Tank companions are useless.

[antarious]

Maybe it wouldn't put me in a bad mood if people would actually listen to what I'm saying or stop making excuses for broken companions. Everyone here has been saying one of three things.

 

1: Claiming that it's perfectly fine for your tank companion to have the same armor as your DPS companion and less armor than your healer character. Ridiculous claim. Same sanity level as claiming Drano makes a great sundae topping. Doesn't even deserve a response.

 

2: Half the advice any time someone brings up tank companions is to use a different companion, which just proves how broken they are. Somehow people seem to think that the existence of other companions is a good reason to never fix the useless ones.

 

 

OMG One of you speaks English! Thank you for trying to translate for me!

 

 

My response would be more along the lines of if you are focusing on how much armor or HP your companion has... is not going to illustrage the issue you are trying to point out.

 

 

Generally speaking your companions damage reduction and chance to reduce damage (either shield, defense or both) are very low in comparison to a player of the same class. While armor rating would affect one stat in that area.. which relates to damage reduction. Their actual defense chance starts off very low compared to a player (tank). So regardless of what their armor class is.. if they have a very low chance to even make their defense roll they are not going to reduce damage very often.

 

 

^^ The main reason I mention this is because its not specific to talents. You can take a player tank at level 14 when they get their shield bonus buff. Put them in the best gear you can find.. then put any companion tank in the best gear you can find. Don't look at armor rating etc just look at the actual chance stats (defense/shield) and you should start to see the obvious.

 

 

There are other issues but this is me trying to stay relevant to your topic.

Edited January 15, 2012 by antarious

[Game_Hermit]

How will talking about armor and HP not point out that he's too squishy to be a tank? What do you suggest I talk about instead? His pretty paint job? I didn't point out every single thing that's wrong with his tanking, but that's a pretty big list and what I have talked about is more than enough justification for a buff already. Edited January 15, 2012 by Game_Hermit

[rocketeerabc]

Lots of hate vs the op over how he says things, but he isn't that far off with what he says imho.

 

1. Healer perspective. Your companions don't need taunts to hold aggro over you since you simply lack dps.

 

2. Tank companions do hardly add any survivability over dps/healing companions in heavy armor. Infact i think healing companions based on heavy armor will be tougher since they selfheal and do nice AoE aggro sufficent to let you peel enemy groups like a onion. Especially, because every healer has a CC to disable the strongest mob in any group.

 

3. Its not about lack armor, its about lacking appropiate gear for their job. Tanks need defense based gear, which is hard to aquire while leveling, even more so for droids.

 

 

The true problem though is that every tank class in the game(players) is made up of a combination of +armor bonus and shields. This is where companions fall flat, shields alone simply do not make you a tank, unless they where significiantly stronger than the player ones.

 

Healers simply shouldn't use tank companions, they should use DPS companions or tough heal companions depending on situation. If you face three elite its better to CC one, quickly kill the other and then have the last on your DPS companion instead of trying to have your tank companion tank two and force yourself to built crazy heal aggro on the CC one while doing pitiful damage to the tanked ones due to having to constantly spend time healing.

 

Tank companions as they are are pretty situational, i use them if im dps specced for example for their force taunts. Thats working fine, though not due to them tanking so well, but due to me melting stuff really fast. Something a healer obviously can't do.

 

How will talking about armor and HP not point out that he's too squishy to be a tank? What do you suggest I talk about instead? His pretty paint job? I didn't point out every single thing that's wrong with his tanking, but that's a pretty big list and what I have talked about is more than enough justification for a buff already.

 

How about his shields, or defense?

Edited January 15, 2012 by rocketeerabc

[Kemorand]

Not sure where the OP comes from but my 4X at 36 is quite the awesome tank. Since I'm cybertech, he's covered in purples, top of the crop at every level.

- 10.9k HP without any Presence stims, about 11.5k with one.

- 28% base armor + Flameguard up constantly (puts him at 33%) which is what makes his armor really.

- 14.1% defense and just a bit above default in shield/shield absorb.

Have't met any other tank able to match that at that level.

 

I've been using him for every single HC4 (up to level +1) and a couple flashpoints (green ones though, I admit) since I got him because player tanks usually can't cut it and I've been having no problem whatsoever. Since I'm commando heal spec but usually play only tanks in MMOs, 4X and me are basically all I need to start a group and that's great

HC2 are just...cakewalk...

