Bioware's unshaken confidence is troubling

[MrTijger]

Sorry OP, I think you were expecting too much from the forums. It's full of people who have blind faith in the game and refuse to acknowledge any issues it has. These people wished so hard for this game to be good that they are afflicted with a very strong case of cognitive dissonance. In order to relieve the dissonance they ignore issues and focus on the parts they like.

 

I love this game, and I want to to succeed. For it to succeed, someone has to step up and point out issues that need to be handled. Unfortunately, it gets drowned out by all these trolls who convinced themselves there is nothing wrong with the game.

 

Oh grow up. There's virtually nobody who says the game has no issues, however, many of us do take issue with the baseless trolling that goes around masking as criticsm and usually coming from the same select few, you can pretty much set your clock by their appearance now.

[SaltAU]

I absolutely agree with the OP. Part of me would love to see them fall even though up until now I have enjoyed their games. I normally don't like seeing people or companies fail unless they have a touch of smugness and arrogance about them. These guys do and i despise that.

[Blackwater]

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/49494/rift/

Yeah... And? It stays pretty consistent and infact jumps up on the 7th week

 

SWTOR on the other hand had over a 70% drop off on the second week

[MrTijger]

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/49494/rift/

 

And another lie by our resident gray poster....he's on a roll, aint he? But we are the eval ones who dont allow honest criticism...yah.

[bbbmmmlll]

Bioware is trying to be the next Blizzard and they're failing MISERABLY. They've alienated their hard core fans and hoped to gain new ones. Instead all they've done is lost support.

 

I feel the same. It seems, and I know it's a bit of a stretch, that BW tried to out casual WoW with SWtOR. The crafting is crazy easy, you have a companion to help you, heavy instancing, linear areas, weak end game, no default attack(to keep you constantly doing something), easy death penalty and voice acting that encourages trying different classes. On the other hand you have classes like the Jedi Knight which have so many hotkeys that they become difficult to manage which suggests a lack of cohesion in the design vision.

 

I also feel, and this puts me in with the tin foil hat crowd, that BW/EA cut a lot of corners and positioned the game to bank on it's hype and the fact that the Star Wars brand will keep a certain number of players around indefinitely. Overcharge on the retail price, sell lots of copies up front, launch when it maximizes sales, limited innovation, safe simple design and keep the costs of developing the game and running the game as low as possible. It doesn't sound like a bad strategy for a product, but it seems to me that the game lacks a certain complexity in it's design and suffers from a lot of copy and paste. It wouldn't surprise me if the game's budget wasn't as high as the rumors speculated. After all, rumors that a game cost $300 million ($200m or $150m) just add to the hype. For a different perspective, you could easily argue that BW got so caught up in the voice acting aspect of the game, that the rest of the game suffered. All of this is wild speculation.

 

The game was in development for a long time so some of this could just be from changes in direction and the team over time.

 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled fanbois vs hater discussion.

[Degarmo]

Yeah... And? It stays pretty consistent and infact jumps up on the 7th week

 

SWTOR on the other hand had over a 70% drop off on the second week

 

Rift's sales dropped percentagewise about 61 percent as well.

 

I sense a trend.

[Yemmer]

http://aboutus.ea.com/executive-sectionofficers.action#jr

 

 

 

 

Did I not say that I never SWTOR won't flop? Your integrating two different topics of discussion into one.

 

Yes it isn't 5 years ago, but considering it out sold every other game that week, that is a huge success. Considering it was one of the smoothest launches to date (confirmed by many WoW players, and previous gamers) I find that a big deal.

 

Point being games will always die. Whether SWTOR dies 10 years from now, or tomorrow there will always be people who through around the articles you just did saying "I told you so."

 

 

 

My mistake. I always get the Activison-Blizzard relationship backwards.

 

 

Thats fine, It is, in my opinion somewhat sad.. i dont see Activisions name on more games, I mean.. they have done some INCREDIBLE work in the past, Interstate 76 for example. Interstate '76 is a vehicular combat video game for Windows. It was developed and published by Activision and released in March 1997.

HEART, SOUL AND DEDICATION!!! <3

 

But at the same time, they take a very very small role in how Blizzard works: thus Blizzard is able to do their own thing and succeed so well in the path they choose to go, Activision does not step in and say: "Well we like this idea more, do this instead, because we will have more/faster sales, then we want you to get to work on this."

