Expertise is a giant mistake, didn't you learn from Trion?

[blackadda]

Grind your way to Valor 60, then say its easy... its not.

 

But even then, expertise is far from a decisive advantage when you consider equally geared PVE toons.

 

Theres also a good reason why many of the top pvpers who have access to BOTH PVE and PVP gear are using the PVE sets... its because SOME stats on PVE gear are superior to equal points in Expertise.

 

The simple fact is there are other stats which trump expertise point for point in both PVE AND PVP..... I learned this by grinding out 100's of warzones and tinkering with stacking different stats.

 

Expertise is nice , but not the be all and end all ...

 

 

With or without expertise a 50 will destroy lower levels... Brackets will fix this. no other change is needed

[crustie]

but say that a t3 group are as "godlike" as you and your team claime to be .. then they would rapeface.jpg your group would they know? if u dont belive me .. take a look at the stats on t3 compard to blues and t1-t2 .. the gap where in that time hugh ...

 

i never claimed we were godlike... we were good though.. and generally raiding guilds were that... raiders that dabbled in pvp... we were pvpers that dabbled in raiding... our goal was to grind HWL gear.. where as MOST teams with t3 were raiders doing bg's for fun rickrollin pugs while waiting for raids. we knew how to work the bg better then them.. that and we only ran AB.. not sure how well we would fair against one in WSG. but in AB.. we rarely lost.. no matter the gear difference. maybe if we were in greens but we weren't..

[SandTrout]

Grind your way to Valor 60, then say its easy... its not.

 

But even then, expertise is far from a decisive advantage when you consider equally geared PVE toons.

 

Theres also a good reason why many of the top pvpers who have access to BOTH PVE and PVP gear are using the PVE sets... its because SOME stats on PVE gear are superior to equal points in Expertise.

 

The simple fact is there are other stats which trump expertise point for point in both PVE AND PVP..... I learned this by grinding out 100's of warzones and tinkering with stacking different stats.

 

Expertise is nice , but not the be all and end all ...

 

 

With or without expertise a 50 will destroy lower levels... Brackets will fix this. no other change is needed

 

I believe you here. The thing is, PvPers seem not to realize how expertise screws them over by allowing the devs to pass off second rate gear onto them, when they should just be asking for access, however limited (weekly/biweekly reward, maybe?) to gear that is on par with the top-end raid gear.

 

If you don't like PvE enough to play through it for the top end gear because you can get it a little bit faster if you grind PvP, then you're not enjoying the game, you're just feeding an addiction.

[Redderic]

people are stupid and dont think obviously.

expertise is there so that the people who raid and get raid gear dont go into pvp and faceroll those that dont.

now instead it mostly separates those the pve from those that pvp except for those that do both and have 2 different sets.

get some expertise and learn it only helps against others who dont have it or take the time to get it.

[Coinkee]

Im sorry but a scripted pve raid does not compare to unpredictable pvp with other real people. People spend just as much time grinding warzones as people that run raids over and over.

 

Im sure they could figure a balance of pvp time/wins that ca. Equate to pve raids. It makes more sence for the gear to be equal in stats. If you need expertise to have an edge over someone that only raids the. Maybe you need more practice.

 

You completely missed the point in your jaded view of what people are saying.

The expertise isn't to have an edge. It's to have a linear gear development. Same as pve raid gear does. The difference is the people whining here don't understand that all Expertise does is define if the gear is pve gained or pvp gained. Yes it has a side perk. Just like raid gained gear has sets bonuses. Trust me, Youre gonna want the expertise as a pvper once the tier raid gear starts getting to be more common. Cuz youre gonna need the 10% decrease in dmg taken else the "I got 2 shot by xx class!! nerf them!" will fill these forums.

 

There is little math atm due to no combat logs. but wait til people start theorycrafting WHAT pieces of pvp gear you want and what pve pieces you want to pvp in. dmg done vs mitigation etc etc. That's a huge HUGE part of the endgame. And if you think it isn't, well you're delusional. No math, no theorycrafting, no trial and error makes for a very dull endgame.

 

The scripted pve raid takes way more planning than a SOLO win or lose doesn't matter pvp grind. So why should the gear be TOTALLY equal?

 

I don't want someone in my PVE raid that got their gear thru PVP cuz who the hell knows if they even work well with others? If they understand the concepts of PVE. Whether they are top tier pvp or not. Good pvpers don't inately make good raiders. Just as good raiders don't inately make good pvpers. The gear differentiates HOW they got their gear.