 

I can micromanage him pretty decently now, even to the point of using the grappling hook as an interrupt from time to time for example. Can easily have him avoid any and all AE abilities and since he's a ranged tank, I can do quite some nice things with our mobility. He also has a nice 25% damage reduction CD which can come in handy during some heavy frontloaded pulls.

I put most of his AE abilities off auto-use and use them when I need them, like before pull right when I start casting my CC, etc. Same for his harpoon, which I keep to interrupt or to move the fight around. I play with passive/active state a lot of course, to control the flow and avoid AEs.

 

His threat generation is just nuts and back at 36, even a sentinel level 41 just couldn't get aggro. Even pure tanks can't out aggro him usually and they end up just letting him tank because he does a better job.

 

Apart from a couple of very specific mobs (Colicoid Stingers, Cartel bodyguards, etc) which are melee and have WAY above normal damage for their level range, elites barely scratch him (just need a quick heal after the fight) and I can do champions all night long without any worry. I do most of the DPS of course, but as commando, things don't last long once you have a fully charged up cell and you can unload 8 or so charged bolts in a row followed by a full auto without any problem ammo wise.

 

Tanks need defense based gear, which is hard to aquire while leveling, even more so for droids.

Being Cybertech, I can safely say that most droid gear is actually 100% defensive. Do NOT use any custom gear, just go with the blues and research them into purples. They are by far best in slot as you level.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Kemorand

[CygnisJunior]

Why don't you post pictures instead? I'll go first.

 

Companion: http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9175/npcc.jpg 24.25% damage reduction. Only slot he's missing is the implant and I'm pretty sure those don't give armor anyway.

 

Me: http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/7590/playerf.jpg 22.77% damage reduction. Worse gear.

 

My tank only has 1.48% better damage reduction than my healer character and only because he has better gear. If gear was equal mine would actually be better. It was better yesterday, but I crafted him another couple of blue pieces before bed. Where's your proof that Qyzen is better than healers at tanking, much less tanks? I'd love to see it. It would give me hope for the future. Please show it to me.

 

So he has ~14% more HP than you, ~2% more avoidance, and 5% reduced damage due to his shield, and 1.5% reduced damage from armor. In addition, he has one ability that gives him 20% more armor, and another ability which will reduce his enemies damage by 5%. And hes even missing a piece of gear!

 

So all that added up makes him like 30-40% more tanky than you.

 

Also, all the armor and shielding in the world doesn't do anything against elemental and internal damage, which unfortunately for tanks is quite common in this game.

[JCommando]

Khem Val sucks at 45... Dunno why he was doing fine a few levels before.

[maxbaby]

M1-4X has better gear than my commando and less damage reduction. I'm in mostly greens and he's in mostly blues because I know cybertech. Hitpoints are virtually the same. If it's a weak hit he might be able to take one more hit than me, but even that is unlikely. What kind of "tank" has the same HP and less armor than a healer/DPS class with worse gear?! I get that tank companions were OP in beta, but that doesn't mean they needed to make them completely worthless.

 

Agree. Aric is the best. Yuun is OK too.

But Aric is my all time fav.

He can take 2 elites with my healing. Win-win.

[raidyr]

Kaliyo is a pretty poor tank. I have her kitted out in the best quest items that I can get (unfortunately her use of heavy armor with aim means the pickings are slim) but she still goes down hard. Her damage is decent, and she can hold threat well enough unless I unload my Snipers burst, but survivability is absolutely garbage.

[rocketeerabc]

So he has ~14% more HP than you, ~2% more avoidance, and 5% reduced damage due to his shield, and 1.5% reduced damage from armor. In addition, he has one ability that gives him 20% more armor, and another ability which will reduce his enemies damage by 5%. And hes even missing a piece of gear!

 

So all that added up makes him like 30-40% more tanky than you.

 

Also, all the armor and shielding in the world doesn't do anything against elemental and internal damage, which unfortunately for tanks is quite common in this game.

 

Which is why you want to kill stuff quickly, because death is the ultimate CC. Again, from a healer pov, you can CC atleast 1 target for atleast 60 sec. Chances are the CC will be on the strongest target, lets say a elite. If you take that one out of the fight and the rest of the group is still to strong to kill with a dps companion and your CDs before the elite gets out, chances are you are complaining on a very high level and noone else would be able to do what you tried anyway.