 

Which is why Bioware is having so much trouble.. Oh god i get butterfly's watching the I76' intro.. Er.. anyway.. yeah

Edited January 14, 2012 by Yemmer

[Ultrazen]

Here's the deal: I want SWTOR to survive and flourish. I really like the game overall. However, there are GLARING issues with this game (I'm not going to rehash them here...no point in repeating it) and yet Bioware seems to be blissfully (blindly?) boastful of their game. I get how PR works, blah, blah (so don't attempt to give me a lesson), but I have seen ZERO humility on Bioware's part that indicates that they have heard their customers. Look at Trion. Whether you like Rift or not (I found it to be rather bland myself) that is a company working its a*s off for your $15 a month. They have approached the community with humility and open ears, and it has paid off. Meanwhile, Bioware is too busy spinning the hype machine and patting itself on the back to approach the community's concerns humbly and comprehensively.

 

Please know that I am writing this post as a fan of the game (and Bioware) and I really want the game to succeed. In my life, I have never seen an individual or entity succeed in the long term by avoiding self-reflection and constructive criticism.....ever.

 

I have to 100% disagree that Trions handling of things has made that game "better". Knee jerk reactions to forum posts and rebalancing your game in rushed patches, is not a vote of confidence that a Dev has a handle on what they are doing. Trion has destroyed Rift several times over, and it's one of the reasons I left. To quick to pull the trigger on changes.

 

MMOs got into the state they are in by listening to players. Players wanted things easier, devs did it. Players wanted to be able to solo, devs did it. Players wanted easier access to better loot, devs did it. What all that has actually accomplished, is lowering player retention because there is no pride of ownership for anything. NOTHING takes any real amount of work to get, therefore nothing has any perceived value.

 

The half life of new MMOs gets shorter and shorter, and it's directly attributable to Devs catering too often and too much to forum whines.

 

Running an MMO has to be like a dom/sub relationship. If you the Dev, and you're not the Dom, you're in trouble.

[Daedalin]

Yeah... And? It stays pretty consistent and infact jumps up on the 7th week

 

SWTOR on the other hand had over a 70% drop off on the second week

 

You really want to compare the two games? A game that sold more in it's first week than the other in the majority of it's sales lifetime?

 

Yes, the sales are consistent, but as I've said before, it's about keeping the subscribers. Why do you think so many MMO's have gone under, and why so many are still alive? (I.E. FFXI, EVE Online, Everquest, LOTRO, etc etc.)

 

Put it this way... let's say game A sells 10 copies, but keeps 10 subscribers at 15 bucks a month. That's 150 bucks a month.

 

Game B sells 100 copies, but keeps 50 subscribers. That's 750 bucks a month.

 

Now let's say game A KEEPS all their subscribers, and eventually starts to gain subscribers. And game B is continually losing subscribers at a 50% loss rate. Who do you think will last longer?

 

I'm not saying RIFT is a bad game. Played it myself and it felt waay to "Wowish" to get into it. But I would by no means continually subscribe to it.

[Jswizzle]

Rift really hasn't been doing that well. I find it funny when people bring this up. I was at Pax Prime in Seattle this past August.

 

I was Volunteering as an exhibitor for the Meridian 59 booth. We met a designer and someone from QA from Rift. They seemed desperate for people to play their game.

[Jett-Rinn]

You know I find it laughable that the hardcores keep screaming: You need us You need us!!!! and the truth of the matter is it is the causal base that left after the Cataclysm fiasco thta Blizzard is desperately trying to win back and at this point they would be happy to just not to lose any more....hell I suspect next they will walk peopel personally to Deathwing and hand them tier gear if they promise to re-up for another year.

 

Bioware understands who pays it's bills and brings its employees those all important bonuses and it isn't the fifteen hardcores who constantly piss and moan on this forum.

 

This game will not change it's core principals; they have seen the disaster that brings; Either you accept TOR for what it is or move on...or continue to pay them 15 bucks a month just to complain on the forums.

[Blackwater]

You really want to compare the two games? A game that sold more in it's first week than the other in the majority of it's sales lifetime?

 

Yes, the sales are consistent, but as I've said before, it's about keeping the subscribers. Why do you think so many MMO's have gone under, and why so many are still alive? (I.E. FFXI, EVE Online, Everquest, LOTRO, etc etc.)

 

Put it this way... let's say game A sells 10 copies, but keeps 10 subscribers at 15 bucks a month. That's 150 bucks a month.

 

Game B sells 100 copies, but keeps 50 subscribers. That's 750 bucks a month.

 

Now let's say game A KEEPS all their subscribers, and eventually starts to gain subscribers. And game B is continually losing subscribers at a 50% loss rate. Who do you think will last longer?

 

I'm not saying RIFT is a bad game. Played it myself and it felt waay to "Wowish" to get into it. But I would by no means continually subscribe to it.

 

Do i really need to explain WHY SWTOR sold so much in it's first week?

