Forum Changes Coming!

leojreimroc · January 16, 2012

Why isn't every server getting their own forum again?

It seems stupid that you are making people preface their topics with the server name when you could completely bypass that just by categorizing all threads of a particular server into its own forum! It's not like I care what events are happening on Hedarr Soongh when all my characters are on Helm of Graush just because it is also a PVP server that begins with the letter 'H'.

Needlessly complicated.

We need true server forums. Nothing less will do. Other games have them, and, yes, the moderation isn't as pronounced on the server forums as on general. But the lesson in that is: you don't need gestapo-like moderation. The 'secret police' shouldn't be black bagging everyone who opens their mouth in disagreement over the game. Most of us are adults here -- stop catering to the absolute lowest common denominator.

I agree with the above. I don't get why we're not getting forums for each server. Your decisions seem strange to me. You do not include cross-server tools (which I agree with) because it helps with the server communities. Then, you don't add a simple function to your forums like more sections. I really don't understand.

The server forums are just another place where the community can build. Keeping in mind the scope of this game, simply adding more sections to a website forum seems so easy to do. Yes, there might be more moderation, but it doesn't matter, you need a forum for each server.

Edited January 16, 2012 by leojreimroc

Your_Ad_Here · January 16, 2012

The Server Group Forums will be divided by server type (PvE, PvP, RP, and RP-PvP), and then alphabetically by the server listing. We have grouped several servers of the same types together to provide areas where players can more easily talk with others on their server (and other players on the same types of servers) – about crafting items, grouping up, hosting events, and more. Each Server Group Forum hosts several servers. If your server’s name falls in the alphabetical range in the forum title, that’s where you’ll post!

We understand that some players would still prefer individual server forums. If volume in the Server Group Forums dictates and it is still too difficult to locate information important to you that relates to your server, we will continue to consider additional changes. We believe this organization will allow us to have a thriving area for per-server discussion, and we’ll remain flexible and receptive to feedback from these changes. As always, if you have any other suggestions for the forums (new forums you’d like to see, changes that would be helpful), we’re glad to hear them. Thank you for providing your constructive feedback!

It is definately a step in the right direction, but having seperate server areas would be helpful, if anything for finding a guild. But we'll see how it looks in the upcoming changes.

Your_Ad_Here · January 16, 2012

I understand their thoughts and approach to combat...rather, mitigate this but it's simply unavoidable.

Why?

Because everyone can make 8 toons and everyone can have both faction toons. Want to talk to the other side? Just log onto your alt.

Keeping the community divided makes no sense. Nearly everyone plays both sides anyway.

I agree. Putting any RP thoughts aside, it is just silly. People are going to be a-hats whether there is cross faction or not ... heck they're around now.

I would rather have a cross faction chat that players decide who to ignore or not, thea BioWare telling us we just can't do it period and go play with our toys in the corner.

oredith · January 16, 2012

well, the server forum thread has now been locked.

we've been asked to carry on the discussion on another thread, again.

so here we go. continuing to hope for server specific forums, but i'm personally willing to deal with group forum, mostly because i intend to bogart the entire group forum for Harbinger. whoever shares that group with us is probably gonna be bummed though

Vandrel-Blitz · January 17, 2012

well, the server forum thread has now been locked.

we've been asked to carry on the discussion on another thread, again.

so here we go. continuing to hope for server specific forums, but i'm personally willing to deal with group forum, mostly because i intend to bogart the entire group forum for Harbinger. whoever shares that group with us is probably gonna be bummed though

What utter nonsense is that? They closed the thread so it'd die off.

Hello there, everyone!

We appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us in this thread. That said, this thread is near the 1,000 post limit and so we will be closing it. In addition, there is a thread from Allison in our General Discussion forum that explains new forum changes that will be coming soon, and it addresses the issue of server forums. We're going to ask that everyone please heads on over to the below link to share their thoughts on this. Thank you for your understanding!
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=173672

That's ok, 2 can play that game

Well over 1,000 posts here and it's still open

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=1584541

Yet this got closed at 987. Bias?

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=3500

Edited January 17, 2012 by Vandrel-Blitz

Vandrel-Blitz · January 17, 2012

Copied here so everyone can see it in this thread.

Would have simply been easier for Bioware to utilize the original and well organized thread.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=3500

SWTOR Server Forums

This is not a petition, this is a request. Please leave valid feedback.

This game needs server forums, but why you ask?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Give Us Server Forums

There are too many players on the forums as is and the game hasn't even seen it's official release yet.

Threads become "lost in the sauce" within seconds of being created, generally regardless of section.

It's near impossible to communicate with same-server people

The Guild Hall is a disaster, there's no way of filtering or telling who's from what server. No one wants to read recruitment threads for servers they likely will never play on, ever.

There is no way for players to trade/buy/sell items in game via the forums. Every MMO out there has this and it's all broken down by server.

There's a lack of esprit de corps for server communities, everyone is on their own playing in solo mode.

EXAMPLE:

http://skylineownersusa.com/images/swgservers.png

The list can go on and on. Nearly 200 replies to this thread as of Dec 14th, 2011 and still no response from the Bioware staff. (Update: Bioware staff responded Dec 19th, see below)

Server forums are essential to comradery within a MMO that carries multiple servers. Servers become their own little worlds with their own little social groups. People within those little worlds, generelly, only care about what is going on in their world.