[Democritum]

I 100% agree with you. Kem Val is butter in the hands of the mobs.

 

But for me the problem begin to be serious on Voss where the quests forces you to fight elites that kill your companion in 5 seconds.

 

Putting DOTs and spaming heals on my companion is not fun for me. Should I spec heal to level on Voss? The Mobs in there are not balanced.

[Areka]

Before I totally found good gear for M1-4X, we were like this. Not really good. I don't have a picture of the after when all blue geared but he had more life than me and some more armour. We was definately good.

 

But I stopped using him because Vik (despite the hits to affection) is easier to gear. Right now we are like this (with the best gear I can craft at that level in the armour department). And he is good too.

 

As long as those two can get the enemies off me, I can alternate as Healer/DPS as needed (Vik allows me more "grenades/mortar" combo for quick wipe of minor groups).

[Game_Hermit]

Not sure where the OP comes from but my 4X at 36 is quite the awesome tank. Since I'm cybertech, he's covered in purples, top of the crop at every level.

- 10.9k HP without any Presence stims, about 11.5k with one.

- 28% base armor + Flameguard up constantly (puts him at 33%) which is what makes his armor really.

- 14.1% defense and just a bit above default in shield/shield absorb.

Have't met any other tank able to match that at that level.

Any DPS or healer companion wearing the same gear could match that. There's literally nothing he has over the other companions on defense apart from being able to equip a shield which doesn't really do much by itself. I don't see why everyone is so against giving them half the armor bonus of players and an actual tanking cooldown or two.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Game_Hermit

[Kemorand]

Any DPS or healer companion wearing the same gear could match that. There's literally nothing he has over the other companions on defense apart from being able to equip a shield which doesn't really do much by itself.

 

26% chance to absorb 28% damage is kinda nice in itself though. Otherwise you're just arguing that nobody would ever needs a tank, even one played by a real player. I won't get into that though.

 

A tank companion can and will get aggro no matter what however, which means, since I'm heal spec, I don't have to worry about my HP or mobs hitting other players while in groups, and have no pushback during DPS/Healing. Also, seeing how fast I get wasted by even a strong of my level, I see no point in even taking the risk.

 

Also, in HC4 (or groups in general), your DPS or heal companion (heals are the worst, their AI is not optimized) would just not cut it whatsoever compared to another player doing the same thing, while 4X does just fine as a tank, better than most players tanking actually. Since in groups the only two important things are Heal and Tank, that makes 100% sure that I got that base covered no matter what. Rest in the group can be whatever they want, I don't care, I'm always walking with what's needed, and I control it.

 

Now, if I could, during leveling, keep ALL my companions top geared, of course, I'd vary here and there. But I just can't so, to me, focusing on 4X, especially since I'm cybertech, is a no-brainer.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Kemorand

[Perforate]

My Xalek has 16% damred in blue gear and tanking stance and I have 19% ( I am an inqusitor )... ridiculous.

[Jackobite]

I have to side with the Hermit on most of this, I dont like my sage tank companion Q, His ability to actualy grab a mob and hold agro I dont question, I dont think Iv ever pealed a mob off him with my crappy dps /p

 

I do question his actual "Im a tank I can take damage" because imho he cant take damage as well as I think he should.

A Tank to me = low damage and High survivability.

[Tiaa]

Going to agree with the title rather than posting a bunch of drivel that basically says the samething.

[Frenor]

Trust me when I say tank companions are not AS useless as you make them out to be. An heres why. From a trooper perspective anyway.

 

Healer/commando with a Tank/M1-4X companion = quite capable of doing 2+ 4+ stuff (In my case since I usually end up 3+ levels over the content I'm doing on a regular basis an have a cybertech who feeds aug/mods/armor onto companions stuff every 5 levels.) due to me being able to control heals aswell as have harder hitting ones not reliant on cool down, lay down dps in between and he just coasts on auto pilot. 2+ 4+ also gets manageable since I bring cc along with me.