 

And not to mention that fact that it's losing activity, which mean if SWTOR was selling (presumably) well, than activity should have either stayed the same or gone up, but it isn't. It's declining. And not even steadily, it's falling with the fury of a thousand Hindenburgs

 

Because here are the facts. Week 1 had 16 full servers, week 2 went down to about 8 and this week they're struggling to keep 1-2 full servers ON WEEKENDS.

 

You can say they're raising the server cap, but that isn't consistent with the activity charts, so SOMEONE is lying

[Daedalin]

Thats fine, It is, in my opinion somewhat sad.. i dont see Activisions name on more games, I mean.. they have done some INCREDIBLE work in the past, Interstate 76 for example. Interstate '76 is a vehicular combat video game for Windows. It was developed and published by Activision and released in March 1997.

HEART, SOUL AND DEDICATION!!! <3

 

But at the same time, they take a very very small role in how Blizzard works: thus Blizzard is able to do their own thing and succeed so well in the path they choose to go, Activision does not step in and say: "Well we like this idea more, do this instead, because we will have more/faster sales, then we want you to get to work on this."

 

Which is why Bioware is having so much trouble.. Oh god i get butterfly's watching the I76' intro.. Er.. anyway.. yeah

 

Exactly! Maybe I'm not explaining myself properly, but most people do not see Bioware as a part of EA. Most people want to blame Bioware for any issue they can. Credit card got charged? Bioware's fault. Ticket response time low? Bioware's fault. Dog died? Biowares fault.

 

Yet I personally think that most people fail to realize the relationship Bioware has with EA, how controlling EA is, and how money grubbing they are. Activision/Blizzard are VERY blessed with their business partnership, in that neither harms the others ability to flourish. Bioware/EA...well...

[GetPloughed]

I must say I agree with this sentiment. I am in LOVE with and addicted to the game, however it's impossible to overlook the problems others have had. I myself have not experienced such issues but my husband has as well as a few of our friends. Regardless of how I feel about 'the other mmo that many of us left', I can't help be reminded of how in touch with the player base the devs were. Whether you loved them or hated them, they talked to us. Bioware's automated responses and surgical removal of all unconstructive forum posts seems to be the extent of their communication with the players.

 

A little bit of frank disclosure and humble, THOROUGH explanation of WHAT exactly Bioware is doing to fix these issues would go a LONG way, IMO....and I'm no expert, just a married mother on a budget that expects to get what she pays for.

 

"In touch with the playerbase"

 

They copy and pasted a Pokemon mini game into their MMO and they're in touch with the playerbase?

[Yemmer]

 

 

 

MMmmmm Yes, Nostalgia..

[Blackwater]

Rift really hasn't been doing that well. I find it funny when people bring this up. I was at Pax Prime in Seattle this past August.

 

I was Volunteering as an exhibitor for the Meridian 59 booth. We met a designer and someone from QA from Rift. They seemed desperate for people to play their game.

Of course it isn't doing well. It tried to out-WoW WoW.

 

So is SWTOR, only difference is SWTOR has even LESS innovation than Rift

 

I'm almost inclined to WANT this game to fail so people will stop with this easy money non-sense, but I don't like to see people lose jobs in this economy

[wifeaggro]

Here's the deal: I want SWTOR to survive and flourish. I really like the game overall. However, there are GLARING issues with this game (I'm not going to rehash them here...no point in repeating it) and yet Bioware seems to be blissfully (blindly?) boastful of their game. I get how PR works, blah, blah (so don't attempt to give me a lesson), but I have seen ZERO humility on Bioware's part that indicates that they have heard their customers. Look at Trion. Whether you like Rift or not (I found it to be rather bland myself) that is a company working its a*s off for your $15 a month. They have approached the community with humility and open ears, and it has paid off. Meanwhile, Bioware is too busy spinning the hype machine and patting itself on the back to approach the community's concerns humbly and comprehensively.

 

Please know that I am writing this post as a fan of the game (and Bioware) and I really want the game to succeed. In my life, I have never seen an individual or entity succeed in the long term by avoiding self-reflection and constructive criticism.....ever.

 

I agree had Hartsman been in charge of a multinational I.P. and had over 100 million dollars for production there would be a massively different climate in the MMO market. Rift is bland lvling process this is true but that endgame is solid, the graphic engine beyond solid. and has had the most rigorous update cycle i have ever seen they have literaly made an expansion pack in last 6 months for free.

For now i am going to give SWTOR the benefit of doubt simply because its new and i do think once BW takes their lumps they may have the ability to suck it up and start changing what needs to be changed. if not i will return to Rift its the best MMO on the market currently.

[bbbmmmlll]

http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/49494/rift/

 

Rift has been very public about their sales numbers and have announced sales over 1m and that they have seen significant growth over time. This report has sales under 500k. Maybe Trion is lying or it's low because vgchartz doesn't include Amazon, Walmart or digital(such as Steam) sales. After an initial launch, it's generally hard to find a box copy of most MMOs so I wouldn't expect vgchartz to report much growth.