Building a community that is required to divide in-game means you must facilitate a means to which the community can filter internally. "We" don't care about the economy on other serves. "We" don't care about PvP on other servers. "We" don't care about Guild X that's recruiting on the other server. "We" want to trade/sell/buy and communicate with people on our own server.

SWTOR is off to a good start, let's not tarnish the image so soon. Make things right and give us server forums!

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MY OFFICIAL RESPONSE TO THE MATTER

Dec 20th, 2011 12:47 AM EST

Greetings my fellow SWTOR players,

I would like to take a moment to thank all of you who have taken the time to provide valid feedback on this thread regarding the current issue at hand. Your comments and opinions DO matter and I appreciate your input.

While the Bioware Community/Support Staff have taken the time to finally comment on this issue in this very thread, I would like to note that I have personally taken the time to read each and every single response posted in this thread, even prior to Bioware removing a vast majority of them. I value everyone's feedback on this matter as I feel that the more responses we have listed here, the more Bioware will be forced to take action and correct the issue.

I say all of this with experience. I am presently the Support Manager for a large company in the industry and while I am just a simple customer here, I still feel it's my duty to do everything I can to see that this problem gets the attention it deserves and is corrected in a timely manner.

I do not wish to see SWTOR go without the necessary "tools" that it needs to be successful in the market. The best experiences I have with MMO's comes from the community, without all of you I would not have a reason to play.

There was a very good comment from another customer here, which stated that you cannot forge communities without server forums. Server legands cannot be born, history cannot be passed on, there's simply no identity to the game aside from the content handed down from Bioware, and that is not a MMO.

Once again, thanks to all of you who have provided valuable input on this thread. I'm hopful that we will see a resolution to this problem in the near future as we press forward to lobby for change.

Regards,

- Van

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SWTOR CUSTOMER FEEDBACK

Some helpful feedback from your loyal customers

No further comments will be added to this since I got this:

Quote:

The text that you have entered is too long (50381 characters). Please shorten it to 50000 characters long.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gibbzter

Why not just make a forum for every server BW? Why all this BS, its like you guys are constantly trying to not do as much work as you should be. I don't think you guys know the importance of server forums in an mmo and how it can make communities last for years to come.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HobbeWan

An MMO should be what it says on the tin.

A true MMO is designed for social interaction. This is primarily between members of a server to organise events, raids, compare views, tactics and keep score with other guilds. The moderator aspect is frankly something that should have been considered right at the beginning. Lets face it they have taken enough game designers from other MMO's to learn from that.

I would say that this game has a polished storyline, a lot of nice features, good playability but the usual bugs that you expect in an MMO at this early stage which I hope will be addressed as time goes on. There are so many established MMO's out there there is a limited time to compete before people start to return to what they know. Thats human nature.

The problem is that it is competing with many established MMO's that have a lot of features such as add-ons etc and most importantly a "WELL ESTABLISHED COMMUNITY".

If you dont allow that to flourish, your game is dead and you'll be lucky if you recover your development costs. Standing on a legalistic principle regarding forum moderation to maintain an unsatisfactory method of getting people to gel together is frankly suicide.

Corporations like to instill brand belief in their staff with a messianic voracity and often this overlooks the practical elements of developing a product that has to compete in a very competetive market. This can lead to a very blinkered view of comments and constructive criticism from the customers.

I like this game and have played many others including WoW Warhammer and LOTRO, I can bear with the initial problems and hope that sense will be seen sooner rather than later and I will continue with it until unless it becomes a worthless excercise. I like to finish what I start.

If you bring in a new MMO that you want to have a half decent lifespan you need to take all the above into account.

SWTOR may have its game design experts but there are many other experts in this game..... ie the ones who have been playing MMO's for years, have raided end content and know what a game needs to make them tick.

Listen to them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Haldol-

There have been so many well worded posts, that I'll try to explain the need for a community with a different metaphor. What Bioware has done is no different than creating a co-op only game, except there is no way to find a partner, if you're solo, because there is a website but no forum or player matching system. In reality, Bioware's mistake is much more significant than my example. Granted this is a great single player game, and I hear they have good multi-player as well for those on a PvP server. But, my experience so far would be identical even if I was the only player on my server. Community can only be founded and then nurtured through server forum's. There is NO other way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnolith

You should NEVER use a third party forum besides your guild's forum.

Trust me I am also a Senior Community Manager and I can tell you that people use the exact same login for the games that they use on the same game website...at least the large majority does.

To not recognize this as a serious potential issue is un conceivable for a community manager. You have the choice between potential not monitored but secure forums or a third party that can grab passwords in plain text upon registration.

Once there what stops the server admin from selling these to the highest bidder.

