Expertise is a giant mistake, didn't you learn from Trion?

[SandTrout]

\

yea lets go back to old school pvp where raiders would enter a battleground and rofl stomp everyone with out trying...that'll be fun! saddly expertise is needed to separate the pvpers from raiders and give those that pvp a clear cut advantage.

Same gear available at PvP vendors as can be achieved through raiding.

 

No gear gap, no issue, no expertise.

[stevesetoe]

Would you mind if your PvP gear lost its expertise, but got all of its other stats buffed up to match the Raid gear?

 

Not at all.

 

I just don't want to be forced to PVE to be able to compete in PVP.

Edited January 15, 2012 by stevesetoe

[Skaarrj]

Yeah, get rid of expertise. There's not a good enough reason that anyone came come up with for its inclusion.

[Mikisoq]

Keep pvp seperate from pve, real pvpers dont need gear to kill less experienced people in 3 hits.

 

easiest solution would be to make bolstering increase lowbies as of now, and decrease the stats of highbies down to equal terms. now if you tell me it's unfair lets say new people unsub because they have to grind for 2 months before they can compete with other people.

 

i see this many many times, 3 people gang up on a fully geared lvl 50 and they just get struck down because the lvl 50 takes much less damage, does way higher damage and heals themselves for much more. they aren't better they just have unfair advantages.

 

pve and pvp are already kept seperate, take a look at all skills in the game. they have effects that only works in pve so that the skills aren't underpowered in pve and overpowered in pvp.

 

i see no reason to not take it a step further and keeping pvp and pve entirely seperate like guild wars, they did it for a reason because it's VERY hard to mix it up.

[Killadrix]

Uhm those numbers in those days would probably translate to 3 or 4 million players in todays market (remember there where far less mmo players in the pre wow era then there are now)

 

Oh and the running into the ground was the toa addon (2003) which was a total fiasco ^^

 

I think attempting to call it the equivalent of 3-4 million is a far stretch.

 

The point I am trying to make is that balancing a game around 250k and less is far different than balancing a game around a million or more.

[SandTrout]

Not at all.

 

I just don't want to be forced to PVE to be able to compete in PVP.

And I don't want to force anyone to PvE in order to PvP. I wan't to make both aspects of the game available to all players, even if they got their gear via PvP exclusively or PvE exclusively. I want people to be able to enjoy the game.

 

Its a game. I want people to enjoy every part of it as much as possible.

 

This is apparently a bad idea for people to be able to play the whole game, rather than just specific parts.

[stevesetoe]

And I don't want to force anyone to PvE in order to PvP. I wan't to make both aspects of the game available to all players, even if they got their gear via PvP exclusively or PvE exclusively. I want people to be able to enjoy the game.

 

Its a game. I want people to enjoy every part of it as much as possible.

 

This is apparently a bad idea for people to be able to play the whole game, rather than just specific parts.

 

As mentioned before, if they only had one set of endgame gear which cost x amount of PVE token OR x amount of PVP tokens, that'd work for me.

 

there'd be no reason for expertise then, and people could, like you say just do anything and end up with the same gear.

 

Since the stats on high end PVE gear are actually higher than battlemaster gear though, I'd still like to keep my expertise

 

But yeh, I get your point and I figure you get mine aswell.

 

We basically agree on this matter.

[Killadrix]

And I don't want to force anyone to PvE in order to PvP. I wan't to make both aspects of the game available to all players, even if they got their gear via PvP exclusively or PvE exclusively. I want people to be able to enjoy the game.

 

Its a game. I want people to enjoy every part of it as much as possible.

 

This is apparently a bad idea for people to be able to play the whole game, rather than just specific parts.

 

Again, you are thinking of it from the "I want this", "I want that", "this is how I should be able to play the game" angle.

 

The problem is that not everyone is you and not everyone wants to play the game the way you do (not to even mention how your version of how the system should work is extremely flawed from a global design perspective).

[SandTrout]

I think attempting to call it the equivalent of 3-4 million is a far stretch.

 

The point I am trying to make is that balancing a game around 250k and less is far different than balancing a game around a million or more.

I'm going to call bs on this one. Either the game is balanced, or it's not. The players are going to be split up into multiple shards anyways, so the number of players simply means you have more shards (there were I think 12-13 DAoC servers compared to 80+ TOR servers). Population density would be the primary driver for claiming that a 1M subscriber game balanced different than a 250K subscriber game, but because more shards are installed to handle the population, the effective population density is no different. The mechanisms of balancing the game do not change because you have 20 shards with 10k people on them instead of 5 shards with 2.5k people on them.

