JamieKirby Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well, considering crafters are not crafting for their community, players need to gear up their companions somehow, since the amount of commendations you get on each planet is not enough to gear you AND your companion, its one or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRahja Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 But in another sense, I don't want to compete with group members, I want to help them. I want the game to be fun, and I don't mind giving up something small to let someone else have fun too. Maybe that is merely me (it is certainly only my opinion), but it feels very clinical and icy when put in terms of calculating benefits once you dispose of your group mates. So here's what I am getting from this. I want to group with LogicalPremise. He sounds like a cool guy. After grouping with him, I would probably want to do so again in the future because he seems to care about more then himself. I don't want to group with Eldren. They sound selfish. After grouping with them I would probably feel indifferent, if not unhappy with them, depending on whether they told me ahead of time they were rolling for their companions. Regardless I doubt I would do so again. LogicalPremise, you seem to understand that with no Random Group cross server button that shunts 4 random strangers together who will never see eachother again, we are once again forced to treat each other as human beings, instead of NPCs of variable skill and vocabulary, that we can forget when the instance if over. You are playing the long game, and intend to be able to group with as many people as possible. I commend you. You seem to be a very smart guy. Eldren (im probably spelling it wrong, so if you reply, remember to correct me), you seem to still see people as tools. This is a shame. I understand you want to keep this cold rigid system between you and other players. But regardless of how many times you tell someone "I have the right" even if they agree with you till the flashpoint is over...you probably wont see them again. I see the same people on my server every day on the fleet. I associate openly with a great deal of them. I wouldn't want to start alienating them this early in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahana Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well, considering crafters are not crafting for their community, players need to gear up their companions somehow, since the amount of commendations you get on each planet is not enough to gear you AND your companion, its one or the other. Yeah the inequity in quest rewards is really strange.. We'll give you one (1) commendation or an orange piece that is worth fourteen (14) commendations. Or we'll give you one (1) commendation or a hilt worth (7) commendations. Even though I just upgraded my hilt. Other comments are when you look through the commendation mods, there seems to be a HUGE lack of mods, armor etc in the might line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRahja Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well, considering crafters are not crafting for their community, players need to gear up their companions somehow, since the amount of commendations you get on each planet is not enough to gear you AND your companion, its one or the other. Sounds like you solved your own problem, flashpoints for you, commendations for your companion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profaneascension Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 So here's what I am getting from this. I want to group with LogicalPremise. He sounds like a cool guy. After grouping with him, I would probably want to do so again in the future because he seems to care about more then himself. I don't want to group with Eldren. They sound selfish. After grouping with them I would probably feel indifferent, if not unhappy with them, depending on whether they told me ahead of time they were rolling for their companions. Regardless I doubt I would do so again. Careful now, the other camp is going to tell you that you're exerting peer pressure on them and that it's tantamount to "bullying." Trust me, I've had to defend myself against them on many occasions in these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahana Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Careful now, the other camp is going to tell you that you're exerting peer pressure on them and that it's tantamount to "bullying." Trust me, I've had to defend myself against them on many occasions in these threads. They will also be the same people screaming for a LFG once they are on most everyone's ignore list except their like minded thinkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRahja Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Careful now, the other camp is going to tell you that you're exerting peer pressure on them and that it's tantamount to "bullying." Trust me, I've had to defend myself against them on many occasions in these threads. Wouldn't that just be verifying that their argument that theres no society in the game and thus there can't be reprocussions, is completely wrong? I hope so, that is kind of the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 They will also be the same people screaming for a LFG once they are on most everyone's ignore list except their like minded thinkers. Hey! Not all people that believe it's justifiable to roll need for companions want an community destorying LFG. Grrr..