You should be very very careful where you create accounts and for Bioware to not have individual servers forums and asking people to go to third parties is major facepalm material

Installing a script that will capture your passwords in plain text before hashing them is child's play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _BaconStrips_

The thought is nice but honestly there are already too many "unofficial" forums around and adding more will just further split up the community. But at this point who cares, there is no community anyways, so go right ahead. I want to love this game so much, but after spending weeks searching for a fitting guild for my needs on my server I gave up and spent almost 3 hours tonight on the forums searching. I even looked at pve and republic guilds and servers. There is just no way to look for any information about guild populations or what guilds are recruiting. The recruitment sections are the worst mashup of random information from all the servers, many guilds do not even post what server they are on. I already paid for 3 months but I am this close to just putting a hammer through my monitor. I am a lifelong gamer and MMO addict but this experience has started to sour me to the whole thing. Hell maybe this is a good thing, I hear RL have awesome server forums and when you get to end game you even get something called "sex". I will have to investigate it further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oredith

reason for canceling

Social Reasons

Feels too much like a single player game

Comment:

I absolutely love the game, which is why this is a tough choice.

the main/single reason why i'm canceling, is because of the lack of server forums. There are plenty of "unofficial" server forums, but those do not get the traffic that official ones do, and without official forums, i simply can not feel like i'm part of the community.

I hope Bioware changes the position on this, but until then, I'll enjoy the game until the 30 day period runs out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugaman

Great thread, by the way.

I actually have a problem with Bioware's arrogance when it comes to forum management. Claiming that server forums are rife with negativity is just plain ignorant. Are there numerous cases of server-forum drama and player/guild callouts? Yes, but that is what builds a server's community and contributes largely to player/guild notoriety. Most server forums are actually used constructively: guild recruitment, crafting discussions and transactions, guild progress, etc. Furthermore, most of the player/guild callouts are just playful competition and are part of the reason why MMOs are fun. Bioware's insinuation that server forums are cesspools filled with hate and grief is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

Server forums build community far better than in-game interactions or the current forum set-up. No community = no MMO experience = thousands of people ditching their subscriptions after they get bored of the single-player storyline.

We should all urge Bioware to create a cash cow instead of sticking with the current model (which is essentially a more expensive KOTOR and will not net the constant cash flow that they could have).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broom

I've been playing MMO since 2003 and I've been the leader of my guild (Fated) since 2004. We're one of those multi-game guilds that isn't easily categorized, since we pretty much do anything from crafting to heavy raiding to PVP. Since I'm usually pretty active in server politics and (pvp) event organisation, I think I have a fair idea of what makes a community. And in my considered opinion, server forums are essential. They allow people to still participate in the community from work, they give a place to coordinate social activities, PVE and PVP activities, and they give guilds a place to get to know each other.

SERVER FORUMS ARE IMPORTANT

COMMUNITIES ARE IMPORTANT

For the longevity of games, I'd even say a good community is essential. Many people keep playing or keep coming back because they miss the community. Going back and immediately fitting in with a group you belong to is a powerful incentive for playing.

And then we get SW:TOR. I'd describe this game as downright anti-social. The constant cutscenes make that there's hardly any guildchat or even region chat and that Ventrilo is quiet. Guild tools are pretty much non-existent. And there are no server forums.

In Pirates of the Burning Sea, this far into live we already had our National Councils up and running

In Warhammer, this far into live the guilds were already working on how to grab fortresses, even though those fortresses didn't even work yet

I never played AOC at launch, but AOC chat is more lively than SW:TOR chat… and AOC has a WAY smaller population

In City of Heroes, task force weekends, costume contests and PVP zone events are organised through the forums

In Aion, cross guild cooperation for capturing fortresses was again started in the first weeks after launch

In SW:TOR… uhm… I see some guilds which seem to be bigger than others, don't know squat about them though. Can't look them up either. But hey, no one's talking to anyone anyway. On the server where my guild goes for PVP, we know almost everyone. Why? Well, we're from the Bloodfin server in SWG, originally. Most of us left after the CU/NGE, but we've kept in contact all those years, first through the server forums, then through our own expatriate forums. Forum wars, feuds, smacktalking and all, we still hang together… and server forums were instrumental to that.

I consider the BW arguments that server forums would go unmoderated as bogus. Other games use volunteer moderators from the community, so can they.

Linna Baresi

<Fated>

fated.europefreeforum.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by redtigershogun

I do feel quite offended by their excuses for not having them. Their resoning of not being able to provide proper moderation is absolute bs.

I mean really? You can't hire forum admins? You just moved what is estimated to be over 2 million units at a minimum of $60 a pop. Even if only half of those have subs next month, that's still an additional 15 million in your first month alone. Something tells me you could hire a freakin' army of forum moderators and you wouldn't have to sacrifice your tropical vacation to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryak

Consumer Behaviour 101:

Listen to your market and fill the gap

---

At the end of the day it is simply extremely bad business to try and tell your market what they want

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senden

They're going to lose subscribers from this decision for sure.. there are many many many mmo gamers who love immersing themselves in their server community, getting to know people, guilds and such and it can keep them subscribed for a lot longer than originally intended

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgtcrispy

Unsubscribed due to this. Honestly, this game feels completely devoid of any social aspects. Why make it an MMO if it ends up feeling like a single player game? No chat bubbles makes it difficult to know who is saying what and when, 80% of the game being phased and instanced makes me feel incredibly alone and no server forums is the final strike for me. And their reasoning for such is completely asinine. I'd rather have a poorly moderated forum than none at all. "You guys can make your own though," also feels like a slap in the face.

Quote:

Originally Posted by intristin

Server forums are required for any mmo. Re-Think this bioware, your making a mistake that will end up costing you money. People are drawn to MMO's with flashy content, but the reason most stay are community, guilds, and friendships. The guild forums you have right now are a nightmare, and adding the search function back will not make it any easier to promote or find a guild. Ditto for your events forum, another nightmare. Furthermore servers need forums to build community. Has the people who made this call ever played an MMO?

