFury]

Powertech tanking needs some serious love as far as threat goes, IMO. Give us a talent that eliminates pushback on Unload and increase threat on one of our other core tanking abilities, and it'd make a huge difference, IMO.

[Tenacity]

I honestly dont know what you guys are doing wrong, I've never once had issues holding threat (aside from the mobs and bosses that have threat drops, which are quite common here compared to other games). We have much better AoE threat generation than either of the other tanking ACs, and our single target threat is only slightly lower than that of juggernauts and assassins.

 

[RageFury]

Dude, stop trolling. Much better AoE threat tanking? Ha. Play an Assassin tank for 5 minutes. Edited January 16, 2012 by RageFury

[midnitemonster]

I honestly dont know what you guys are doing wrong, I've never once had issues holding threat (aside from the mobs and bosses that have threat drops, which are quite common here compared to other games). We have much better AoE threat generation than either of the other tanking ACs, and our single target threat is only slightly lower than that of juggernauts and assassins.

 

 

Yes... If you have problems with AoE threat, go play a SW for a while...

[Rawksoss]

I remember a time in mmos ppl actually waited to start dpsing and didn't just run in like a leeroy jenkins and think we can just aoe it all down. Well thank you wow for dumbing instances down and making new players that much more stupid. With proper rotation and a kill order that involves the dps killing non elites first threat shouldn't eve be an issue. Seems a common theme ppl think man I have threat issues cuase I can't keep all 5 mobs on me. The less you are running around and focusing on a kill order threat should never be an issue. And if it is on a boss the post above makes sense save taunt til you can use your highest threat generating ability.

 

Though a big part is educating the dps and if they are guildie should be even easier to have them understand.

[DarkDruidSS]

I remember a time in mmos ppl actually waited to start dpsing and didn't just run in like a leeroy jenkins and think we can just aoe it all down. Well thank you wow for dumbing instances down and making new players that much more stupid. With proper rotation and a kill order that involves the dps killing non elites first threat shouldn't eve be an issue. Seems a common theme ppl think man I have threat issues cuase I can't keep all 5 mobs on me. The less you are running around and focusing on a kill order threat should never be an issue. And if it is on a boss the post above makes sense save taunt til you can use your highest threat generating ability.

 

Though a big part is educating the dps and if they are guildie should be even easier to have them understand.

 

This^. I play a Marauder and Sniper, but switching over to Powertech because I want to be more useful.

 

So anyway, as a manly DPS player I have noticed this game is a lot more like old school games when it comes to group content. Weaker targets the DPS should burn down first, then cycle through the tougher enemies in the priority system of if they are a healer, dps or a tank. It makes the content so much easier to tackle then trying to just burn everything all at once like you could do in WoW/Rift.

 

It's actually something I don't want changed in this game.

[Tenacity]

I did have to snap at my DPS last night during a false emperor run for pulling threat too often. They've gotten used to not having threat issues, but false emperor is full of enemies that like to spam knockbacks and stuns - most of the time I'd charge into a group of enemies, I'd get interrupted, stunned, and/or knocked back/down 3-4 times in a row, so for the first 5-10 seconds of the pull I'd have very little, if any, threat built up on enemy targets.

 

I find it particularly annoying that we're so reliant on channeled abilities for threat when nearly every enemy in hardmode flashpoints (and many in normal flashpoints) has multiple interrupts, stuns, or knockbacks that they use frequently enough to prevent you from ever actually using those abilities. Honestly I dont think I managed to get a full flamethrower cast or death from above cast throughout the entire flashpoint, save for on bosses.

[Rast]

I didn't see this thread, and as such, I posted the following thread. Adding it here to continue with the discussion.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=189567

 

My thoughts? Thank goodness we're not guardians. However, I definitely agree. Threat is just too fine a line to walk at current. Tweaks are needed. I hope Bioware listens and fixes this.

 

Rast

[RageFury]

Unload not having an anti-pushback talent in the shield tech tree is truly annoying. With unload being completely worthless most of the time, (seriously, no more threat than the generic white attack with multiple mobs beating on you, but costs heat) we definitely have threat issues. Now that the main Assassin in my guild is geared with all ilvl 56+ gear, even with Guard on, he can rip aggro from me over time even waiting 10 seconds to start DPS'ing if he blows cooldowns and keeps ripping. Edited January 17, 2012 by Qishari
Inappropriate language

[Rawksoss]

I trust that you are also geared with all lvl 56+ gear. And if not then of course he is going to rip aggro off you having better egar then yourself.

[anwg]

I wouldn't worry too much about weak/normal enemies, let the DPS clean them up.

If there are too many strong/elites, use CCs.

On single tough enemies (like bosses), use your highest threat rotation regardless of heat, and vent when you get close to 80, its cooldown is short enough it'll be back next fight (or even during the same fight).

[Vidrak]

I haven't really had issues yet. I haven't tried HM's yet, but will soon. Also, some of the tactics used seem to be horrible. Kill the weakest mobs first. They die in 2 seconds, and add a lot of damage to the fights. Burning the elite while leaving3-4 other mobs still firing who could be killed in under 10 seconds of total time? CC the elite and leave it for last.

