Bioware: Allow Advanced Class Respec!

[Anunanrah]

no, no and uuuh no, advanced classes are designed to create 8 different classes in the long run. we do need to have the ability to respec our talent trees ( dual spec ) for those that need some versatility but respeccing the advanced classes would only water down the indivualism of the classes.

[sonickat]

In traditional MMOs, classes are defined by a set of conditions and constraints assigned to a given character. These classes are differentiated by the ability to:

 

• wield different weapons
  
• wear different armor
  
• use different abilities
  
• perform different roles
  

 

All of these attributes are found in the Advanced Class system of Star Wars: The Old Republic.

 

The true fact is that Bioware is not beholden to any mythical standard from other games. They can do as they choose. That said the replay-ability of this game is entirely dependent on the stories. Even playing a second class with a different story the second time through, its easy to find yourself spamming the space bar and 1,2,3 to get through the non class specific dialog.

 

Some of the players who love their class but hate their advanced class are going to take their money and spend it somewhere else the question is does blizzard care about those dollars? That is what it comes down to. Are you willing to follow through and take control the only way you can to impact change.

[Epicrisis]

If we are allowed to respec Advanced Classes, it should come at a great cost. Maybe a long quest chain that requires a group at some point. Preferably taking 4-5 hours.

 

That combined with having to find all new gear, since most Advanced Classes have much different gear, would be acceptable. Even a coin cost at the end, or some material requirement.

 

You already got more choice than normal when you were allowed to pick your advanced class after 10 levels, rather than right away at character creation.

[Sabarok]

Some of the players who love their class but hate their advanced class are going to take their money and spend it somewhere else the question is does blizzard care about those dollars? That is what it comes down to. Are you willing to follow through and take control the only way you can to impact change.

 

If they are so close to leaving and unwilling to play an alt, what is the long term value of those players vs the value of any players that they would lose by implementing the change?

 

This is a highly controversial and very unpopular feature. If implementing this meant that 50,000 players that were ready to quit would stay for 1 more month and then quit anyway, but at the cost of 100,000 players quitting now, and another few hundred thousand getting bored of the game a few months earlier than they would have otherwise.

 

The numbers are pulled out from hyperspace, they are only there to demonstrate by example my opinion that what it would save in subs pales in comparison to what it would cost them, some upfront, but a larger number over time, including those very subs that this feature was there to "save".

 

Throwing away even 1 paying customers to go after 1 who has already decided not to pay is bad business. They have already shown themselves to be unreliable subs.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Sabarok

[sonickat]

If we are allowed to respec Advanced Classes, it should come at a great cost. Maybe a long quest chain that requires a group at some point. Preferably taking 4-5 hours.

 

That combined with having to find all new gear, since most Advanced Classes have much different gear, would be acceptable. Even a coin cost at the end, or some material requirement.

 

You already got more choice than normal when you were allowed to pick your advanced class after 10 levels, rather than right away at character creation.

 

Coin Yes. Expensive - only if it is being done regularly. Quest and Group - just No.

[Chromiie]

If Bioware had been lazy

 

This made me lol so hard.

[sonickat]

If they are so close to leaving and unwilling to play an alt, what is the long term value of those players vs the value of any players that they would lose by implementing the change?

 

This is a highly controversial and very unpopular feature. If implementing this meant that 50,000 players that were ready to quit would stay for 1 more month and then quit anyway, but at the cost of 100,000 players quitting now, and another few hundred thousand getting bored of the game a few months earlier than they would have otherwise.

 

The numbers are pulled out from hyperspace, they are only there to show my opinion that what it would save in subs pales in comparison to what it would cost them, some upfront, but a larger number over time, including those very subs that this feature was there to "save".

 

Throwing away even 1 paying customers to go after 1 who has already decided not to pay is bad business. They have already shown themselves to be unreliable subs.

 

99% of Statistics are made up.

 

This game is intended for a more casual audience. Having played mmorpgs for over a decade, in my experience the customer demographic of this game strays heavily towards those players who have no mmorpg experience. Which have chosen to pickup this title because its a Bioware or Star Wars license.

 

Bioware must be mindful of this fact that in order to keep its release numbers its going to need to have a stable game that is enjoyable for its demographic.

 

Most of the audience probably doesn't even understand the difference between a tank, dps, or healer and what implication those choices will have on their enjoyment in the future. Their going to sink hundres of hours in to leveling rather than 40-60 most of us veterans will take and realize they don't like their advanced class - what do you think those players are going to do? Some may stay but some will go.