Give us server forums, we need them, we want them, what else is there to say? The pros of server forums vastly outweigh the cons, by light years....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluestone

I do agree with this thread though, the guild hall is a train wreck, all those sub levels of sub levels of sub levels of forums is ridiculous and it is a pain trying to find other guilds on your server.

The whole guild hall needs to be removed and replaced with server forums. End of story as far as I am concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EclecticTastes

Yeah it seems very odd to me that there are no server specific forums.

That was the very first thing I looked for when the new forums came up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SidSpinmove

Hate to say it, but no server forums = no play. The Ahazi forum kept me playing SWG for years after I naturally would have quit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crackyhoss

absolutely!! the ridiculously high traffic on the general forums may just be due to the fact that most people aren't in-game yet... but it's absurd!

literally 30 seconds after i started a new thread, it was buried on page 3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cormey

In the end it's good to have a forum where you can go to talk about issues that actually apply to the server(s) your playing on. I don't care if the economy is rooted or the sith outnumber the republic on servers i'll never touch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthMarisa

I can't reasonably expect my guild thread to get proper views unless I can move it to the right server. There's just too many threads out here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DullSeraph

This would most likely help with the overcrowding that is already starting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViperI

I, too, would love to see seperate discussion forums dedicated to individual servers. In essence, it should be what the current community forum is, with all it's subforums, duplicated for each server.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwitch

Its mind boggling to think they didn't add server forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anubrious

I wonder if the Community Management team realizes how not having realm/server forums will affect the community. I think that most people play MMORPG's because they want to play a game and interact with other people at the same time. I know I have made quite a few friends through online gaming. Without realm/server forums people have to use one of three different methods of finding guilds or people with common interests.

1) Come to the swtor.com forums and read through countless threads/pages hoping that they somehow actually find a post by someone from their realm/server and faction that fits the criteria they are looking for. This amounts to what I think most would consider taking up way too much time that could be spent actually enjoying the game that they are paying to play.

2) Use an outside source such as google, to try to search for guilds on their realm/server. This could be a very dangerous avenue for people considering the amount of spyware and hacking that is commonplace for gaming today.

3) Use the in-game chat feature to basically spam /LF guild. From my experience in MMO's this rarely nets good results. Most guilds that your average player would consider "good" don't normally respond to people spamming chat to find a guild. Most don't want to take the risk that the person spamming could be someone just looking to troll guild chat or "ninja" the guild bank. It usually is not worth their time while in-game. They would rather do their recruiting outside of the game, usually.

As you can see I have only listed cons to these methods because I do not believe that the pros come anywhere close to outweighing the cons in these situations. I understand that more forums require more Moderators and possibly server space but, I truly feel that it would be time and money very well spent considering I can't see it hurting the community. I can only see realm/server forums helping the community tremendously in the short and long term.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nefra

I was trying to look for a guild this morning and the forums are just a mess. Would be greatly appreciated if we could have server specific forums.

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BIOWARE'S RESPONSE TO THIS MATTER

Update: Jan 13th, 2012

Bioware listens to customers, but not completely. They are giving customers "forums" but not real "server forums".

From: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=173672

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman

Next week, we’re going to implement some changes to the Forums based on feedback we’ve received from the community. These changes are meant to help address some of the concerns the community has and to make Forums organization a little easier to use overall.

In the layout we have now, things like Guild Recruitment and Server Events are spread out and can be difficult to locate. We’ve also seen some requests for places on the forums where players can go to discuss things more closely with others on their particular server, and for a place for suggestions for the game. To start addressing some of these concerns, we will introduce a new forum section: Server Group Forums, and will place the Suggestion Box back in its rightful place under General Discussion.

The Server Group Forums will be divided by server type (PvE, PvP, RP, and RP-PvP), and then alphabetically by the server listing. We have grouped several servers of the same types together to provide areas where players can more easily talk with others on their server (and other players on the same types of servers) – about crafting items, grouping up, hosting events, and more. Each Server Group Forum hosts several servers. If your server’s name falls in the alphabetical range in the forum title, that’s where you’ll post!

Each Server Group Forum has a Guild Recruitment subforum, where players can recruit others into their guilds and look for a guild. There are many more subforums for recruitment in this organization than previously, so it will be much easier to find a guild on your server!

We ask that you please use a [server Name] tag in front of your threads in these forums when they open to make it easy to see when you make a thread that is specifically intended for other members of your server, and to make sure everyone can see relevant threads easily.

As a side effect of opening these new forums, we will close the Guild Hall and Server Events sections of the forum, as the content for those forums now belongs under our Server Group Forums. We’ll leave those forums visible for a time (but not open for posts) so that you can grab the text of your recruitment posts (or any other posts you’d like to keep from those forums) and post in the new Server Group Forums.

We will also add the Suggestion Box forum to create a place for constructive suggestion threads to live. We encourage you to share your ideas!

We understand that some players would still prefer individual server forums. If volume in the Server Group Forums dictates and it is still too difficult to locate information important to you that relates to your server, we will continue to consider additional changes. We believe this organization will allow us to have a thriving area for per-server discussion, and we’ll remain flexible and receptive to feedback from these changes. As always, if you have any other suggestions for the forums (new forums you’d like to see, changes that would be helpful), we’re glad to hear them. Thank you for providing your constructive feedback!

