TheHeadCapper Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I'm tired of grouping with a "tank" who I later find out is simply a DPS juggernaut after being forced to watch his buffs every pull. . Almost everything in your post like this, you can currently do. Click on the tank and see what buff he has up, if it isn't giving threat he isn't specced as a tank. Edited January 13, 2012 by TheHeadCapper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoranHorn Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Fully agree with the OP and so does a very large amount of the SWTOR community. Crying "elitist" when folks want recount style feedback or the ability to compare specs with other players is an old failed argument. Get one that actually makes sense. The OP is right, if you want to do difficult tasks with a group of people, you need to have the ability to compare peoples output, specs, etc. That is how you improve. It is how we BW can make content progressively harder and people can defeat it. Getting a guild in no way at all solves these issues. You folks who say this probably have very limited experience playing end game content with guilds. Playing various MMO's for the past 7 years, i have NEVER been in a guild that did not have a significant amount of folks who were either unable to adequately contribute in difficult content because their spec was WAY off OR their dps rotations were way off. Usually people have no problems fixing either issue IF they just know what to do. OP is right. If want t play a game how you want, the way you want, and throw out any consideration for how it impacts group content, then stick with single player storycontent. Play SWTOR by yourself, or do single player games. This constant accusing folks of being elitist is stupid. You are either scarred for life by some jerk guild, or paranoid about others finding out how little you will contribute to your groups. Either way, get off it. Great post OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoranHorn Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Almost everything in your post like this, you can currently do. Click on the tank and see what buff he has up, if it isn't giving threat he isn' specced as a tank. You don't need tools to do what you can already do with your own eyes. wrong. a shadow gets the threat stance/buffs regardless of being specced to tank or dps. my vanguard is tanking specced but i believe i get the tanking round/buff regardless of what spec i am inside the vanguard AC. you can be fully geard and specced for dps yet have the same buffs as a tank would use. and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woopya Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Why exactly do people feel the need to bash on the OP? The second you use the word "baddies" you deserve what you get. He used it in the tittle of the thread. I feel no sympathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProspectorPete Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm tired of having to group with people who cannot think for themselves, apply a 1+1=2 logic, and need a crutch to do so, after which they consider themselves to be elite gamers who tell everyone how fond they are of theorycrafting and "crunching the numbers", in order to make them seem more intelligent than the lack of acuity they possess. You sound like you got kicked out of alot of groups for not being able to press buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) The second you use the word "baddies" you deserve what you get. He used it in the tittle of the thread. I feel no sympathy. Well. Baddies are baddies. What do you want me to call them? Gaming-challenged? I am not going to call them casual because tons of casuals are still very good. Edited January 13, 2012 by Hairless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProspectorPete Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well. Baddies are baddies. What do you want me to call them? Gaming-challenged? Youre right. Anyone who resists things like recount only do it for one reason. In WOW they were kicked out of groups because they couldnt figure out how to do DPS. Now they see this new game and think the same thing will happen all over again. What they dont know is a damage meter is coming. They cant stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProspectorPete Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Fully agree with the OP and so does a very large amount of the SWTOR community. Crying "elitist" when folks want recount style feedback or the ability to compare specs with other players is an old failed argument. Get one that actually makes sense. The OP is right, if you want to do difficult tasks with a group of people, you need to have the ability to compare peoples output, specs, etc. That is how you improve. It is how we BW can make content progressively harder and people can defeat it. Getting a guild in no way at all solves these issues. You folks who say this probably have very limited experience playing end game content with guilds. Playing various MMO's for the past 7 years, i have NEVER been in a guild that did not have a significant amount of folks who were either unable to adequately contribute in difficult content because their spec was WAY off OR their dps rotations were way off. Usually people have no problems fixing either issue IF they just know what to do. OP is right. If want t play a game how you want, the way you want, and throw out any consideration for how it impacts group content, then stick with single player storycontent. Play SWTOR by yourself, or do single player games. This constant accusing folks of being elitist is stupid. You are either scarred for life by some jerk guild, or paranoid about others finding out how little you will contribute to your groups. Either way, get off it. Great post OP. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekadez Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) You sound like you got kicked out of alot of groups for not being able to press buttons. Nah, I sound like I help those who underperform along by pointing things out politely. I sound like I can read tooltips and deduce which skills I use, when and in which order. I sound like I don't go on forums to cry about people wanting tools and crutches only to want them myself. I sound like I've played MMO's before Wrath of The Lich King. I sound like someone who will be patient when a group quest, flashpoint or operation goes wrong, trying to figure out how to make it right. I sound like someone who wouldn't vent his issues with those he's grouping with. I sound like someone playing MMO's because I find them engaging, fun and socially relevant. Everything you, and the OP, are not. The would-be elite forums aren't here. I suggest you keep on looking for them, and refrain from treading among us lesser beings. I can only imagine the baddies who have cleared the current content without the crutches you need to clear it, under the disguise of needing it to sort out 'teh baddies'. Edited January 13, 2012 by Dekadez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Don't worry guys. BW doesn't care about the 0.001% of the playerbase who used to get kicked from pugs in WoW. We are getting full combat logging. BW confirmed it. On top of that, BW is making an in-game tool that tracks your personal performance. Everyone will be aware of their own performance. Even baddies will know how bad themselves are. Baddies can no longer use the excuse "I dont want to download 3rd party addon" to remain ignorant of their horrible DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Nah, I sound like I help those who underperform along by pointing things out politely. I sound like I can read tooltips and deduce which skills I use, when and in which order. Lawl. First of all, how are you going to find the underperformer without meters? Second, how are you going to know what he's doing wrong without meters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBJammin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Asking people to not be cave dwelling knuckle draggers in their play style isn't being elitest. It is expecting more than the bare minimum. If people want to do the bare minimum then fine.. do it in a single player game. If you are ok with losing.. fine do it in a single player game. I expect you who is playing along side of me to be able to perform the tasks that are required of you by the standards of the video game you are playing. If you can not or find it too stressful or you are too loaded or you have kids or you have any reason at all.. Maybe playing multiplayer games isn't for you at this time. It is not ok to impose you inabilities on others and expect them to pick up your slack. There are tons of video games out there. Play by yourself in one of those games if you cannot perform up to the standard that is multiplayer. Gimme a break. So they don't go and join the most competitive guilds or pretend to be something they're not. But to think that someone who doesn't fully grasp the game or has distractions in their life shouldn't even be playing is ridiculous. There is such a thing out there as Casual gaming. It's fine if you want to play with an elevated standard and want to surround yourself with people that do play that way but honestly PUG's are a mixed bag, you have to go into them expecting as much. If you can't handle sub-optimal playstyles then you may want to avoid putting yourself in a situation that invites frustration. Have you considered helping folks get better rather than dwelling on blame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Have you considered helping folks get better rather than dwelling on blame? I'll gladly help folks. Will they stop petitioning for a regressive Amish-grade UI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Have you considered helping folks get better rather than dwelling on blame? If you want to be helped and given the best advice, you have to let people see exactly what you are doing, which is why we need combat logging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolveroach Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I don't want recount or any other add-ons because I know many people who used Curse got viruses and hacked accounts. I will never install a thrid party addon to my game ever again. If that excludes me from your group so be it. Meanwhile me and my friends are going to figure out how to win with practice, knowledge and a bit of luck. When your enjoyment revovles around "Winning" then I wonder exactly why you play games in the first place. My enjoyment comes from playing and that includes getting my arse kicked by a boss or losing a PvP battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProspectorPete Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Nah, I sound like I help those who underperform along by pointing things out politely. I sound like I can read tooltips and deduce which skills I use, when and in which order. I sound like I don't go on forums to cry about people wanting tools and crutches only to want them myself. I sound like I've played MMO's before Wrath of The Lich King. I sound like someone who will be patient when a group quest, flashpoint or operation goes wrong, trying to figure out how to make it right. I sound like someone who wouldn't vent his issues with those he's grouping with. I sound like someone playing MMO's because I find them engaging, fun and socially relevant. Everything you, and the OP, are not. I thought the day would never come, but I have run into the human super computer. You can figure out how to help people when you have absolutely no idea what they are doing? How do you do that? Do you do it by the sound of their abilities or the color of their blaster fire? I want your autograph. Or, it could be that you dont want anyone to know what youre doing which is more likely the case. If you were at least half way decent you really wouldnt care if its in the game or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpholinium Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 My best argument against meters is they tend to erode the cooperative effort completing content entails, and obfuscate the true causes of failure by boiling everything down to "needs moar deeps". That's saying nothing of ******tery competitions trying to post the biggest numbers can cause. Sure, you did 0.15% more damage than anyone else, but your irresponsible overnuking caused an off heal to pay way more attention to you than otherwise, and nearly caused a wipe. Maybe the guy you just booted and blacklisted for being a "baddie" actually is better than you, but had an odd lag spike or was momentarily distracted when his kid caught on fire. Nooo, recount knows all. We must all lie prostrate before the power of "moar deeps". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangbot Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Oh wow i just saw the big twist at the end!!! I'ts you!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Urtani Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I love the smell of QQ in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekadez Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Lawl. First of all, how are you going to find the underperformer without meters? Second, how are you going to know what he's doing wrong without meters? By keeping my eyes open. Watch which debuffs he applies, watch which skills he uses and how. It's not that hard, we (who played before WoW) used to do it all the time. I wouldn't expect a degenerate like you, who starts his sentence with 'Lawl', to grasp that concept. You need the crutches in order not to fail, but ask for them under the guise of needing it to sort out others. Who is the baddie then? If you can't assess performance without an addon spitting out statistical data, then stick to what you do best instead of criticizing others over their performance. Unlike you, it would seem, I have been a classleader (or whatever you would call it) in previous MMO's who lacked the type of addons or tools to spit out data. We used to figure out which rotation was best, based on tooltips. We used to discuss them. We used to closely watch new players and assess their performance based on the eye-test. Is it a better assessment tool than a statistical addon? Obviously not. Is the statistical addon necessary to perform? Obviously not. Is 100% perfect performance necessary to progress? Obviously not. But you wouldn't know. You were led by the hand all the way throughout your MMO experience, force fed statistical data out of context and made to regurgitate the opinions of Elitist Jerks. Edited January 14, 2012 by Dekadez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tek_Coronado Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 No side is going to convince the other that they are right. Casual gamers, game casually. They have their work, their families, their hobbies, and they log on when it is convenient. They play games to have fun, or play with like-minded individuals who want to enjoy the game for what it is, a video game. Nothing wrong with that. Hardcore gamers, are probably also real life perfectionists. They strive to excel in everything they do, and their personality spills onto Gaming too, so they choose to spend their time Maxing out literally everything. Nothing wrong with that. Now.... There are people who have absolutely no real life accomplishments, and feel that the only way to make themselves feel good about themselves is to be the top of what they do in a virtual world. Now that's just sad. But i'm not accusing anyone on this thread of being in this category, i'm just saying that sometimes hardcore gamers get confused for these types of people. There is a difference. And at the same time, there are lazy people, who don't care to keep themselves geared, and are just really bad players, very arrogant, they get advice from people but dont listen to it, and they sometimes get confused for casual gamers. Casual gamers may sometimes bad but they take advice and they do their best with what they get. I don't see anything wrong with having Combat logs or tools to help more hardcore gamers keep tabs of what they do, and where they should be. The problem casual gamers have are the hardcore ones who try to push their min/max agendas on them and act elitist probably because they have no real accomplishments and need video game accomplishments to feel better about themselves. TL;DR: This is never going to change, eventually the hardcores and the casuals eventually split up into their own communities where they fit comfortably with like-minded people who play the game the way they want to play it, and feeling like they are getting the most out of their $15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortwave Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) I'd rather play with rude elitists than nice scrubs. Edited January 14, 2012 by Shortwave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekadez Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hardcore gamers, are probably also real life perfectionists. They strive to excel in everything they do, and their personality spills onto Gaming too, so they choose to spend their time Maxing out literally everything. Nothing wrong with that. Here's a one-liner: If 'hardcore gamers' were real life perfectionists, they wouldn't be 'hardcore gamers'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 By keeping my eyes open. Watch which debuffs he applies, watch which skills he uses and how. So you are going to keep your eyes open on 15 other people in the raid so you can identify the baddie and help him? I don't know man. I think I would be too busy playing my own character as best as I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfmiolleh Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) No matter what BioWare implements. No matter what hacks,mods,cheats or macros they allow. We will always have someone somewhere complaining about something. Gear,abilities,difficulty,group mates, guild mates,community,business model,bugs,billing,tec support,graphics,skill,Appearance.......heck! I have seen people whine about how their character looks or dances. Ridiculous. Edited January 14, 2012 by Derfmiolleh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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