why the jugg needs fixing PTvsJUGG

[Wickedwood]

have u guys ever actually compared the power tech tree with the Juggernaut tree?

as far as tanking goes power tech gets a 3% hp boost, a 16%increase in armor value, a total of 12% shield chance, some absorption rating in its tree a 9% boost to aim, fire attacks lower damage dealt by 4% and to top it off 3% reduction from all damage keep in mind every skill except the hp boost is in the shield specialist tree and the hp boost is a t1 skill in some other tree.

 

KOLTO OVERLOAD: increases maximum health by 30% for 20 seconds. The gained health is lost at the end of the effect. this already has a talent that reduces its cooldown by 20 seconds 3 min cd

 

CARBONITE SHIELD: A shield surrounds the Bounty Hunter reducing all damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds. 3 min cd

 

ENERGY SHIELD: provides 25% damage reduction for 12 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown

 

now on to Juggernaut we get 100% chance to lower accuracy by 5% (when the mobs hit values most likely start at 100% or 90%) we get a 6% boost to strength (why does every other class get 9% to its main stat and not us?). 4% shield chance (compared to 12???)

6%defensive bonus. another 6% from retaliation( btw if u take this you wont be able to get the 6% strength increase in vengeance tree) force scream has 100% chance to create a barrier(the tool tips dont tell how much the barrier actually absorbs seems like 1 hit)and finaly 4% reduced internal damage.

 

ENDURE PAIN: temporarily increases your maximum health by 30% for 10 seconds at the end of the duration the health is lost 3 min cd

 

SABER WARD: Raises a light saber ward, increasing melee and ranged defense by 50% and reducing the damage taken from Force and tech attacks by 25%. Lasts 12 seconds. 3 min cd

 

INVINCIBLE: reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds. 3 min cd

 

 

 

 

im sure there are things i forgot to put in here that the PT has mitigation wise. you will also notice a huge amount of talents that boost his bread and butter tanking skills like rocket punch and all flame damage and crit.

 

now i would like everyone to go compare the trees on there own.

now some might say o the bounty hunter gets more mitigation talents to compensate for his armor or his hp well bh use heavy armor and it has the same value as heavy force user

armor.

 

so please guys actually compare the trees side by side and give me your feedback if the jugg tank is so good and needs no fixes then tell me what makes up for his lack of a semi legit tank tree. from my comparison from looking at both the trees side by side and having 50 power tech friend and being a 50 jugg tank myself i am just disgusted with our so called tank tree and to even be called a tank in comparison to the the PT or even the assassin is laughable. i dont want huge missile salvos that reign from the sky or nuclear bombs that obliterate everyone i just want to seem semi useful and have some sort of a specialization i can call my own

 

and on a broader view this also applys to our enemies the Jedi guardian and the trooper vanguard since they mirror the sith Juggernaut and bounty hunter power-tech

Edited January 15, 2012 by Wickedwood

[Wickedwood]

here is a link for the two trees

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301.1

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101.1

[DarthSeize]

Hmm, I might make a fool of myself here but have you considered the shield chance added by Soresu Form and the shield chance given by the Off-hand? Also, Force Scream grants an additional form of mitigation which is basically on demand, on a pretty low CD, for a very low cost. There is also a talent which grants additional defense whenever Retaliation is used, which should be a main part of any tanking rotation. Between all the above, I think the Powertech/Juggernaut comparison looks much better for us Juggernauts.

 

Again, I haven't done the math and I'm just responding quickly, so I could be wrong!

[Noth]

Hmm, I might make a fool of myself here but have you considered the shield chance added by Soresu Form and the shield chance given by the Off-hand? Also, Force Scream grants an additional form of mitigation which is basically on demand, on a pretty low CD, for a very low cost. There is also a talent which grants additional defense whenever Retaliation is used, which should be a main part of any tanking rotation. Between all the above, I think the Powertech/Juggernaut comparison looks much better for us Juggernauts.

 

Again, I haven't done the math and I'm just responding quickly, so I could be wrong!

 

Powertechs get the same shield shance from off hand shields and their tank stance. Screams sonic barrier lasts at best 1 hit on hardmode content and is not on demand thanks to a 12 second cooldown. Pretty much everything is touched upon in the OP's post as well.