More: http://torwars.com/2012/01/14/social...rums-announced

Update: Dec 21st, 2011

Thanks to Dvius for taking the time to capture an official statement from Bioware in a 1 on 1 interview.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12...-swtor-server/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dvius

Updated my article with interview with Allison Berryman.

http://tor-talk.com/community-fog-of-war/

Its time to speak up.

I am copying this article here for the sake of ease and so everyone can read it in black and white (or whatever catchy colors I randomly pick)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TOR Talk .com

Dvius : We’ve repeatedly heard about the need for a strong server community as reasons for no dungeon-finder or cross server PvP queues and then Bioware has decided to go with communal server type forums instead of server specific forums. Can you explain some of the reasons or thought processes behind this decision?

Allison : We definitely want players to interact and build strong communities overall, but we also have a responsibility to provide moderation that ensures players have a good community experience on the official forums. Generally speaking, server forums for many MMOs tend to be largely un-moderated and can become unpleasant to visit. We do feel there is value in them for the community, in the form of player-run events, guild recruitment, and other ways to meet players who enjoy the same aspects of the game you do, so we’ve attempted to provide that in the official forums through our expanded Guild Hall and Community sections. This is also a great opportunity for the community to come together in their own ways – on fan sites and through other resources. Of course, we want people to visit the official forums, and will use them to provide information that’s of specific interest to the community, but we also love to see the community coming up with cool stuff on their own.

Dvius: David mentioned that hundreds of server forums wouldn’t be ideal. With the number of players requiring that many servers, do you feel that people might feel lost in the crowd of just PVE, PVP, RP and RP-PVP server forums?

Allison : We don’t think this is the case. The official forums definitely get a lot of visitors, and forums like General Discussion are extremely fast-moving, but we’ve found that many of the sub-forums tend to have a more manageable pace. The first few weeks are guaranteed to be hectic no matter where you are, but we think that many players will be able to easily find threads to participate in and keep up with.

Dvius: The community team as well as developers has made a lot of changes due to player feedback. Is this something that is capable of happening, or is there server or software limitations behind this?

Allison : There is room for this to change in the future depending on demands and our capability to provide good moderation coverage. We need to balance the amount of demand from the community against our ability to provide the level of service we’re committed to maintaining, and as the craziness of launch starts to subside, we may look at some different options or implementations if it becomes clear there’s a need to in order to serve the community.

Dvius: What path would you recommend for players that are in support of these servers take? We don’t need a million posts spamming the forums obviously.

Allison : We definitely want players to express their interest, and the forums are a great place to do that. We do already have a thread in the Community section about server forums (found here) and whether they’ll be implemented, and that’s a great place to express your thoughts on the matter (constructively, of course)! We will be reading it – in fact, we have Community Representatives assigned to the various forums to help us gather feedback, so no one should ever think that a thread that’s not in General Discussion will get ignored.

Update: Dec 19th, 2011

This thread had nearly 400 replies and over 10,000 views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meluna

Hi there, folks. We've removed some posts from this thread and want to explain why. We understand the desire for server forums, but posts that only consist of "/signed" or "+1" are not constructive and are something we do not allow. Please make sure that all your replies help further conversation, as we don't allow petitions. Thank you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman

Hi everyone! We wanted to explain a little more about why there aren't currently server forums:

While we absolutely agree that there are some useful threads and discussions that come from server forums, we have decided to not include them in our launch Forums lineup. Partially, this is because we do not feel we could currently provide the high standard of moderation, oversight, and maintenance in each of them that we aim to provide across the Forums.

Another factor is that, after observing server forums for other games, we feel that we can provide places on the Forums for the constructive content that typically comes from them while working to eliminate the extreme negativity of player callouts and other undesirable forum activity that can occur in them.

We now have several areas for guild recruitment and community discussion and organization, which we feel are excellent things that typically end up in server-specific forums. We encourage you to make use of all the Community Forums (especially the Server Event and Check-ins forums) as well as our expanded Guild Hall forums. Though the search feature is currently disabled, once it is restored it will be easy to search for guilds recruiting on your server (and we apologize for the inconvenience in the meantime).

Obviously, this is a decision we can re-evaluate as we receive community feedback, but we do encourage you to try out the sub-forums that we currently have to see if they meet your needs and desires for meeting other players. In the future, we may add additional sub-forums for various topics that require more space. We're always reading feedback and evaluating the needs of the community, and will continue to do so, so please do let us know what suggestions you have to improve the Forums!

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GUILD RECRUITMENT FAILURE EXAMPLE

Bioware wants YOU to weed through 100's of pages of threads to find a guild that "may" be relevant to your server.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vandrel-Blitz

Seeing as how a number of you have been discussing guild recruitment, I would like to paint a prime example for Bioware to evaluate.

Day 1, early game access, I created a guild recruitment thread in the guild hall. I did not put my thread in any of the sub-forum areas because, quite frankly, my guild is not applicable.

My guild is a international coast to coast PvP/PvE guild that is a gaming community and due to this we have both EMPIRE and REPUBLIC guilds, essentially we have characters in both factions. We happen to presently play on a US PVE EST server, however we have members from all over the world and we focus on all aspects of the game.