 

People threatened to leave when WoW introduced respecs and now its part of every major game thats been released. Their subscription numbers actually went up after implementation not down, despite people leaving.

 

*edit* just realized i called bioware blizzard in the post before --- oops.

Edited February 3, 2012 by sonickat

[Necrosia]

No, it will never happen.

 

Better not happen, i have two inquisitors

[aznthecapn]

Allowing limited swapping between ACs while leveling is fine. It should be in place to allow people a chance to experience both playstyles and decide which they prefer. Allowing AC changing at max level cuts the legs out of the leveling gameplay and halves the number of classes people can roll not to mention half the classes have dramatically different playstyles based on AC.

 

While leveling? Yes - with limits.

 

At max level? No.

 

People threatened to leave when WoW introduced respecs and now its part of every major game thats been released. Their subscription numbers actually went up after implementation not down, despite people leaving.

 

I think you mean dual spec since I recall respeccing being in game from the beginning. Its not the same thing as changing your class (or as SWTOR calls it, Advanced Class).

[Uluain]

The decision that you were warned could not be changed in the future? No.

 

Take responsibility for your own decisions. Roll another character if you wish to play a different class. That's how it works. It works that way for a reason. Levelling with a class is how you learn to play it effectively through practice.

[Sabarok]

99% of Statistics are made up.

 

In this case, it's because a class change while keeping your level has never been done before in an MMO.

 

This game is intended for a more casual audience. Having played mmorpgs for over a decade, in my experience the customer demographic of this game strays heavily towards those players who have no mmorpg experience. Which have chosen to pickup this title because its a Bioware or Star Wars license.

 

Bioware must be mindful of this fact that in order to keep its release numbers its going to need to have a stable game that is enjoyable for its demographic.

 

Most of the audience probably doesn't even understand the difference between a tank, dps, or healer and what implication those choices will have on their enjoyment in the future. Their going to sink hundres of hours in to leveling rather than 40-60 most of us veterans will take and realize they don't like their advanced class - what do you think those players are going to do? Some may stay but some will go.

 

I would agree that the customer demographic of SWTOR brings in more players who are new to MMORPGs than any other MMO since WoW, but that most players are coming from other MMOs or other RPGs where there is a concept of class based gameplay, and most would also know the concept of the basic roles.

 

WoW brought more new players to the genre than any other MMO before or since, and they all learned there how to play classes. Most of the pro-class change players I've seen post here are coming from WoW.

 

Those casuals that don't like their AC after "hundreds of hours", what happens to those that realize the other AC is one they hate too? Do we let those players now change their base class to keep them, or do you let them go after having already implemented a major change in order to keep them?

 

People threatened to leave when WoW introduced respecs and now its part of every major game thats been released. Their subscription numbers actually went up after implementation not down, despite people leaving.

 

I never played WoW, but was it the design of the game that players level 2 characters to gain access to different parts of the skill tree? Had I been there, I wouldn't have been predicting doom & gloom over it. When Anarchy Online was young, I was in favour of skill resets.

 

The difference between skills/specs and ACs is that your character has full access to the skill tree for the entire duration of their gameplay. You are picking and choosing among different specs. You do not pick & choose which abilities you are going to use across ACs. Trying to equate skills/specs and ACs is meaningless.

 

I categorize things into two categories: Definition and Customization.

 

Definitions are things that define the character. In SWTOR, those would be the faction, base class, and advanced class. These are the core aspects from which everything else is determined. I feel much of the value in definitions is that they are permanent, but the downside is that the permanency means that there are fewer from which to choose. It creates a supply & demand of these, and since players can't change them at a whim, it gives these their value. Without definitions, you would be playing a game where 1 character can do everything. That would be a game without definitions. Final Fantasy XII is a game where classes aren't a definition, but they still require classes to be individually leveled (something the pro-class change isn't even asking for).

 

The bulk of the gameplay will be determined by these definitions. Different MMOs have different lists. In LOTRO, I would qualify race as part of the definition whereas here I see it as more of a customization since it is pretty much just a cosmetic choice. In LOTRO, I wouldn't feel racial changes as being appropriate, but here, I can see it justified to be wanting to change their race.

 

Customization are things that personalize a character to suite the player. In SWTOR, these are the character creation visuals, races, cosmetics, the skill tree, alignment, and aspects of the companion system. I believe players should have as much freedom as possible in their customization with one of the values of customization is a large variety of possible options.