[Blackwater]

"In touch with the playerbase"

 

They copy and pasted a Pokemon mini game into their MMO and they're in touch with the playerbase?

 

Well they have 10+ million subs so obviously they're in touch with SOMEONE

Edited January 14, 2012 by Blackwater

[Daedalin]

Do i really need to explain WHY SWTOR sold so much in it's first week?

 

And not to mention that fact that it's losing activity, which mean if SWTOR was selling (presumably) well, than activity should have either stayed the same or gone up, but it isn't. It's declining. And not even steadily, it's falling with the fury of a thousand Hindenburgs

 

Because here are the facts. Week 1 had 16 full servers, week 2 went down to about 8 and this week they're struggling to keep 1-2 full servers ON WEEKENDS.

 

You can say they're raising the server cap, but that isn't consistent with the activity charts, so SOMEONE is lying

 

I know why SWTOR sold so well. Again, if you could read my post history...

 

To say a game has declined in activity around the holidays... is well short sighted. For many reasons.

 

1. School break. Younger people will play.

2. Vacations. A lot of people took vacations primarily for SWTOR. If they couldn't in December, they did in the beginning of January.

3. The reason your looking for... not being interested.

 

To also base a game on server fullness, is well also short sightedness. Your graphs show activity, but do they show if server size was increased? Also, for the 3 reasons mentioned above, game activity could have decline.

[SaltAU]

I also feel, and this puts me in with the tin foil hat crowd, that BW/EA cut a lot of corners and positioned the game to bank on it's hype and the fact that the Star Wars brand will keep a certain number of players around indefinitely. Overcharge on the retail price, sell lots of copies up front, launch when it maximizes sales, limited innovation, safe simple design and keep the costs of developing the game and running the game as low as possible..

 

At first I thought that they would maybe have done this even though it paints the developer (BioWare) in a pretty poor light. They, like Blizzard and some other developers, have built a pretty good fanbase for making good games. To tarnish that image by just throwing a game out there to make some big quick bucks seems pretty foolish, and it is. EA/BioWare didn't release world wide as we all know, so you would think if they were after quick sales they would have. Being Australian myself I can't see their Australian release on March 1st being very successful at all.

[Feskitt]

Logical fallacies 101:

 

1. State opinion as fact.
   
2. Pre-emptively label anyone who disagrees with said opinion as wrong/mentally defective.
   
3. When someone does disagree with 1., point out you already proved they were wrong.
   

 

 

In other words, you liked the garbage?

 

 

[wifeaggro]

Rift really hasn't been doing that well. I find it funny when people bring this up. I was at Pax Prime in Seattle this past August.

 

I was Volunteering as an exhibitor for the Meridian 59 booth. We met a designer and someone from QA from Rift. They seemed desperate for people to play their game.

 

Really? you should follow financials actually rift is making money hand over fist . and Trion is getting massive pressure from investors to go Public and many more devolpers begging for them to liscense their engine for use. Rift is doing quite well it sold 850 k copies and retained well over 60% at the 6 month mark. All on its own dime its own IP and its own Engine. they are raking in the cash believe me raking it in.

[Hiramas]

Do i really need to explain WHY SWTOR sold so much in it's first week?

 

And not to mention that fact that it's losing activity, which mean if SWTOR was selling (presumably) well, than activity should have either stayed the same or gone up, but it isn't. It's declining. And not even steadily, it's falling with the fury of a thousand Hindenburgs

 

Because here are the facts. Week 1 had 16 full servers, week 2 went down to about 8 and this week they're struggling to keep 1-2 full servers ON WEEKENDS.

 

You can say they're raising the server cap, but that isn't consistent with the activity charts, so SOMEONE is lying

 

why the hell can't you accept that the MAKER of the activity statistics everyone keeps quoting cannot be seen this way? BW could provide accurate statistics about subscriptions and activity- And only they. And yes, they raised server caps, people do not keep playing 24/7 like in holiday periods and so on. That are the reasons that the server seem less full.

There are people leaving after the free month, a lot more than those who have posted about it here. We will have to see how many. Im sure BW will try to boast with subscription numbers after the free month.

[Daedalin]

Rift has been very public about their sales numbers and have announced sales over 1m and that they have seen significant growth over time. This report has sales under 500k. Maybe Trion is lying or it's low because vgchartz doesn't include Amazon, Walmart or digital(such as Steam) sales. After an initial launch, it's generally hard to find a box copy of most MMOs so I wouldn't expect vgchartz to report much growth.

 

My mistake then. I figured I would report sale numbers from the same source I used to SWTOR so it would be considered even playing field.