 

To take it a step further. You're gonna get your *** handed to you if you go into a raid in crappy gear. Just like you're gonna get your *** handed to you when you freshly hit the 50 bracket. At least in the SOLO pvp environment you are still earning what you need to advance your crappy gear. In a raid, It's win or nothing. Not to mention even if the piece you want drops, no guarantee YOU will get it. Im assuming why they made pvp bags and not just straight comm pts.

 

Let's say for a second there is no expertise but there is some other hidden mod on gear to differentiate the 2 that doesn't affect gameplay. Youre STILL gonna get your *** handed to you by the people who have been grinding that gear before you hit 50.

 

People are whining about something that will invariably allow BW to modify, at any given time, to make pvp more balanced totally separate from pve balancing. Which has been the downfall of ALOT of games. Balancing the 2 is extremely hard to do. It's 2 totally separate aspects of the game. There is no way in hell they are gonna take it out just because a few crybabies got butthurt and died.

[SandTrout]

Let me summarize the thread for real quick, because a lot of statements have been made regarding the reason for the stat existing.

 

Problem: WoW raid gear far surpassed gear available to pure PvP players.

 

Solution 1: Create a new stat that reduces damage only from players and add it to PvP gear so that Raid gear is no longer dominant in PvP, but prevents players from simultaneously gearing for PvP and PvE.

 

Solution 2: Grant access to raid-equivalent gear to PvP only players.

 

Either way, fresh 50s are still screwed in PvP.

 

Blizzard and BioWare went with Solution 1.

 

Is that about right?

[flying_toaster]

I hate the idea of Expertise as a whole. I always thought a pvp-only stat was a terrible idea. It's flavorless, bland, boring and just unnecessary. I think that any stat or ability that has use only in a single aspect of an MMO is a bad idea. Tha includes stats, abilities, skills and even crafting. Having armor with Expertise that increases damage/healing output and reduces damage taken seems unnecessary when the same effects can be had with just more armor and main offensive stat. So what could they do?

 

My opinion is that they should implement armor sets with bonuses to raw HP for example. or maybe even enhance/change the functionality of certain abilities. Like a 5-piece bonus to Vanguard armor that increases Reactive Shield duration by 10 seconds for example. Much more interesting and flavorful stuff than a boring stat like Expertise, AND both useful in PVE and PVP (though obviously finds better use in PVP).

 

Just get rid of Expertise altogether and give us something more fun to play with.

[Coinkee]

Let me summarize the thread for real quick, because a lot of statements have been made regarding the reason for the stat existing.

 

Problem: WoW raid gear far surpassed gear available to pure PvP players.

 

Solution 1: Create a new stat that reduces damage only from players and add it to PvP gear so that Raid gear is no longer dominant in PvP, but prevents players from simultaneously gearing for PvP and PvE.

 

Solution 2: Grant access to raid-equivalent gear to PvP only players.

 

Either way, fresh 50s are still screwed in PvP.

 

Blizzard and BioWare went with Solution 1.

 

Is that about right?

 

Yes and no.

The problem in wow was intitially the fact that there was NO pvp gear to begin with. So pvp was determined by who had the most raid gear. Pvp was neigh impossible for pvpers.

 

They added in pvp gear to pvpers thru their own ladder and that fixed it somewhat, but not fully as the raid gear still far outdid the pvp gear.

 

They then added in better pvp gear but realized that it was all just a time investment. People who had more time skewed their ladder for the better gear. HWL was easy to get as long as you had a few other people with you or using your account. It promoted account sharing and a constant steam of ABs. Servers were also selling off the title and gear that went with it.

 

Thats when they added in resilience. to balance it all out.

 

At least that's how i remember it. It's been so long and i'm prolly off on some of them but thats the general way things went.

[Xilrasis]

I hate the idea of Expertise as a whole. I always thought a pvp-only stat was a terrible idea. It's flavorless, bland, boring and just unnecessary. I think that any stat or ability that has use only in a single aspect of an MMO is a bad idea. Tha includes stats, abilities, skills and even crafting. Having armor with Expertise that increases damage/healing output and reduces damage taken seems unnecessary when the same effects can be had with just more armor and main offensive stat. So what could they do?