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldren Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Careful now, the other camp is going to tell you that you're exerting peer pressure on them and that it's tantamount to "bullying." Trust me, I've had to defend myself against them on many occasions in these threads. How typical: you resort to mischaracterization because you've no other outlet left. You've had to "defend" yourself? Curious... I haven't seen a cogent defense from you quite yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 LogicalPremise, you seem to understand that with no Random Group cross server button that shunts 4 random strangers together who will never see each other again, we are once again forced to treat each other as human beings, instead of NPCs of variable skill and vocabulary, that we can forget when the instance if over. You are playing the long game, and intend to be able to group with as many people as possible. I commend you. You seem to be a very smart guy. Like Eldren said, I'm a bean counter. I'm also a pastor. It's my job in both professions to sublimate myself for larger goals and longer term perspectives. But like my name says, I usually want everything I stand behind to have an unfaulted logical premise. People emphasize the wrong things in life and as a result are unhappy -- this is true IRL as it is in SWTOR. At it's deepest core, this isn't an argument about loot. I may amuse myself by researching the effects, but this isn't about loot. It isn't about grouping, and it isn't about social contracts or selfishness. It is really about what people take away from the game. I take more away from a good group experience. I make IRL friends from the game. I find people in my local community in the game. That's MY experience. I can't expect it, or worse, demand it from anyone else. I gotta make sure I'm not pressing my unfounded belief on others simply because it's mine, but because it's better for everyone. Eldren's argument is not illogical. You simply cannot proscribe group utility without someone being a loser, and a badly designed loot tool that depends on some preconceived and unstated rules of etiquette isn't fair if it means that people who define the companion as part and parcel of the experience have to sublimate that to meet other people expectations. I suspect that Eldren is exaggerating, after reading posts I doubt they hit need very often at all, if ever. But we -- as a community, and BW don't start that "don't talk about the community" jive -- cannot castigate members and demand norms if the tools are flawed and the actual effects are completely unknown. Again -- some of the research on gearing companions I'm doing shows that a SW with properly geared or high geared companions (specifically some stuff from BP and Foundry) can literally double the DPS and survivability of a PC. That is not something to overlook. What we need is simple: 1) Is the gear cutting it for companions? If it isn't, then that is what is driving people to have to need for them to keep them competitive. And the answer isn't bashing people over the head , it's BOLSTERING how companions can be geared. It's hard to spend on the GTN if you also have to pay for repairs, crafting, training, speeders, mats, etc. And commendations can be frustrating games to play -- equip yourself, or your companion? 2) Is the tool adequate to the job of measuring out loot? Is the LOOT system worth while or should it be adjusted? Let's not merely assume that since BW came up with it is as perfect as Adonis, here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacktongue Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Rolling need for a companion when someone else can use it for their toon = dick move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WutsInAName Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) IMHO. If you as a player is running an instance with me and do not specifiy UPFRONT the loot you wish for yourself then everything is open loot. I run as Tank toons pretty much exclusivly and always always always put my own group together I almost never join a group. I just find a healer and go from there. From my point of view as the Tank I am putting in the most effort and taking the biggest risk, not to mention all the work getting group put together, through instance and explaining the boss fights. (My biggest irk is some DPS trying to tell me how or what..... sure you wanna tank this, no? then shut up). In the end I feel I am more entitled to DPS drops for my companion then a DPS is for themselves. Healers I would usually just pass on and add to friends. (My entire friends list is only healers). The lesson here is if you rolled DPS you are interchangable, replacable and a lot of the time my pet would do just as much DPS with 0 of the stupidity. I invited you to the group for the privledge of running the instance NOT the loot it contained. If loot was your priority then roll a bloody tank and make your own groups instead of trying to have your instances and loot handed to you by another player. TL;DR Due to the compaion system DPS is completly interchangable and can be subbed out for a pet. NO fights currently in game require top notch DPS to even beat the enrage timer. Hence at this point in SWTOR any DPS class is literally being carried by tanks healers and compaions and have NO ROOM TO GRIPE! Edited January 17, 2012 by WutsInAName Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRahja Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 How typical: you resort to mischaracterization because you've no other outlet left. You've had to "defend" yourself? Curious... I haven't seen a cogent defense from you quite yet... Still eloquent, but getting snarky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRahja Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) IMHO. If you as a player is running an instance with me and do not specifiy UPFRONT the loot you wish for yourself then everything is open loot. I run as Tank toons pretty much exclusivly and always always always put my own group together I almost never join a group. I just find a healer and go from there. From my point of view as the Tank I am putting in the most effort and taking the biggest risk, not to mention all the work getting group put together, through instance and explaining the boss fights. (My biggest irk is some DPS trying to tell me how or what..... sure you wanna tank this, no? then shut up). In the end I feel I am more entitled to DPS drops for my companion then a DPS is for themselves. Healers I would usually just pass on and add to friends. (My entire friends list is only healers). The lesson here is if you rolled DPS you are interchangable, replacable and a lot of the time my pet would do just as much DPS with 0 of the stupidity. I invited you to the group for the privledge of running the instance NOT the loot it contained. If loot was your priority then roll a bloody tank and make your own groups instead of trying to have your instances