 

Tank/Vanguard with a Healer/Dhorne companion = Able to just coast through normal mobs, somewhat able to do 2+ stuff but cuts it a bit close sometimes due to weak heals already being kept in check by cooldowns aswell. Doing the 4+ stuff? ha good luck with that unless you fill the other two slots with some cc (Dhorne can cc but she locks down one target with a channel for 8 seconds and shes not healing during this time) theirs no way your doing it without med packs, very well cordinated dps (Ie marking things in kill order to focus fire, utilizing stuns/knockbacks.) because otherwise your just gonna die anyway from your npc healer not able to keep up with the damage that three elite an two strong packs can punish you with.

[Gradivus]

M1-4X has better gear than my commando and less damage reduction. I'm in mostly greens and he's in mostly blues because I know cybertech. Hitpoints are virtually the same. If it's a weak hit he might be able to take one more hit than me, but even that is unlikely. What kind of "tank" has the same HP and less armor than a healer/DPS class with worse gear?! I get that tank companions were OP in beta, but that doesn't mean they needed to make them completely worthless.

 

I play an agent, and I'd be totally screwed without Kalyo, my tanking companion. I simply couldn't complete any quest that involved fighting several strong opponents (which happens in almot every quest).

[FerrusPA]

Going to agree with the title rather than posting a bunch of drivel that basically says the samething.

 

I like your style.

[Necrolepsy]

M1-4X has better gear than my commando and less damage reduction. I'm in mostly greens and he's in mostly blues because I know cybertech. Hitpoints are virtually the same. If it's a weak hit he might be able to take one more hit than me, but even that is unlikely. What kind of "tank" has the same HP and less armor than a healer/DPS class with worse gear?! I get that tank companions were OP in beta, but that doesn't mean they needed to make them completely worthless.

 

I agree on all points except he does have more HP than me, he's in full blues (same gear levels as me) and he has about 2k more hp. His absorption does suck though and that will surely be addressed in a later patch.

[bludwork]

If you can't heal, having a tank companion is stupid.

[Kemorand]

If you can't heal, having a tank companion is stupid.

 

Totally agree

[Hathur]

OP is forgetting to consider that there is more to tanking than damage reduction (plus the fact he's not taking companion's shields into account).... threat... you're forgetting about threat.

 

Hotkeyed properly a tank companion in my experience holds aggro / threat on enemies than the majority of player tanks (cus they're dumb / lazy / ignorant)... can they mitigate damage like a player tank? No. But they mitigate damage well enough if healed by a dedicated player healer (scoundrel / sage specd for healing).

 

4 man heroics are easily doable with 2 players using companions so long as 1 of the players is a competent heal spec and brings a well geared tank companion... it's often easier than a full 4 man team simply because there's so many stupid tank players who let the healer get mangled to death and have no clue how to hold threat on enemies... a healer managing their own tank companion can keep all the aggro of every mob on the tank companion and just spam heal it to victory every time.

 

I wouldn't really try it in Flashpoints, but heroics? It's actually preferable most of the time to work with only 2 or 3 players and let the healer use their tank companion instead.

[Marak]

I did an experiment last night regarding this.

 

I'm a DPS Guardian and I'm a cybertech with a lot of Corellia comms to blow so I bought orange gear for ALL of my companions and they're all rocking level 50 orange/blue everything in every slot.

 

I don't really have a lot of presence so that doesn't factor into my experiment much.

 

 

I then proceeded to do my Ilum dailies and whatnot while messing around with each companion. This was by no means a strict scientific test, but I did surprise myself with some general findings.

 

 

Prior to this I would generally roll with Doc, my healer, almost all the time ever since I got him. A little slower than rocking double DPS, but we were fairly unstoppable. So that's the frame of mind I'm taking going into this.

 

 

My two dps pets, Kira (MDPS Jedi) and Rusk (RDPS Trooper) were about even in their usefulness as was expected. Both my tanks are rocking like 10-13% defense and 32-34% shield chance with ~30% absorption. And they are beast mode. A fully geared tank companion is a totally different experience than an undergeared one when you are leveling.

 

 

We 3-manned Directive 7 and False Emperor this morning with my Scourge tanking both with absolutely 0 problems. My healer friend even went so far as to say "He's infinitely better at not dying than you are" (referring to when I would throw on a shield and go defensive stance in full DPS gear to tank for our groups flashpoints)

 

 

Tanks aren't useless. They just aren't as useful for leveling.

[Mephismo]

If you can't heal, having a tank companion is stupid.

 

Yes I go with this guy:)