 

You're really grasping at straws here, man.

[Snakeloki]

This man speaks the truth

[sumfizz]

I couldn't agree more with op's post. Rift was an ungodly pvp nightmare, and when I found out there was a pvp stat in this game Rift was the first thing that sprang to mind. I just bowed my head and sighed.

 

And if it wasn't silly gear that unbalanced everything it was the fact that even though each class had several specs to play you were still funneled into ONE just to be viable in pvp. I bet clerics are still overpowered in that crappy game.

Edited January 15, 2012 by sumfizz

[Knifewrench]

I facepalm when people think that a successful MMO is built on telling people who want accumulation for their efforts "No." Go play a shooter or SC2 if you want an equal playing field that badly... or climb the same mountain that these people did. Either way, it stops you from griping over a system that's just not suited to your wants... or maybe it doesn't. That's just you. Edited January 15, 2012 by Knifewrench

[SandTrout]

Again, you are thinking of it from the "I want this", "I want that", "this is how I should be able to play the game" angle.

 

The problem is that not everyone is you and not everyone wants to play the game the way you do (not to even mention how your version of how the system should work is extremely flawed from a global design perspective).

The problem is that apparently you don't want people to play the game by forcing an arbitrary block between to two major aspects.

 

You're forcing them to choose half of the game that they won't be able to seriously participate in.

 

You are taking the game away from people. I want to be able to play it.

 

Edit: The distinction is that I'm not forcing anyone to play what I want them to, I'm letting them play, if they want. Expertise tells people: Pick one, and only one. Some people want only one, but what about those of us that want half of each?

Edited January 15, 2012 by SandTrout

[Killadrix]

I'm going to call bs on this one. Either the game is balanced, or it's not. The players are going to be split up into multiple shards anyways, so the number of players simply means you have more shards (there were I think 12-13 DAoC servers compared to 80+ TOR servers). Population density would be the primary driver for claiming that a 1M subscriber game balanced different than a 250K subscriber game, but because more shards are installed to handle the population, the effective population density is no different. The mechanisms of balancing the game do not change because you have 20 shards with 10k people on them instead of 5 shards with 2.5k people on them.

 

You're really grasping at straws here, man.

 

Ok, I am going to end this discussion with you simply because you are fully incapable of attempting to understand anything other than "how does expertise effect my game experience" even though it has been laid out for you in no uncertain terms numerous times in this very thread.

 

You are placing ZERO thought into the repercussions of offering PVP and PVP progression paths for IDENTICAL GEAR when there are amazing examples of current MMO's which have attempted THIS VERY THING, failed and were forced to take other paths which has resulted in current games using the current mechanics.

 

Nobody woke up one morning and said: "Hey, I have an idea which I really think will ruin my $100,000,000+ game! Let's arbitrarily tack a PVP stat onto gear and SCREW EVERYONE OVER MUAHAHAHAHAH!"

 

I wish for nothing more right now than for you to wake up tomorrow and magically be the lead designer of this game so you can put into place your naive and narrowminded ideas so I can sit back and sip on an ice cool drink while watching this game fall apart due to the unintented consequences of your bullheaded ideas.

 

While I know you will place very little thought into it just as you do everything else, I recommend you stop trying to turn this game into something it's not (DAoC, perhaps?), and perhaps play something more to your liking.

 

Best wishes,

 

Killadrix

[Treebyrn]

Again, you are thinking of it from the "I want this", "I want that", "this is how I should be able to play the game" angle.

 

The problem is that not everyone is you and not everyone wants to play the game the way you do (not to even mention how your version of how the system should work is extremely flawed from a global design perspective).

 

And not everyone is you and not everyone wants to play the game the way you do! Maybe I am naive but I prefer systems that encourage the masses to participate in so game companies would realize that there is a huge pvp fan base and we will support the game as long as the pvp is not some side game that was thrown in at the last minute.

 

Even though I do not think expertise is needed I could still tolerate it if the system was designed so we could pvp 1 - 49 and be at least half way to the expertise cap, as it stand now unless you are very lucky when you hit 50 you get slapped in the face by a big expertise wall (really going to fell like this when the 50's bracket comes out). Doing this on one character may not be that bad (for some) but a lot of people like to play more than one character when end game gets a little boring and the thought of having to go through the whole pvp grind again may just turn people off all together.

[Xtinkt]

If only they were making it so lvl 50s would have their own bracket.

 

o wait.