 

People threaten over the silliest of things. I'm not talking about threats, I'm talking about the impact on the subscribers. The biggest impact will be is that, with this feature, more people will get bored faster than they would have otherwise, and it would be a larger number than the feature would save. I also believe that the players this would save are the ones least likely to continue subscribing with the change anyway. Since no MMO has ever done this, it's impossible to know for sure, but it's not anything comparable to a skill reset. This is a class change, no matter how the pro-change side tries to camouflage it under a different name

 

It's Bioware risking existing paying customers to retain customers who are leaving, and based on this thread, there are several times more players who don't want than who do want it.

[Vylarian]

I agree with this! This would make the game a LOT more fun!

[Cindikle]

Then why not just change it all?

 

All warriors are Tank/dps/dps

All BH are tank/heal/dps

All Si are tank/heal/dps

All Ia's are melee dps/ranged dps/heals

 

Now just change all the secondary weapon setups to support said changes

-Weapons equipped in secondary slot only add to damage for example.

 

That's about how dull you're asking things to become.

If they wanted 4 classes they would of done so.

 

 

Think of the system as a Rogue vs Feral Druid(dps). They work the same in a lot of ways. Just because of that doesn't mean someone should be able to swap between them instead of rerolling.

 

In the idea of putting a time limit on it, unless you make it very short(a week or less) you could probably level and maintain the gear of said other AC just as easily.

[Touchbass]

This is a really tough issue, AC's are clearly different playstyles and you can't argue it's a different spec. I don't think there should be AC's respecs but there needs to be something done to make the leveling up process for the other AC faster or more diversified. The game is too linear to justify leveling up the other AC for too many people, including myself. The only solution I see is using the other faction for your other AC.

[AzKnc]

Advanced classes are nothing but glorified specs, it was originally possible to switch them and that's the way it should be.

 

There are people (loads actually) who don't want to use a different character to use their main's alternative specs, not because they're lazy but because they simply don't want to use another character.

 

The choice of removing the option was clearly dictated by money, because everytime someone rerolls the same class to pick the other set of specs, it's all time they're actually paying for. But in terms of gameplay, it would definitely be better to be able to switch, the quality of life as far as grouping/role filling is concerned would raise dramatically for everyone, but especially for casuals (the obvious target of this game) and small guilds that don't want to rely on inviting 97459674964875 useless members or use alts when person x or y is missing.

Edited February 4, 2012 by AzKnc

[laslaya]

I'm totally for allowing this change simply because giving people a choice on what they wanted to be at such an early level when their only judgement on the class is a paragraph or two description only makes for poor choices.

[Touchbass]

I'm totally for allowing this change simply because giving people a choice on what they wanted to be at such an early level when their only judgement on the class is a paragraph or two description only makes for poor choices.

 

The problem is the AC play so differently really couldn't keep it up any longer. There should of never been any AC to begin with, there should of been 8 seperate classes with different stories.

[AsheraII]

The problem is the AC play so differently really couldn't keep it up any longer. There should of never been any AC to begin with, there should of been 8 seperate classes with different stories.

This. The only thing we really need is 16 characterslots/server really, so we can play every single AC on one single server. The stories allow for variety in how they play out already, so there already is a lot of replay value there. We just miss the character slots to do it.

[havok_bloodcraft]

I have been absent from this thread for a bit but let me offer a constructive idea instead of saying hey bio/ea you should devote time and money to create a system for which I will then give you pretend in game money for, someone says hey bio/ea I would be willing to pay 15 usd to be able to switch ac no more often than every 30 days per character as is normal procedure for this kind of feature examples including server transfers and name changes. 1 time per 30 days is hard to abuse and will quell opposition to it easily enough and offering to pay real money as opposed to credits (effectively monopoly money) offers an incentive for the developers to actually want to do this.

[Bludjinni]

I have been absent from this thread for a bit but let me offer a constructive idea instead of saying hey bio/ea you should devote time and money to create a system for which I will then give you pretend in game money for, someone says hey bio/ea I would be willing to pay 15 usd to be able to switch ac no more often than every 30 days per character as is normal procedure for this kind of feature examples including server transfers and name changes. 1 time per 30 days is hard to abuse and will quell opposition to it easily enough and offering to pay real money as opposed to credits (effectively monopoly money) offers an incentive for the developers to actually want to do this.

 

Did you honestly suggest this? I'm DONE with cash shops, I'm so done paying for games and then being spammed with cash items and options, just get over that, please. If they put development time in this instead of the heaps and heaps of issues plaguing the game instead, that for me would be plenty reason to quit. That's not having priorities straight (or a sense of honesty, for that matter). It's theft.