[Wickedwood]

Hmm, I might make a fool of myself here but have you considered the shield chance added by Soresu Form and the shield chance given by the Off-hand? Also, Force Scream grants an additional form of mitigation which is basically on demand, on a pretty low CD, for a very low cost. There is also a talent which grants additional defense whenever Retaliation is used, which should be a main part of any tanking rotation. Between all the above, I think the Powertech/Juggernaut comparison looks much better for us Juggernauts.

 

Again, I haven't done the math and I'm just responding quickly, so I could be wrong!

 

bounty hunters also get the shield chance bonus with there tanking buff and they also use shields just like us except with aim and endurance instead of str end

[omninull]

Hmm, I might make a fool of myself here but have you considered the shield chance added by Soresu Form and the shield chance given by the Off-hand? Also, Force Scream grants an additional form of mitigation which is basically on demand, on a pretty low CD, for a very low cost. There is also a talent which grants additional defense whenever Retaliation is used, which should be a main part of any tanking rotation. Between all the above, I think the Powertech/Juggernaut comparison looks much better for us Juggernauts.

 

Again, I haven't done the math and I'm just responding quickly, so I could be wrong!

 

This just proves that people who aren't complaining about Juggernauts don't have much experience in being, or observing other classes.

 

The powertechs get a dps tree just like us, and so they also have different 'cylinders'

Edited January 15, 2012 by omninull

[Wickedwood]

This just proves that people who aren't complaining about Juggernauts don't have much experience in being, or observing other classes.

 

The powertechs get a dps tree just like us, and so they also have different 'cylinders'

 

yea i mean common are the guys that say that jugg is just fine so full of themselves that they cant see whats staring them in the face?.

the jugg needs work its obvious just compare trees man and compare classes there is absolutely nothing not 1 single thing that we can do better than other classes we cant even come close to being on par with them, this is especially true for jugg tanks.

[Traison]

40% damage reduction every 3 mins

25% melee/range damage reduction AND 2 (3 if 2pc) seconds of INVINCIBILITY that's on demand every 3 mins

30%+ health every 3 mins (1.5 mins next patch)

Force Scream for me absorbs around 1800 dmg atm.

 

So the above CDs are what make juggs gods for pve.

 

My two cents.

[omninull]

40% damage reduction every 3 mins

25% melee/range damage reduction AND 2 (3 if 2pc) seconds of INVINCIBILITY that's on demand every 3 mins

30%+ health every 3 mins (1.5 mins next patch)

Force Scream for me absorbs around 1800 dmg atm.

 

So the above CDs are what make juggs gods for pve.

 

My two cents.

 

Sounds like you use a lot of cooldowns compared to the other classes just to survive what they can easily do.

[Wickedwood]

40% damage reduction every 3 mins

25% melee/range damage reduction AND 2 (3 if 2pc) seconds of INVINCIBILITY that's on demand every 3 mins

30%+ health every 3 mins (1.5 mins next patch)

Force Scream for me absorbs around 1800 dmg atm.

 

So the above CDs are what make juggs gods for pve.

 

My two cents.

 

to bad the bh has all thoes things

 

kolto overload: ncreases maximum health by 30% for 20 seconds. The gained health is lost at the end of the effect. this allready has a talent that reduces its cooldown by 20 seconds

 

carbonite shield: A shield surrounds the Bounty Hunter reducing all damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds.

 

energy shield: provides 25% damage reduction for 12 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown

 

so back at square 1 again

[Thregin]

You are misinformed about the PTs cooldowns.

 

Carbonite shield -> this ability doesnt exist

 

Kolto overload -> This is a pretty worthless BH ability that heals them for 15% hp over 10 seconds every 3 minutes.

 

Energy shield -> this is actually as you described.

 

In effect they got 1 good defensive cooldown which isnt even as good as the comparable jugger one.

On the whole we have better/more defensive colldowns then PTs and assassins too.

As for the passive tanking bonuses as far as survivability goes i think we're pretty even, possibly a slight edge to the BH but we got sonic barrier.

 

For pve the problem is with our AE threat and threat when the mobs are spread out where we're severly lacking.

For the former the obvious answer would be to up our ae dmg somehow.

For the latter though we'd either need more/better range attacks which i doubt we'll get, a pull like the other 2 tanks got which seems unlikely as we had it in beta but they removed it or better/faster manouverability which might be an option as that is also a problem in pvp which the devs actually stated they were lookin at.