 

When the weaker mobs break free and I lose aggro, I just let them go. During some boss fights you really have to pick them up. But the DPS/healer should be fine to take a few hits. You just don't want the elites and champions beating on people.

 

Again, this might change in HM's. But I haven't really had many threat problems except on larger more spread out pulls.

[fullpenetration]

I really dont understadn why you guys are having threat problems. The rotation i use let me keep aggro and keep my heat down as well. Here is single target rotation/ Jet Charge> Rocket Punch > Rapid Shot > Rail Shot > Rapid Shot > Flame Burst > Rapid Shot > RocketPunch > Rail Shot > Explosive Dart > Rail Shot > Heat Blast > Rapid Shot.

 

for AOE/ start with Death From Above> Jet Charge> Oil Slick then go into Flame Sweep > Rapid Shot > Explosive Dart > Rapid Shot > Flame Sweep > Rapid Shot > Rocket Punch > Rapid Shot > Flame Sweep > Rapid Shot > Heat Blast > Rapid Shot

 

doing this will keep your heat down and your threat up.

[Rast]

If your dps is solid, you can't use DFA on every mob. You can use it at best on every other pack. Plus, there are MULTIPLE pulls where, after you launch DFA, you end up with 2 to 4 adds that jetpack in and join the fight. What then? Sure, you jet pack in and you rocket punch the elite. Meanwhile, you're watching those 4 mobs--3 of which are strong mobs--eat your healer.

 

Threat issues weren't apparent at low levels of dps gear. When we started heroics, I had a few days to "gear up." I was the best geared member of our guild. I was lucky with PVP bags, I had run dailies for armor commendations, etc. Now? We're all in level 56+ gear--Columi/Rakata gear. The dps we put out is incredible. I'm not lying when I say our scoundrels (agents) can 1 shot a normal mob. I can't do that. When they open on an elite like that, even when I jet pack in and rocket punch that elite, they can pull aggro if they aren't guarded.

 

A normal pull, too, doesn't have just one elite. Take the False Emp run. You'll have packs of 3 elites. Multiple strong mobs. Multiple other mobs that join after the fight starts. Threat is a very tight line at current. Very tight. My new gear has greatly increased my ability to live. It has not increased my damage equal to what my dpser's new gear has done for them. They do so much more damage that my ability to hold threat isn't anywhere near what it was. The line is too tight; it removes the fun factor for a lot of us.

 

DPS players don't want to throttle. They want to do their best. I want to be able to hold aggro. At current, these two are exclusive--my dps players have to be care and throttle themselves to allow me to hold threat. Neither of us like that arrangement.

 

Unless you're dealing with fully 56+ geared dpsers in HM raids and HM flashpoints, please don't assume that someone else is "doing it wrong."

[Synesis]

Kind of saw the itemization problem kind of a mile away but wasn't sure since I can't test it yet (same thing happened to paladin tanks at the beginning of WoLK 3.3 if you were pushing raid content before they made threat gen loleasy).

 

I haven't been at end game quite yet (real life obligations has a tendacy to get in the way of leveling lol ) but I figure that through smart gear itemization that threat can be less of a tight rope. My biggest question is how much of your gear is pure survivablity vs pure dps gear, cause survivablity is great and all but sometimes can be a hinderance than a benefit at a certain point.

[Vidrak]

DPS players don't want to throttle. They want to do their best. I want to be able to hold aggro. At current, these two are exclusive--my dps players have to be care and throttle themselves to allow me to hold threat. Neither of us like that arrangement.

The line needs to be tight, IMO. Or else the game just turns into everyone spamming buttons and not even thinking about what they are doing (my opinion of tanking in WoW ... yawn). It is part of the strategy for team play.

 

Like in the EQ days, wizards would literally sit out the entire fight until the mob was at half HP. Then they would stand up, cast 2 times, it would die. Rinse and repeat.

 

If your DPS can't learn to let the tank build hate, it is their fault. However, if there are problems beating enrage timers due to this, that is another story. Overall, aggro is something everyone needs to manage. They need to be using their aggro dump skills, you need to be taunting.

 

There might also be some spec changing and gear balancing to be though about as well. Maybe going more DPS and less defense, if healers are not having issues keeping you up? I know many times, when I am tanking, healers are barely healing at all. So I might try respec'ing at some point to be ever so slightly more offensive.

 

I honestly can't wait to do heroics if this is how they really are. The game isn't very challenging as it stands now, IMO.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Vidrak

[Wyndskar]

The tips and tricks for how to tank posted above, are all valid, however dont fall into the same trap alot of new tanks fall into. That being, sometimes it just really is NOT you fault. Just as u have to learn how to tank, they have to learn how to dps. If they cut open with aoe before youve got threat on everyone, the will pull off of you. If they are shooting at someone that is not they main target, they will pull off of you. If they dont listen and follow the plan, they will pull off of you. And everytime they do, they will complain that YOU arent doing your job. Which just isnt true. Old old golden rule of tanking is "if the healer dies, its your fault. If YOU die, its the healers fault. If dps die, its thier own dang fault". I would agro that you should guard the healer always. If they die, you will ussaly wipe. If the maurders decide to cut lose and draw more then they can handle, let them die. You can ussaly survie it, if you keep the healer alive, and after a time, they will either slow down or leave. Niether of whic is a bad thing if they arent listening to the plan anyway. Now you still have to do you job, and try and hold eveything, but if a merc starts a fight with dfb before you get ahold of the agro, how is that your fault?