Saddly, within seconds of my guild thread creation, a Bioware moderator moved my thread to the OTHER > PvP > EMPIRE sub-forum section. So, I responded and reported the thread notifying the moderator of their error, naturally I got no response and no support.

I then made a new thread, in the same area of the main guild hall (along with the 100 other threads) yet this time I made sure to clearly state in the title that my guild was international, that does PvE and PvE yet we're on a PvE server. Within seconds, that thread was moved to OTHER > PVE > EMPIRE sub-forum.

Again, I attempted to report the moderators error in moving my thread, because now at this point I have 2 recruitment threads buried in Empire ONLY forum sections, yet my guild has both factions. Naturally I got no response.

Lastly, I read the sticky (rules) thread stating that we are only allowed to create "2" threads if our guild is international. So at this point I'm lost, Bioware expects me to recruit for a international multi-faction gaming community guild with only 2 threads when their sub-forum sections are not only broken down by PvE/PvP/RP but also by faction and regional location. So what am I to do? I cannot recruiting in all sections, clearly because moderators insist on moving the threads, yet due to this fact I am now limited severally on my recruitment capabilities.

While the above is true in my personal case, it is a great example of WHY the current forum layout DOES NOT WORK, period. We need server forums to be successful and right now we are setup for failure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vandrel-Blitz

I have sent in a follow up response to their customer support via the ticket I had open. I requested them to forward this case to the appropriate manager/director for their review.

I'll keep everyone updated if/when a response is given. Hopfully they don't simply forget or ignore this thread.

Yet another request,

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...t=68515&page=7

Update: Dec 26th, 2011

This thread has 560 (not including those deleted by mods) replies and 24,000 views.

I got a response back regarding the ticket I sent in about this topic of discussion, here's the response

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWTOR Customer Support

Greetings Vandrel-Blitz,

I am Protocol Droid G3-U9, and I have forwarded your issue to the community team. Rest assured that it will be investigated thoroughly.

For future reference, we would ask that you please report all similar incidents directly to the community team at bwacommunitysupport@bioware.com.

Thank you!

Galactic Support is our specialty...

Protocol Droid G3-U9, aka [Pamela].

Star Wars: The Old Republic Customer Service

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BIOWARE STICKY'S A THREAD

Bioware expects it's customers to create their own server forums it seems, based upon the following thread that they made a sticky as well as their official response to this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangala

While we wait on Bioware, list your own server forums here.

I'll kick it off with the brandspanking new Frostclaw EU PVE Server forum.

I will maintain this OP with details of all that get added here.

EU:

Bloodworthy & Bloodworthy (Joint with TOFN & also on IRC: http://webchat.quakenet.org/ #Bloodworthy )

Darth Sion

Frostclaw PVE

Hex Droid

Keller's Void (TBA)

Legions of Lettow & Legions of Lettow (Temporary)

Scepter of Ragnos (Currently on IRC: http://webchat.quakenet.org/ #ScepterOfRagnos )

The Red Eclipse & Facebook page

Tomb of Freedon Nadd (Joint with Bloodworthy)

Trayus Academy (Currently on IRC: http://webchat.quakenet.org/ #trayusacademy )

US:

Belgoths Beacon

Bondar Crystal

Darth Bandon

Hedarr Soongh

Helm of Graush and a Facebook page

Krayt Dragon

Port Nowhere and another Port Nowhere forum

Tarro Blood and a Tarro Blood (Facebook Page)

The Ebon Hawk

The Fatman (Forum) The Fatman (Facebook group)

The Sanctum of the Exalted

Vrook Lamar

General Sites

Oldrepublicboard Operator is aiming to have server forums for everyone on there.

SWTOR.Fragworld.Org is offering moderated server forums for ALL US servers and soon EU also.

They also have a Guild Database to add and find guilds on your server.

Eotp Gaming is doing server forums for all EU servers

UK focused SWTOR Community site

Swtorowned Site with all server forums

Swtorserverforums Site with forums for all US servers.

The sad part here is Bioware took the time to sticky this thread, yet they can't be bothered to respond to the real issue at hand and solve it.

SWTOR customers are shelling out personal funds, real money, to create something that Bioware should be doing for us.

Taking a quick look at the costs that Bioware is forcing upon it's customers:

Domain name and registration: $15/yr

Hosting plan: $5/mo to $50/mo (depending on package)

Setup fees: $10 to $30 (if applicable)

So right here we have a handful of customers, the number grows daily, that are shelling out at most $50 a month plus $15 a year. Their own money put out there to do something Bioware should be doing already for it's customers.

If it was me, I'd send Bioware a bill.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you think you have some valid input, a well written response to the matter, or found news related to the topic, please forward it to me via PM here on the forums. I will do my best to keep this thread updated as we push forward in the lobby campaign against Bioware's decision to NOT have server forums for SWTOR.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vandrel-Blitz

On the first day of xmas Bioware gave to me.....

1 MMO

1 Official Forum

12 Forum Sections

41 Sub-Forum Sections

aaaannnndddd

ZERO.....SERVER.....FOOOORRUUUMMMMMMSSSSSSSZzzzzzz !