 

 

And if you are worried about not having enough expertise the second you hit 50 then you are an idiot. You have to work for it.. and its really not a lot of work. Between dailies, weeklies and commendations you can store up its possible to get upwards of 10 bags within the first 2 days with moderate lvl of pvping. I hit 50 last week and I'm almost full champ with about 5-7 games of pvp a day. And no I have not gotten too lucky with bags. I just have gotten a lot of bags.

 

And if you aren't a loner and play with a couple friends winning games becomes a cinch.

[Stunstun]

1. The major draw point of MMOs for most players is getting better gear for your toons. When you have he best possible gear the game dulls quickly for most ppl and they quit until new content/tiers come out. So having two different sets of gear to go after that are both needed to be the best in different areas makes the game last longer for the majority of the players.

 

2. If you could get the best possible gear for PVPing out of PVE everyone here would be complaining about how its so unfair the people in the good PVE guilds with no lives come in and destroy them with their superior gear. If you try to solve this by making the best possible PVP gear easily obtainable you run into problem 1.

 

It's this this circle why there has to be two different sets of gear, one better for PVE and one better for PVP. An "expertise" stat is just the easy way to make one set of gear clearly better for PVP.

[Treebyrn]

If only they were making it so lvl 50s would have their own bracket.

 

o wait.

 

 

And if you are worried about not having enough expertise the second you hit 50 then you are an idiot. You have to work for it.. and its really not a lot of work. Between dailies, weeklies and commendations you can store up its possible to get upwards of 10 bags within the first 2 days with moderate lvl of pvping. I hit 50 last week and I'm almost full champ with about 5-7 games of pvp a day. And no I have not gotten too lucky with bags. I just have gotten a lot of bags.

 

And if you aren't a loner and play with a couple friends winning games becomes a cinch.

 

I had won a lot of matches on my first two characters but the problem for me is I can not really decide what class suits me best.... so now I have 3 characters. I will end up at some point getting at least full champ gear on one of my characters, its just the thought of having to do the same old warzone grind everytime a new pvp tier is released so I can compete gets me bummed out. I have done this grind many times in other games and I am not sure I want to go through it all over again. Oh and for the record Rift gave me the biggest mmo burn out I have ever had because of doing Port of Scion over and over and over again just to rank up to buy the best pvp gear.

 

Perhaps if world pvp actually worked this grind may actually be fun but from what I heard Illum is a mess atm.

[Killadrix]

1. The major draw point of MMOs for most players is getting better gear for your toons. When you have he best possible gear the game dulls quickly for most ppl and they quit until new content/tiers come out. So having two different sets of gear to go after that are both needed to be the best in different areas makes the game last longer for the majority of the players.

 

2. If you could get the best possible gear for PVPing out of PVE everyone here would be complaining about how its so unfair the people in the good PVE guilds with no lives come in and destroy them with their superior gear. If you try to solve this by making the best possible PVP gear easily obtainable you run into problem 1.

 

It's this this circle why there has to be two different sets of gear, one better for PVE and one better for PVP. An "expertise" stat is just the easy way to make one set of gear clearly better for PVP.

 

Don't even try, bro.

 

All you are going to get is "blah blah DAoC blah blah blah it's so easy to do blah blah it's a crutch blah blah WoW sucks blah blah blah..."

[SandTrout]

Ok, I am going to end this discussion with you simply because you are fully incapable of attempting to understand anything other than "how does expertise effect my game experience" even though it has been laid out for you in no uncertain terms numerous times in this very thread.

No, we actually agree regarding the effect a PvP stat. It keeps PvPers in PvP and it keeps PvEers in PvE. You think it is a good thing to restrict a person's access to the game. I think it is a bad thing.

 

You are placing ZERO thought into the repercussions of offering PVP and PVP progression paths for IDENTICAL GEAR when there are amazing examples of current MMO's which have attempted THIS VERY THING, failed and were forced to take other paths which has resulted in current games using the current mechanics.

An MMO that lasts for 7 years is a highly successful MMO. Guess what, though, there are good number of games that have been around for longer than WoW, and are still profitable.

 

Nobody woke up one morning and said: "Hey, I have an idea which I really think will ruin my $100,000,000+ game! Let's arbitrarily tack a PVP stat onto gear and SCREW EVERYONE OVER MUAHAHAHAHAH!"

Correct, no one would wake up and say that. You need an entire internet forum of whiny idiots constantly pestering you to do something this incredibly over-complicated and self-destructive.

 

I wish for nothing more right now than for you to wake up tomorrow and magically be the lead designer of this game so you can put into place your naive and narrowminded ideas so I can sit back and sip on an ice cool drink while watching this game fall apart due to the unintented consequences of your bullheaded ideas.

What are the unintended consequences that you predict, oh wise one?