 

Anyway I'm with the Please Don't group. I rolled a sniper and sort of regret I didn't go Operative, but I'm just rerolling one now. The Advanced Classes are vastly different. Leveling teaches you how to play, say, your assassin. You can't just respec at 50 and expect to do properly, because you'll have no clue what all those skills do.

 

Furthermore, it will severely decrease the amount of content available. Essentially, you're going from 8 classes to having 4. Having a lot of classes keeps people playing. After I'm done leveling these 4 classes, I'd have no reason to reroll anything. In current light: I have a 50 assassin, and a 42 mercenary. I rolled a sage, and will be rolling a powertech (whatever it's called Rep-side). If I could just respec my assassin to sorcerer, then why would I ever reroll anything else (and thus keep playing).

 

It's bad business on top of it being a bad idea. I don't want to be forced into a sorcerer role either right now because they do a lot better than assassins. It will cause lazyness on the side of class balance as people can "always respec one of their 5 specs".

 

No, this is really one of the worst ideas ever. Just reroll if you want to play something else, don't be lazy.

[Bludjinni]

I'm totally for allowing this change simply because giving people a choice on what they wanted to be at such an early level when their only judgement on the class is a paragraph or two description only makes for poor choices.

 

If people are serious, there's google, there's a swtorwiki, there's an official page. It's stated loud and clear it's permanent, if people don't care to check what they're getting into, then I don't know what to tell you.

[havok_bloodcraft]

Did you honestly suggest this? I'm DONE with cash shops, I'm so done paying for games and then being spammed with cash items and options, just get over that, please. If they put development time in this instead of the heaps and heaps of issues plaguing the game instead, that for me would be plenty reason to quit. That's not having priorities straight (or a sense of honesty, for that matter). It's theft.

 

Anyway I'm with the Please Don't group. I rolled a sniper and sort of regret I didn't go Operative, but I'm just rerolling one now. The Advanced Classes are vastly different. Leveling teaches you how to play, say, your assassin. You can't just respec at 50 and expect to do properly, because you'll have no clue what all those skills do.

 

Furthermore, it will severely decrease the amount of content available. Essentially, you're going from 8 classes to having 4. Having a lot of classes keeps people playing. After I'm done leveling these 4 classes, I'd have no reason to reroll anything. In current light: I have a 50 assassin, and a 42 mercenary. I rolled a sage, and will be rolling a powertech (whatever it's called Rep-side). If I could just respec my assassin to sorcerer, then why would I ever reroll anything else (and thus keep playing).

 

It's bad business on top of it being a bad idea. I don't want to be forced into a sorcerer role either right now because they do a lot better than assassins. It will cause lazyness on the side of class balance as people can "always respec one of their 5 specs".

 

No, this is really one of the worst ideas ever. Just reroll if you want to play something else, don't be lazy.

 

check my post history I am against this also I am just tired of them only using I want it as a defense I beleive that they will not get AC respec because they are only offering the argument of I am bored let me have 10h worths of stuff to do before I leave and unsub point of fact some guy did that already unsubbed because he couldn't swap ac and he didn't want to play the hour it would take to get to lv 10 again. then proceeded to explain that. so as a person with a little bit of intelligence and considering they are going to just keep posting anyways I figured I would hand them a better argument.

[Vlacke]

This. The only thing we really need is 16 characterslots/server really, so we can play every single AC on one single server. The stories allow for variety in how they play out already, so there already is a lot of replay value there. We just miss the character slots to do it.

 

I agree that we definitely need more character slots.

[Vlacke]

AC's are clearly different playstyles and you can't argue it's a different spec.

 

This is spot on, and that is exactly what people who are advocating AC change option cannot comprehend apparently.

Not just different spec, but a different class altogether, with different gear, different play style etc.

 

They should provide more character slots so if someone wants to have for example a Jedi Guardian and a Sentinel and 2 Bounty Hunters, Powertech and a Mercanary, but also wants to level 8 different characters for the story, can do so without slot limitations.

[Carthil]

I vote no on this as well. It's like saying you should be able to make a warrior into a paladin in WoW just because you decided you didn't like the warrior playstyle. ACs are not just different skill trees, they are different classes. Not to mention it takes all of three hours to level to 10 on a new toon.

 

Sidenote: If you really have the time to level 16 different toons so you can have every single class on the same server, more power to you, but come on!! 8 slots per server is enough.