If you aree with this thread then please help by passing the word with the following include in your forum signature:

Code:

_______________________________________________________________________________________

BIOWARE REFUSES TO GIVE CUSTOMERS SERVER FORUMS (click for more details)

Quote:

Originally Posted by oredith

i'm kinda wondering if BW is secretly (or not so secretly) watching these privateer forums, to see if any of them take off, so that they can save themselves the trouble of having to provide it.

I'd like to direct your attention to something I found earlier today

http://www.two-pi-team.de/en/2011/bi...-republic.html

Quote:

As a standing partner for many years we compliment BioWare on officially launching Star Wars: The Old Republic, the most anticipated MMORPG of 2011 and almost certainly the Game of the Year. All the hard work you have put into it finally will pay off when all the thousands of Jedi and Sith players around the globe will set the gaming servers on fire.

Congratulations, BioWare! Or how Yoda would have put it: “Powerful you have become, the dark side I sense in you.”

So I ask you this,

Why is it that the above linked company owns countless SWTOR related domain names? And date of purchase/registration was March 2009?

Can we say conflict of interest?

Why is that important? Well, quite simply.... either this company did some contract work for Bioware and decided to make a little extra cash on the side by securing any/all related domain names possible for resale to folks like us.....OR Bioware is attempting to collect a little extra off of customers who are "forced" to venture out and create their own community sites.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Vandrel-Blitz

SnakeAes · January 17, 2012

I definitely feel that the game needs specific server forums, rather than general forums separated by server type. First of all, look at the disparity:

As of the time of this posting...

Number of English Servers (both US and EU combined)

- PvP: 62

- PvE: 91 (90 if you don't include Public Test server)

- RP-PvP: 4

- RP-PvE: 12

French Servers

- PvP: 8

- PvE: 5

- RP-PvP: 1

- RP-PvE: 2

German Servers

- PvP: 11

- PvE: 15

- RP-PvP: 1

- RP-PvE: 3

---

I don't claim to know exactly how the servers will be divided by type, but I assume they will at least be divided by language. If RP servers get their own subdivision as well, then there are at least a few servers that almost essentially do get their own private server forum.

Then compare that to the other extreme, which is 90 English-speaking PvE servers (91 if you include the Test Server). That means that BioWare's current plan is to bunch 90+ PvE servers together the same way they would bunch together just a handful of International servers? It just doesn't make sense. If we assume every server has the same amount of forum activity, then at any given time the laws of probability dictate that the average PvE player will have to swim through pages of threads before they even find a SINGLE THREAD that is even relevant to their own server.

Then compare to the one RP-PvP French or German server who essentially gets its own private server forum since it is the only one that exists.

How is that fair or accommodating?

If moderation is that big of an issue, it could be very easy to implement a volunteer-type moderation system where members can go through an application and screening process to receive very, very basic moderation privileges on their specific server forum ONLY. Specifically, the ability to lock threads, and to report threads to higher moderators (but with preference or higher priority, i.e. a server mod reporting a thread would get reviewed more quickly than a regular forum member reporting the same thread).

Yes, that system could be abused, but with proper screening and with feedback from other community members on how certain moderators behave, it will improve over time. I am familiar with several very large online community forums that utilize volunteer moderators and they are very, very effective.

With BioWare's emphasis on developing server communities, I feel that it's absolutely necessary to give each server its own forum. This way people can actually get to know each other and get acquainted without having to sift through pages of extraneous information.

Siegred · January 17, 2012

Sounds like some great ideas - I really like the fact that you are reorganizing the guild hall forums to make it easier to access guild threads. Have to jump 3-4 forums deep to find something can become frustrating, even for the actual recruiter. Hopefully these changes will continue to roll out, great work so far.

Satpolpp · January 17, 2012

Call me old timer, but I still much prefer individual server forums. Why do everything halfway BW?

CovenantOfDeath · January 17, 2012

And people say Bioware doesn't listen.

Thank you Allison for this update.

Yes you're allright.

3 post reincarnations about EU manteinance times, around 3000 post and 100.000 visits...

And we're still waiting for an ANSWER.

Yes they listen what they want.

Broom · January 17, 2012

I've said it in the original thread and I'll say it again: server GROUP forums are as useless as the current incarnation. 90 PVE servers? 60 PVP servers? Yeah, that will make it SO much easier to find a guild on one specific server, or to coordinate events or PVP for one specific server. "Just put the name of your server in the title of your post." Sure, that will help, with pages scrolling out of sight in minutes.

The whole point about server forums is that they are a place where communities form, where people can agree to do certain things together, where guilds can get to know each other and players can get to know guilds. Communities are ESSENTIAL to the longevity of MMOs. Just go ask your colleagues of Warhammer and AION why they suddenly decided to implement server forums after all. Or ask the competition: NCSOFT tried to limit access to the COH forums and tried to merge the COH class forums. Riots broke out.

INDIVIDUAL SERVER FORUMS ARE ESSENTIAL

GloveOfBuns · January 17, 2012

Speaking as an ex-WoW player, server forums really do make the community, and the community makes the game.

So far I've seen hardly any chat in any chat channel, apart from Tython and Coruscant. Fleet chat is kinda dead. There really isn't much community feeling (and somewhat exacerbated by the fact planets/zones are themselves sharded). And I play on a high-pop server (The Harbinger).

Server forums would go a long way into improving this situation.

Serissa · January 17, 2012

This doesn't really fix the problem.. thanks for nothing. We need specific server forums for each server.