[Rawksoss]

I haven't done any HM's as I'm not 50 but as I read all this I'm sort of inttigued. If aggro really is an issue that sucks but if its a rotation/spec/ gear thing I'm sort of excited to get in there and tank em. I played a prot pally in wow and it was easy mode charge in pew pew yay I don't have to worry about holding multiple adds gogo aoe my cds will keep me alive. So the prospect of having to pay attention when I tank brings back the ecitement of being an off tank in raids on my druid back in SSC.

 

However, if it truly is a threat issue only a matter of time before its addressed and until then the button smashing dps will have to learn there is a time to go balls to the wall and a time to ease into it. Just like the stars of virign diaries will learn gotta ease in or it will hurt you and your partner

[Nephalite]

Honestly how come on AOE pulls no one uses carbonite spray? I use it all the time throw down an oil slick flame sweep flame vent and flame sweep focus on a mob oh and explosive dart.... I keep agro fine.

[Veg-Wan]

I have to agree with quite a few comments made by people on this, a lot of the problems you will have with aggro are generally the DPS's fault, people still aren't out of wow mode where tanking threat was never an issue.

 

The fight mechanics do knock you around a bit sometimes, that will lower threat alot and can generally only be remidied by telling them the error of there nuking, DPS just AOE'ing is currently my big gripe though, I know I certainly can't spam my aoe, without gaining 100% heat, so the people you group with just need to learn to roll in some fillers that aren't AOE so they don't get aggro.

 

The best way I solved it with my regular group buddys is making them use there threat reduction moves on CD [which EVERY dps should have] and giving you 5-10 seconds at the beginning of any pull to control loose mobs and most importantly, using EVERY CC available. You will cruise through it by doing just these 2 things alone.

[TimeIIDie]

Can't say aggro has been too much of an issue, it's a fun battle at times to mop up every mob you need to but holding a boss is a cakewalk. If anything the hardest thing has been picking up the fly in trash mobs on hard modes when your working around CC'd elites for control. In the bigger swarms it can get a little touch and go (electro dart one, grapple 2nd, jump onto 3rd nearest your healer and have your DPS mop up the other 2-3 then regroup before the elites un-CC). When it's a basic one boss aggro and burn the adds we have plenty of abilities to corral the horde.

 

Abilities with aggro value;

 

All-purpose AOE

 

Sonic Missile

 

Beware CC-breaking AOE

 

Flamethrower (Spin your mouse and it's basically an extra flame sweep, good for those 8 mob pulls in the EV jungle)

Flame Sweep (Better for a mass trash pull, will hold the trash the DPS isn't burning until ready)

Explosive Dart (Launch it at an elite, pickup the trash around it as well

 

Single target

 

Electro Dart

Rocket Punch (Will take aggro most times for 4-5secs off a DPS, plenty enough time to burn a grey)

Grapple (Use to grab loose trash heading for your healer on a delayed spawn)

Unload (Usually my fallback for add mobs charging the healer if i've used up grapple, they'll come running back just as they reach the healer)

Leap (Build your add train, then leap to an offcentre add, they'll follow you around doing no damage to anyone, perfect tactical option, i'll usually target a grey if the elites are CC'd at this point, follow up with rocket punch and then watch the AoE's pile in on top of me and my train)

 

Handy corraling tools

 

Encase in Carbonite (If you've pulled a huge pack, once you've used your leap and the train has followed, flamethrower spin the encase, it'll give the DPS an extra few seconds to carve up the stragglers).

Rocket (Basic knockdown on the real trash, can be a fallback if unload doesn't quite get a runners attention as an exclamation point, generally limited use though)

 

If anything the main hassle in the tougher raids and HMs has been drawing too much aggro at once and having to wipe off a few of the lower trash on nearby DPS to let the healers keep up. The most mobs in the HM that you can handle comfortably is around 4-5, if your at more than that run a couple through a DPS's AoE and then reacquire them before they reach him. It's only worth a second or two but that gives your healer chance to get off something, and lets you run up your shield and relics.

[QiBao]

Honestly how come on AOE pulls no one uses carbonite spray? I use it all the time throw down an oil slick flame sweep flame vent and flame sweep focus on a mob oh and explosive dart.... I keep agro fine.

 

I use it quite a bit if I can hit 3+ mobs. Less damage taken. Can usually get in a good FT before they move around (hits for about 1k/tick). Explosive dart and Unload on ranged regular mobs for the CC effect. Seriously, though, Carbonite Spray is amazing.