 

My opinion is that they should implement armor sets with bonuses to raw HP for example. or maybe even enhance/change the functionality of certain abilities. Like a 5-piece bonus to Vanguard armor that increases Reactive Shield duration by 10 seconds for example. Much more interesting and flavorful stuff than a boring stat like Expertise, AND both useful in PVE and PVP (though obviously finds better use in PVP).

 

Just get rid of Expertise altogether and give us something more fun to play with.

 

And then some random set bonus or hp bonus gets added to the PVP gear that makes it vastly superior to PVE gear for some classes and forces raiders that have zero interest in PVP to do so in order to maximize their potential. At the same time, the opposite holds true for PVP players in PVE, which the PVP only stat helps to alleviate (typically). Were it not there, many PVE items would end up best in slot.

 

I think PVP players being forced to PVE isn't as big of a deal though, as the majority of the game's content IS PvE related.

 

Also, some of the people that read the first two pages, pick a random post to quote, and respond need to seriously read a little further.

[SandTrout]

Yes and no.

The problem in wow was intitially the fact that there was NO pvp gear to begin with. So pvp was determined by who had the most raid gear. Pvp was neigh impossible for pvpers.

 

They added in pvp gear to pvpers thru their own ladder and that fixed it somewhat, but not fully as the raid gear still far outdid the pvp gear.

 

They then added in better pvp gear but realized that it was all just a time investment. People who had more time skewed their ladder for the better gear. HWL was easy to get as long as you had a few other people with you or using your account. It promoted account sharing and a constant steam of ABs. Servers were also selling off the title and gear that went with it.

 

Thats when they added in resilience. to balance it all out.

 

At least that's how i remember it. It's been so long and i'm prolly off on some of them but thats the general way things went.

Did resilience actually fix the problem of gear and time investment skewing the ladders? I didn't play WoW, and I am genuinely asking for information, but the current system seems to reward time investment just as much as anything else I can imagine.

[Coinkee]

It got rid of the pve vs pvp gear 'somewhat'. To start a season you wanted full pvp gear. As you got the better pvp tier you could weave pbve pieces in and be more balanced.

 

Entry lvl pvpers still got shafted because they didn't have the abundance of the stat that older pvpers did. Hardcore raiders got wafflestomped to ppl in full pvp gear (as it should be) just as pvp gear was a huge nono in pve raids (as it should be).

 

Near the end of any season (season meaning that tier) Poeple had the theorycraft down of which pvp pieces and which pvp pieces made the best set. But you could not go into an arena or BG and expect to not get your *** handed to you if you were in pure pve gear.

 

However at the end of the season they allowed you to get the previous tiers pvp gear easily. That would be the equivalent of allowing people to buy Centurion gear with just WZ comms when they introduce a new tier of pvp gear.

 

They also put a limit in to how many 'comms' you could get per week. so it was consistant with raid gear somewhat. So your time investment if you were any good was to get rating to get the upper tier. If you sucked. you SLOWLY got the good gear but never top end because you needed the rating.

 

It's complicated to understand if you havent played thru Arenas.

you were matched with people of your same rating. so the best of the best wouldnt hardly ever play the lowest of the low rating. However there was also Battlegrounds (warzones) that everyone was shot together unless you were a premade. They had their own premade versus premades with their own ladder lol

 

Basically the time investment was only to get the entry lvl pvp gear.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Coinkee

[SandTrout]

Thanks for the information. I think I understand how they managed it, but it still seems like a treadmill to me. I don't like treadmills. That's just my taste.

 

Entry lvl pvpers still got shafted because they didn't have the abundance of the stat that older pvpers did. Hardcore raiders got wafflestomped to ppl in full pvp gear (as it should be) just as pvp gear was a huge nono in pve raids (as it should be).

This is where I severely disagree with you. I do not see PvP/PvE segregation as a good thing because it limits my access to content. I am also more of a fan of open world/RvR styles of PvP than arena style instanced PvP.

 

Other people like different things than I do, obviously, and maybe bioware just didn't make a game with PvP that I'm going to enjoy.

 

Unfortunately none of this changes my opinion that the PvP stat is intrinsically destructive to an MMO community by its segregationist nature. I happen to also play on a PvP server, so working toward battlemaster really isn't an option for me, as it is going to be necessary for my survival in the field. I'm pretty certain that they're not going to make leagues for expertise levels on Tatooine.