 

PvPers succeeding in Nightmare raids! The horror!

 

PvEers holding their own in PvP! The catastrophe!

 

People will play what they want to play, not what you say they should play. If you prevent people from playing the game they want to, then you loose subs. Some of us want to play both PvP and PvE, but you can't stand that thought. Guess what happens when people can't play the game that they want to play? They stop playing your game.

 

I want to play the WHOLE game, not just half of it. Me playing the whole game in no way prevents ANYONE, ANYWHERE from playing the half that they like and ignoring the other half.

 

While I know you will place very little thought into it just as you do everything else, I recommend you stop trying to turn this game into something it's not (DAoC, perhaps?), and perhaps play something more to your liking.

 

Best wishes,

 

Killadrix

DAoC was an example of a successful loot system that crossed PvE and PvP, proving that the 'necessity' of a PvP stat is false. Nothing more, nothing less. You insist that PvP and PvE can't possibly be balanced without a PvP stat. DAoC loot is proof that you are wrong in that assertion. Expertise is a poorly thought out crutch to compensate for poor design.

[Coinkee]

Uhmm. Im not the only person to play wow and have top end raid gear AND a 2500+ Rating for the pvp gear as well. Raids don't last ALL week that you can't do both. At the beginning yes, it does take more time to gear BOTH of your t1 sets. Big deal.

 

I can see it now..

 

GMOTD: Everyone go pvp for 2 days to get full Centurion so we can go raid!

 

pvp gear is tons easier/faster to get than Raid gear.

 

That ALONE is one base example of why the expertise stat is needed.

 

So tell me oh wise DAoC one. How do you get around that without punishing pvpers in ANY way shape or form?

[SandTrout]

Uhmm. Im not the only person to play wow and have top end raid gear AND a 2500+ Rating for the pvp gear as well. Raids don't last ALL week that you can't do both. At the beginning yes, it does take more time to gear BOTH of your t1 sets. Big deal.

 

I can see it now..

 

GMOTD: Everyone go pvp for 2 days to get full Centurion so we can go raid!

 

pvp gear is tons easier/faster to get than Raid gear.

 

That ALONE is one base example of why the expertise stat is needed.

 

So tell me oh wise DAoC one. How do you get around that without punishing pvpers in ANY way shape or form?

 

Honestly? If it doesn't hurt you any that people can get the top-end gear in PvP faster, because you know, you're not actually playing against them in PvE (see that 'E' it stands for 'Enviroment', meaning that you're not pitted against other players), I don't see a problem.

 

So some people are doing the top tier raid sooner than you are because they got their gear trough PvP. Are you really so damned egotistical that this cannot be allowed? You can still run your raids just fine and get your gear at the same rate as if there were no gear at all available to PvP players.

 

If it doesn't hurt or hinder you in any way, why should it bother you?

[Darth_Vampirius]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

Seriously? Expertise is the BEST decision the devs made with this game. Remember when Vanilla WOW added BGs and people with PVE raid garbage dominated PVP? Let's continue to avoid that kind of disaster. Thanks!

[fest]

Uhmm. Im not the only person to play wow and have top end raid gear AND a 2500+ Rating for the pvp gear as well. Raids don't last ALL week that you can't do both. At the beginning yes, it does take more time to gear BOTH of your t1 sets. Big deal.

 

I can see it now..

 

GMOTD: Everyone go pvp for 2 days to get full Centurion so we can go raid!

 

pvp gear is tons easier/faster to get than Raid gear.

 

That ALONE is one base example of why the expertise stat is needed.

 

So tell me oh wise DAoC one. How do you get around that without punishing pvpers in ANY way shape or form?

 

Uhhhh what? PvP gear is NOT easier than PvE gear to get simply because the RNG of PvP gear is 1,000 times harsher than that of PvE gear. Right now, I can join a guild that has everything on farm and gear up in one night. No matter how hard you try, you aren't getting a full set of PvP gear in one night. It's impossible.

[Vincedaddy]

This thread is like a bad train wreck it's terrible but somehow you just can't stop reading it. It's the classic carebear argument "they get it, and I don't it's not FAIR!". Yes a person who grinds battlemaster should be able to beat you 1 experience they have dealing with other classes and their own 2 they should beat someone in pvp when they farmed "pvp" specific gear 3 because hardcore raiders generally suck at pvp (while pvp'ers are generally good at both because of the knowledge of limitations and strengths of other classes along with their own. Tbh you don't deserve instant gratification just by siting behind the keyboard, just as you wouldn't expect a fresh 50 in greens to get in your raid (ops) group so stop crying about it.