 

What im afraid of is that our bad AE threat might be intentional (seriously how else can the devs make us this bad at it otherwise) to balance our defensive cooldowns which probably makes us the best single mob boss tanks. However i think this would be a bad move by bioware as the frustration from underperforming on AE threat is worse then possibly dying from a boss hit, especially leveling up since then the responsibility of the tank dying is shared with the healer atleast.

 

I got a 50 jugg, 29 assassin and 19 vanguard (powertech)

 

PS. i still like the playstyle/feel/look/feel etc of the jugger the most

 

PPS. In pvp the biggest issue is that most attacks bypass our defense imho

[Wickedwood]

You are misinformed about the PTs cooldowns.

 

Carbonite shield -> this ability doesnt exist

 

Kolto overload -> This is a pretty worthless BH ability that heals them for 15% hp over 10 seconds every 3 minutes.

 

Energy shield -> this is actually as you described.

 

In effect they got 1 good defensive cooldown which isnt even as good as the comparable jugger one.

On the whole we have better/more defensive colldowns then PTs and assassins too.

As for the passive tanking bonuses as far as survivability goes i think we're pretty even, possibly a slight edge to the BH but we got sonic barrier.

 

For pve the problem is with our AE threat and threat when the mobs are spread out where we're severly lacking.

For the former the obvious answer would be to up our ae dmg somehow.

For the latter though we'd either need more/better range attacks which i doubt we'll get, a pull like the other 2 tanks got which seems unlikely as we had it in beta but they removed it or better/faster manouverability which might be an option as that is also a problem in pvp which the devs actually stated they were lookin at.

 

What im afraid of is that our bad AE threat might be intentional (seriously how else can the devs make us this bad at it otherwise) to balance our defensive cooldowns which probably makes us the best single mob boss tanks. However i think this would be a bad move by bioware as the frustration from underperforming on AE threat is worse then possibly dying from a boss hit, especially leveling up since then the responsibility of the tank dying is shared with the healer atleast.

 

I got a 50 jugg, 29 assassin and 19 vanguard (powertech)

 

PS. i still like the playstyle/feel/look/feel etc of the jugger the most

 

PPS. In pvp the biggest issue is that most attacks bypass our defense imho

 

ok it seems you are correct but how can you still believe that we are fine. atm sonic barrier only seems to absorb at best 500 damage which is nothing. and while invincible is a great move its on a 3 min cd. the sheer passive mitigation that the pt tank has compared to us is way more than anof to make up for the crappy sonic barrier and the very short lived invincible i mean 16% armor boost the 12% shield chance, 6% absorption rating 4% reduction to all damage, 3% endurance, flame attacks reduce damage by 4%

and as salt in the wound oil slick 20% reduced accuracy in a aoe compared to our useless 5% from smash.

once again compare the trees its so obvious that its sickening and like i have said i have a 50 pt irl friend and have seen the difference first hand we have each battled gold mobs i had to use all my cooldowns and still took more damage than him he didnt even kyte the mob he just stood there melee.

i have seen him tank the same hm flashpoints as me and take less damage in boss fights and put out bigger numbers and he does not out gear me we are pretty much even in gear.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Wickedwood

[FuzioNdapro]

For those who said that sonic barrier can take one hit on hardmode operation u are so wrong with my for 4setbonus wich increases it with an additional 20% obsorb i absorb around 800 damage, and i got like full columi wich makes it utterly usless.

 

Look at the assasin tank tree before u complain over the Bounty hunter one, the assasin darkness is godamn sick and not that it has most migtation and unfair talents compared to jugg immortal the damage assasin tanks do can be compared to a dps class(no i am not kidding)

 

ontop of that they got an unique debuff wich immortal tanks got none, and please dont say guard becuse all other tanks got it! 9% damage from all sourices > 5stacks of sundering armor in any godamn scenario!

Edited January 16, 2012 by FuzioNdapro

[Thregin]

ok it seems you are correct but how can you still believe that we are fine. atm sonic barrier only seems to absorb at best 500 damage which is nothing. and while invincible is a great move its on a 3 min cd. the sheer passive mitigation that the pt tank has compared to us is way more than anof to make up for the crappy sonic barrier and the very short lived invincible i mean 16% armor boost the 12% shield chance, 6% absorption rating 4% reduction to all damage, 3% endurance, flame attacks reduce damage by 4%

and as salt in the wound oil slick 20% reduced accuracy in a aoe compared to our useless 5% from smash.

once again compare the trees its so obvious that its sickening and like i have said i have a 50 pt irl friend and have seen the difference first hand we have each battled gold mobs i had to use all my cooldowns and still took more damage than him he didnt even kyte the mob he just stood there melee.

i have seen him tank the same hm flashpoints as me and take less damage in boss fights and put out bigger numbers and he does not out gear me we are pretty much even in gear.