and loot handed to you by another player. TL;DR Due to the compaion system DPS is completly interchangable and can be subbed out for a pet. NO fights currently in game require top notch DPS to even beat the enrage timer. Hence at this point in SWTOR any DPS class is literally being carried by tanks healers and compaions and have NO ROOM TO GRIPE! Not...sure...if...troll? If not, you kinda sound like a monster. Im heals, I don't think i have ever though of DPS as some sort of second class citizen, and I don't think I have met a tank that was entitled to your opinion...and I healed Sicks. Like...THE Sicks.. Wow...just wow. Edited January 17, 2012 by BlueRahja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WutsInAName Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Not...sure...if...troll? No sir you are the troll. See you can tell a troll by someone who replies and simply adds nothing relevent to the topic of discussion, in this case that is you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slteath Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 IMHO. If you as a player is running an instance with me and do not specifiy UPFRONT the loot you wish for yourself then everything is open loot. I run as Tank toons pretty much exclusivly and always always always put my own group together I almost never join a group. I just find a healer and go from there. From my point of view as the Tank I am putting in the most effort and taking the biggest risk, not to mention all the work getting group put together, through instance and explaining the boss fights. (My biggest irk is some DPS trying to tell me how or what..... sure you wanna tank this, no? then shut up). In the end I feel I am more entitled to DPS drops for my companion then a DPS is for themselves. Healers I would usually just pass on and add to friends. (My entire friends list is only healers). The lesson here is if you rolled DPS you are interchangable, replacable and a lot of the time my pet would do just as much DPS with 0 of the stupidity. I invited you to the group for the privledge of running the instance NOT the loot it contained. If loot was your priority then roll a bloody tank and make your own groups instead of trying to have your instances and loot handed to you by another player. TL;DR Due to the compaion system DPS is completly interchangable and can be subbed out for a pet. NO fights currently in game require top notch DPS to even beat the enrage timer. Hence at this point in SWTOR any DPS class is literally being carried by tanks healers and compaions and have NO ROOM TO GRIPE! ....if so, then don't find DPS to group, your problem solved... btw... you just take this whole "selfishness" thing to a whole new level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldren Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Still eloquent, but getting snarky. I'm only human, Blue. This said, I tend to respond to like with like, and I didn't have the time for a more robust response. Lots of strangeness going on here locally and it's affecting a whole lot of stuff related to work, which means my time for lengthier responses is spotty. As LogicalPremise surmised at the bottom of last page, I actually don't hit "Need" very often. I typically don't need to: I've endeavored to keep my two most-used companions in oranges, which means I often only have to update their mods. But on occasion I've found something that's a good upgrade when mods aren't available or are experiencing a GTN spike in price past what I'm willing to pay. On those occasions I've rolled "Need". In some of those cases I asked first, in others I didn't. The thing to take away from this is simple in its elegance: up against the wall, our personal definitions will take precedence over murky "social definitions". We only sublimate our personal perspectives to social ones when a) we agree and b) they're fully codified and ratified. It would take me a lot longer to crunch numbers like LogicalPremise has, though it could be done. However, doing percentage analyses is sort of off to one side of my central point, which is "You participated in downing the boss, you have a right to stake a claim to its loot." Anything else, from me or someone else, is nothing more than attempts to justify a position the game not only doesn't require justification for, but the players objectively don't require a justification for. The ones getting upset aren't largely doing so because they're such proponents of broad altruism that their very cores are wounded, they're getting upset because they'd be upset in that moment that someone got something they wanted for a reason they don't think should have been allowed. I might find it amusing, but I understand it. I just don't agree with their attempted applications of its foundational premises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jopster Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It's not a ninja if he can use it including the companion. Companions are part of the game so you might want to just get used to that fact. I know I won't hesitate even for a second to need on a item for my companions. Your companion is of much use during Flashpoints,PvP and Operations? Considering they took down a 4man worldboss his companion was not part of the group so he might as well have taken it for an alt or just to sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRahja Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) @ wutsinaname Oh man you are serious. I thought people just pretended to be like you to get a rise out of people but your like...the real deal. Im so sorry for you. Every minute of every day, any moment of levity, joy, or even introspection must bring so much pain. You have my sympathies. Edited January 17, 2012 by BlueRahja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Rolling need for a companion when someone else can use it for their toon = dick move. That's an opinion not fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profaneascension Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 How typical: you resort to mischaracterization because you've no other outlet left. You've had to "defend" yourself? Curious... I haven't seen a cogent defense from you quite yet... Oh hey Eldren! Long time