Nobody is going to follow the "put your server name in the title" they dont do that now. And small servers are still getting lost in the shuffle.

Kyus · January 17, 2012

Come on Bioware, just admit that you've made a bit of a mistake with this one.

The replys are unanimous in favor of INDIVIDUAL server forums over your current "fix".

Forget forum traffic as a factor. Server forums are there to build community and document a communities history.

Whilst they do sometimes promote confrontation more than on general boards even these negatives fuel the in game gameplay experience.

Whilst we appreciate that checking the forums for feedback may be more time consuming, respect that the players are more interested in server forums with communing with one another and less with Bioware.

Re-tract the current plans and implement what everybody wants, I can't see what technical issues can be stalling this decision?

Iusedtoplaywow · January 17, 2012

And people say Bioware doesn't listen.

Thank you Allison for this update.

Oh god here come the fluffers.

Busting out a forum update that a high school TEENAGER could do in a day is not going to keep millions in revenue going.

Should have been there from the start. Damage done.

Nitengalez · January 17, 2012

Has anybody else noticed how nobody has came in this thread and said.

"I hate server only forums!"

Something we all agree upon apparently.

Get it together BW/EA.

oredith · January 17, 2012

Has anybody else noticed how nobody has came in this thread and said.

"I hate server only forums!"

Something we all agree upon apparently.

Get it together BW/EA.

i love your sig, as well as your custom-5 blizz.. , I think you meant "Maxtor 128mb hard disk" though..

also, I hate server only forums, it makes trolling so much more difficult.. >_>

I was bummed that the maint didn't happen today, kinda figured the forum change would come with the maintenance patch.

Edited January 17, 2012 by oredith

Syrellaris · January 17, 2012

as long as they activate the search function again, that would be nice

oredith · January 17, 2012

as long as they activate the search function again, that would be nice

hmm.. look to the upper right corner of the forum pages. the search function has been reactivated for almost a week.

Cindron · January 17, 2012

Please listen to your community. We are speaking loudly, distinctly and clearly. We want individual server forums. You gave us "A" initially. We have been requesting, yelling, begging for "B". Instead you give us "C" and say there you go, all better. This is approaching arrogance.

Look, this does not increase community ties, it breaks them down. Makes it worse. People will stay with a game even if it slows down when they have friends that they have established on their server. I'm so frustrated feeling alone except for occasional chat because I can't find any guild choices or server events. How many guilds on my server? What are their ideals? Which fits my personality best? Who is aligned against whom? Which has sister guilds? Look guild ...... is hosting an event and all are invited. Because you refuse to provide us with individual server forums I'm left sifting through hundreds of posts. Majority not related to me. Even if a post attaches their server name, it could be 8 pages down. I don't want to spend hours "digging". I would like to sign in forums, check for updates, check my server then guess what....play the game.

It's sad that the community is struggling to make server forums on their own. Bio should be ashamed.

When populations in games fluctuate you can count on the "core" players being a constant. The players who have a bond with friends in game. Under your current forums you are making it MUCH more difficult to establish such friends. You are in essence weakening your own game.

Come on, help us out.

SliggXx · January 17, 2012

So, let me get this straight...

BioWare's response to the community's justifiable outrage is to go from from amalgam of disassociated server groups to another amalgam of disassociated server groups. Their response is to force individual players to "tag" their threads with the server names. Really? By this change you are acknowledging that there is a problem and that you understand players hate the current system.

Don't you think it would be best for your company to listen to it's customers?

Seriously, what is wrong with you people?

oredith · January 17, 2012

Don't you think it would be best for your company to listen to it's customers?

Seriously, what is wrong with you people?

this reminds me of the Office space scene: "i'm a people person, damnit! what's wrong with you people?!"

i am thinking BW has a lot of these "people person"s..

Edited January 17, 2012 by oredith

SentinelDranoel · January 17, 2012

And people say Bioware doesn't listen.

Thank you Allison for this update.

who says they do not listen? I have been a BIOWARE fan since '04, they always do Q and A's and respond to fans. They just don't seem to have a employee that responds to individuals in the forums.

Jimer_Lins · January 17, 2012

who says they do not listen? I have been a BIOWARE fan since '04, they always do Q and A's and respond to fans. They just don't seem to have a employee that responds to individuals in the forums.

And they will not. Nor should they- it would be a waste of money, time and resources, and would create more problems than it resolved.

Anyone who speaks in an official capacity will have their every word dissected, recorded and quoted back to them out of context. No matter what they say or do, they cannot win- to paraphrase, the only way to win the game is not to play.

By refusing to engage beyond the most terse and official statements, they prevent the legions of basement dwelling neckbeards from making their lives a living hell.

It happens in every MMO- if the devs or staff participate in the forums, you'll get the mouthbreathers typing spittle-flecked rants about how the devs are wasting time in the forums when they could be fixing bugs. If they don't participate in the forums, the whiny gits start getting on about how nobody talks to them.

If I were BioWare I'd make sure everyone had an hour a day hard-blocked on their calendar to read the forums. And I'd make sure the firewall prevented them from posting anything.

Horr · January 17, 2012

I cancelled my sub because of that.

No server forums, no real "Global" or "Global LFG" chat.

It makes it very difficult to find a guild or even a group to do a flashpoint in a remote area.

Forum Changes Coming!

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