 

Never said we were fine tough. I just felt i had to comment since i dont think saying stuff that's untrue (in regards to their cooldowns) is the best way to get us the help we need. In short i think its gonna be very hard to figure out which tank is the most survivable before theres any sort of combat log and parsing in the game, but i dont think we are "squishy" by any means and we got some nice cooldowns. Moreover one thing thats not immediatly noticeable is the fact that soresu form gives 6% dmg reduction while the PT tank stance gives 5%, there might be other things too.

 

The one aspect which is clearly obvious even whitout a parser is our threat issues and thats where i decided to put my main focus since i feel i can make more accurate observations.

 

If its like you say though and you have done tests and the PT has better survivability i can only hope the devs do something about it at the same time they buff our threat like move the "tanky" traits in the vengeance spec lower down the tree for example might be one way

 

Increasing the duration on "Blade barricade" from 6 to like 9 seconds on retaliate might be a nice change too since even if retaliate is up and you click it with this stupid combat delay alot of the time it refuses to trigger

 

...i hate this combat delay /sigh

[Wickedwood]

Never said we were fine tough. I just felt i had to comment since i dont think saying stuff that's untrue (in regards to their cooldowns) is the best way to get us the help we need. In short i think its gonna be very hard to figure out which tank is the most survivable before theres any sort of combat log and parsing in the game, but i dont think we are "squishy" by any means and we got some nice cooldowns. Moreover one thing thats not immediatly noticeable is the fact that soresu form gives 6% dmg reduction while the PT tank stance gives 5%, there might be other things too.

 

The one aspect which is clearly obvious even whitout a parser is our threat issues and thats where i decided to put my main focus since i feel i can make more accurate observations.

 

If its like you say though and you have done tests and the PT has better survivability i can only hope the devs do something about it at the same time they buff our threat like move the "tanky" traits in the vengeance spec lower down the tree for example might be one way

 

Increasing the duration on "Blade barricade" from 6 to like 9 seconds on retaliate might be a nice change too since even if retaliate is up and you click it with this stupid combat delay alot of the time it refuses to trigger

 

...i hate this combat delay /sigh

 

yea man i get what i like to refer to as a stutter in ability's i like to spam my keys and for example vicious slash i will hold my saber above my head and wobble it around like 2-3 times like im a batter in MLB. it seems like it is reseting the animation every key press. and as a result it takes longer for me to execute the ability i have noticed this with every single move i have.

 

i would be perfectly happy with he jugg if our 6% str boost was 9% like everyone elses

and we had a few more useful tanking talents like passive armor or more shield chance or maybe even make sonic barrier actually good.

 

and yes i agree on the threat part as well smash or cleave need to generate threat to help us out in aoe. because crushing blowing this target and backhanding the other target and then force screaming the 3rd target while always smashing and cleaving in between is just a little to much work and all that work does not even pay off we still loose threat a lot of the time.

[Tierdal]

powertechs got a carbonite shield?

 

Game over man

[Errthu]

Tank powertechs can unleash up to 300k damage while completing objectives. Which is not possible for Immortal juggernauts.

 

End of story.

[Wickedwood]

tank powertechs can unleash up to 300k damage while completing objectives. Which is not possible for immortal juggernauts.

 

End of story.

 

exactly power tech tank does more damage has more mitigation and more utility so what am i as the jugg good at: looking mean?

Edited January 16, 2012 by Wickedwood

[RenTheGod]

6%defensive bonus. another 6% from retaliation( btw if u take this you wont be able to get the 6% strength increase in vengeance tree)

 

Wait what?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101dMGcubrouRZhGM.1

[Wickedwood]

Wait what?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101dMGcubrouRZhGM.1

 

not worth giving up thrown gauntlet or intimadation and also battle cry

Edited January 16, 2012 by Wickedwood

[RenTheGod]

not worth giving up thrown gauntlet

 

I've done almost everything minus Nightmare EV, I've never EVER seen a use for 15 seconds off our AoE Taunt. NEVER.

[Monkhammer]

I've done almost everything minus Nightmare EV, I've never EVER seen a use for 15 seconds off our AoE Taunt. NEVER.

 

Thrown Guantlet is more of a PvP upgrade.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Monkhammer