no chat. I know we were embroiled in our own little debate some days ago, but I've lost track of them as I've been involved in discussions with the other set of usual suspects, the likes of which include SnoggyMack, Setanian, BigBadEdward, etc. Just plug my name into that fancy new Search function and you'll get essays' worth of stuff on this subject that I've written. To be honest, my reference to "the other camp" wasn't aimed at you specifically. It is my belief that you and I are steadfastedly entrenched in our own respective positions and thus no longer have much of worth to say to each other. However, if you'd like to pull up an old thread, discussion, or specific post addressed to me to which I have yet to respond, feel free to do so and I'll contrive as good a defence as I can. Nevertheless, I can probably summarize my position succinctly with a few points. - Anyone can roll Need on anything because everyone can come up with a valid reason to need an item. - Therefore, unless you first establish an hierarchy of need, every roll is a Need roll. - Because I don't agree, I am imposing my opinion on other people and bullying them into doing what I want. I think that's it. Did I get it right, Eldren? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jopster Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 IMHO. If you as a player is running an instance with me and do not specifiy UPFRONT the loot you wish for yourself then everything is open loot. I run as Tank toons pretty much exclusivly and always always always put my own group together I almost never join a group. I just find a healer and go from there. From my point of view as the Tank I am putting in the most effort and taking the biggest risk, not to mention all the work getting group put together, through instance and explaining the boss fights. (My biggest irk is some DPS trying to tell me how or what..... sure you wanna tank this, no? then shut up). In the end I feel I am more entitled to DPS drops for my companion then a DPS is for themselves. Healers I would usually just pass on and add to friends. (My entire friends list is only healers). The lesson here is if you rolled DPS you are interchangable, replacable and a lot of the time my pet would do just as much DPS with 0 of the stupidity. I invited you to the group for the privledge of running the instance NOT the loot it contained. If loot was your priority then roll a bloody tank and make your own groups instead of trying to have your instances and loot handed to you by another player. TL;DR Due to the compaion system DPS is completly interchangable and can be subbed out for a pet. NO fights currently in game require top notch DPS to even beat the enrage timer. Hence at this point in SWTOR any DPS class is literally being carried by tanks healers and compaions and have NO ROOM TO GRIPE! Any monkey can tank, I guess you are one of those people struggling while playing mmo`s so whenever you manage to complete an instance or turn in a quest you feel like a special snowflake? Tanking, dps`ing or healing are all easy and require the same amount of skill to do it right. By your logic your precious tank gear should be free for all as well since companions use it and even if we have better gear we can always vendor it to buy something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WutsInAName Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 ....if so, then don't find DPS to group, your problem solved... btw... you just take this whole "selfishness" thing to a whole new level... That is your opinion, I have no problem finding DPS to run and am fine with using companions instead. I just did Cademimu @ 28 with 1 healer and 2 pets last night, was a good time. I also same night did a 4m heroic with another tank my dps and his heal pet. DPS is a dime a dozen and the least required role, this is no secret. People also seem to very much enjoy my groups as I am quick effecient and communicate well by ensureing people are rdy, explaining encounter etc. On the flipside If I was putting together a group for XXXX Flashpoint and a DPS asked to join and said something like trying to get yyyy peice from the set or weapon etc from there I most certainly would not exclude em for that and would 100% pass on said items. In the end with all the other crap I am doing/worrying about as a tank and the literally nothing a DPS has to worry about, if they dont take the 30 sec to say they want soemthing before it drops, then I am rolling if a companion can use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WutsInAName Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Any monkey can tank, I guess you are one of those people struggling while playing mmo`s so whenever you manage to complete an instance or turn in a quest you feel like a special snowflake? Tanking, dps`ing or healing are all easy and require the same amount of skill to do it right. You sir are so wrong it is not even funny. Tanking is most complex of the 3 roles hand down. Ask anyone who has effectivly run top end raids in various products and every single one will agree. You have to manage aggro, watch positioning, turn the mobs, move from fire/aoe, time your CD's, taunt from MT to OT at stacks of X etc etc. Conversly if a DPS misses or uses his CD at the wrong time raid does not wipe. DPS can literally watch pr0n as long as they time and keep rotaion going.....mmm trained monkey anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRahja Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) In the end with all the other crap I am doing/worrying about as a tank and the literally nothing a DPS has to worry about, Isn't this exciting, do tell me what you are doing that a dps isn't? Are you doing your rotation to the best of your abilities while responding to boss mechanics? Isn't that what a dps does? You seem to view dps as some kind of mindless animal that doesn't know anything past what you have come down from your divine mountain to tell them. Share with us here oh wise one, what do your tablets say? What does the Great Tank do that we, the lowly support classes of healing and dps are not? Edited January 17, 2012 by BlueRahja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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