[Mhak]

QFT.

 

Expertise is a 0 sum arms race that will only hurt the game and community.

 

Coming from a PT in full Champ gear - I agree with this completely.

[Coinkee]

hehe i hear ya. but it really is a necessary evil. MMOs are treadmills. You fight (via pve or pvp) to get the top gear. and 2 months later youre bottom of the barrel again fighting to get the top stuff again. That's the nature of MMOs the world over.

 

Honestly tho, It's really only the beginning stages of any new tier (or new game) that things get this muddled. Once youre 50 and settled you can pvp all day and hell all night on most nights and STILL be competitve in pve as raids are scheduled and usually dont last longer than your playtime. A raid 2 times a week (again i said when ppl are settled) won't inhibit your pvp much. so you can have the best of both worlds, just not the top of both worlds unless you have alot of time.

 

To take away the expertise you would have ppl fully geared already in bis. Theyd have gotten their best in slot (bis) from both areas of the game. And just trust me. Pvpers would be feeling the pain of it. At least with expertise of their own they don't feel it biting them in the *** so hard =D

[BDutch]

tl;dr

 

Anyways, they havent learned from Trion, they learned from Warhammer where everybody was farming PvE to be competitive in PvP

 

/thread

 

LOL that was the big problem with WAR? funny

[Condiments]

 

This is where I severely disagree with you. I do not see PvP/PvE segregation as a good thing because it limits my access to content. I am also more of a fan of open world/RvR styles of PvP than arena style instanced PvP.

 

 

How would you then address the problem of stats consistently escalating through the addition of PvE operations to flesh out the endgame? If PvP and PvE are meant to be both entirely viable forms of gathering gear, would new sets of PvP gear need to be added EVERY single a new operation or gear improvements are made on the operations side of things? Wouldn't that ultimately result in more gear grinding for players who want to engage strictly in PvP if they want to stay competitive against PvE players?

 

You can see the problem presented, and how things like resilience can solve them. PvP focused MMOs don't need such specific stats because PvP IS the endgame, whereas if you're trying to balance two different systems, you need to differentiate them somehow. Instead of PvE/PvP focused on damage escalation, they can tailor stat priorities in different directions. In the WoW arena endgame, damage on gear did matter, but not nearly enough as stats that would increase your character's longevity in a fight. Where players can focus on class synergy, tactics, and the dynamics rather than bursting down opponents.

 

So, I believe the expertise stat needs to stay until something better is developed.

[jewel]

How would you then address the problem of stats consistently escalating through the addition of PvE operations to flesh out the endgame? If PvP and PvE are meant to be both entirely viable forms of gathering gear, would new sets of PvP gear need to be added EVERY single a new operation or gear improvements are made on the operations side of things? Wouldn't that ultimately result in more gear grinding for players who want to engage strictly in PvP if they want to stay competitive against PvE players?

 

You can see the problem presented, and how things like resilience can solve them. PvP focused MMOs don't need such specific stats because PvP IS the endgame, whereas if you're trying to balance two different systems, you need to differentiate them somehow. Instead of PvE/PvP focused on damage escalation, they can tailor stat priorities in different directions. In the WoW arena endgame, damage on gear did matter, but not nearly enough as stats that would increase your character's longevity in a fight. Where players can focus on class synergy, tactics, and the dynamics rather than bursting down opponents.

 

So, I believe the expertise stat needs to stay until something better is developed.

 

they have a system in place already were it would be tremendously easy to fix the escalation of gear stats in pve. The have already tried to normalize stats from 1-50 in a warfront (to varying degrees of success) why not just give everyone certain base stats based on their advance class (with gear not changing this at all) and leave the gear for open world pvp. kind of like what gw2 is doing although the skill points make a huge difference .. perhaps having people able to customise their pvp skill tree straight away.

 

Alternative solutions about gear is to make gear sets just change around certain stats and have different sets such as a crit / surge heavy one, power , defense, end etc...

[Coinkee]

they have a system in place already were it would be tremendously easy to fix the escalation of gear stats in pve. The have already tried to normalize stats from 1-50 in a warfront (to varying degrees of success) why not just give everyone certain base stats based on their advance class (with gear not changing this at all) and leave the gear for open world pvp. kind of like what gw2 is doing although the skill points make a huge difference .. perhaps having people able to customise their pvp skill tree straight away.

 

Alternative solutions about gear is to make gear sets just change around certain stats and have different sets such as a crit / surge heavy one, power , defense, end etc...

 

No gear upgrades = people not bothering.

 

People play to upgrade their gear. If you take that out.. Good Luck.

[SandTrout]

How would you then address the problem of stats consistently escalating through the addition of PvE operations to flesh out the endgame? If PvP and PvE are meant to be both entirely viable forms of gathering gear, would new sets of PvP gear need to be added EVERY single a new operation or gear improvements are made on the operations side of things? Wouldn't that ultimately result in more gear grinding for players who want to engage strictly in PvP if they want to stay competitive against PvE players?

 

You can see the problem presented, and how things like resilience can solve them. PvP focused MMOs don't need such specific stats because PvP IS the endgame, whereas if you're trying to balance two different systems, you need to differentiate them somehow. Instead of PvE/PvP focused on damage escalation, they can tailor stat priorities in different directions. In the WoW arena endgame, damage on gear did matter, but not nearly enough as stats that would increase your character's longevity in a fight. Where players can focus on class synergy, tactics, and the dynamics rather than bursting down opponents.

 

So, I believe the expertise stat needs to stay until something better is developed.

 

Make the additional FPs more difficult but don't grant new tiers of armor. Grant other rewards such as titles, social items, new customizable armor models, and other forms of gratification that don't necessarily result in a constant upward push of stat numbers.

[SandTrout]

No gear upgrades = people not bothering.

 

People play to upgrade their gear. If you take that out.. Good Luck.

If people only play the PvE for the gear, then why do they need the gear? To do more PvE, which according to you, they don't even enjoy.

 

According to this line of though, people play MMOs to do stuff that they don't want to do in order to get stuff that allows them to do more stuff that they don't want to do.

[Coinkee]

Make the additional FPs more difficult but don't grant new tiers of armor. Grant other rewards such as titles, social items, new customizable armor models, and other forms of gratification that don't necessarily result in a constant upward push of stat numbers.

 

That makes no sense. Make stuff harder but use the same gear?

 

Ok ill flip that back onto you.. Expertise just makes it harder for you to beat someone with it. BUT here's a shiny new non combat toy you can show off on the fleet if you happen to beat one.

 

Gear is a form of character progression. If you didnt upgrade it statwise youd lose 3/4 of the playerbase if not more is what i was saying.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Coinkee

[Coinkee]

The only MMO that i know of (im sure someone will nicely correct me if im wrong) that wasnt gear based was Prepub 16 Ultima Online. that is the ONLY MMO that i now of where you could literally pvp in a skirt and a sash as long as your skills were maxxed.

 

That games pvp showed REAL skill cuz there were NO stats on anything really and even that switched to a gear based (stats) game in later days and it ruined it.

 

FPS - RPG - every game nowadays is geared based. Youre not gonna go fight a dragon in peasant clothes in Skyrim are you? No you're gonna 'gear up' first. Every game has a gear progression and the gear progression is stats. CoD - BF3 - You gear up as well. You unlock new guns and stuff.

 

Youre asking THIS game to not boost stats on gear?

[RealAeiouy]

Removing expertise does not change the fact new 50s will be massively out geared. This whole line of complaining about expertise is illogical.

[natakukun]

not sure if it's been posted already as i have not read the whole thread, but what about a stat like expertise that is for PVE? it would still keep the PVE gear seperate but require the PVE gear to progres through PVE content while also leaving them to add PVP gear with higher stats?

[SandTrout]

That makes no sense. Make stuff harder but use the same gear?

It's a greater challenge than existing content so that players aren't bored with repetitious content that they can do in their sleep.

 

Ok ill flip that back onto you.. Expertise just makes it harder for you to beat someone with it. BUT here's a shiny new non combat toy you can show off on the fleet if you happen to beat one.

Yes, and I've seen people run raids and other high-end content for nothing other than a tag under their name to prove that they did it.

 

Gear is a form of character progression. If you didnt upgrade it statwise youd lose 3/4 of the playerbase if not more is what i was saying.

Gear is A form of character progression. It is by no means the ONLY form of character progression. Additionally, what are you progressing towards, if the only reason for PvE content is character progression? You're just running a treadmill if you're just going for the next set of gear that's needed for the next dungeon where any increases in HP and Damage are canceled out.