Bioware's unshaken confidence is troubling

[Jimer_Lins]

 

 

Now the game (DA2) is pretty much a joke of the RPG world to all but the most brown-nosed sycophants.

 

 

Logical fallacies 101:

 

1. State opinion as fact.
   
2. Pre-emptively label anyone who disagrees with said opinion as wrong/mentally defective.
   
3. When someone does disagree with 1., point out you already proved they were wrong.
   

[DannyInternets]

Nope, no glaring issues that I can see either. So how many posts are you going to write today saying exactly the same thing? I'm curious.

 

Advertising features that don't exist in their product is a pretty glaring issue.

[Calimwulf]

Ohlen attributing virtually all performance issues to low-end systems and low metacritic scores to a vast conspiracy to take down TOR doesn't help. Stephen Reid telling a player who was concerned about the potential lack of viability of a level 50 bracket in Warzones given current population to "reroll" also comes off as smug and somewhat arrogant. Bioware's PR is designed to hype the game, but they unintentionally piss people off more than any other dev I've seen.

Dude, one thing that helps is to have just a little perspective. You are putting words in both those devs mouths.

Mr Reid told that gent he might think to roll on a PvP server because the OP in that post was saying that he wasn't seeing that many level 50 PvP folks running a round. The guy rolled his toon on a PvE server. The average level of toons across the board right now, regardless of server, is between 30-40. Exactly what kind of advice should one give to a 'hardcore PvP person that rolled on a PvE server?

 

It isn't a 'conspiracy' theory. Someone made a post on here about the article and all of a sudden the game goes from 0 to 80%. One post on one forum saw that kind of surge. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what happened.

 

The Bioware staff does there best to answer questions to the best of their ability. They certainly make mistakes. They also change plans and at times try the, *wave hand* "These are not the droids you are looking for", trick, but darned if they aren't as honest and polite as they can be in corporate America.

[TheHeadCapper]

OP: fanbois dont see the glare because they have on their CE edition rose-colored Peril Sensitive Sunglasses.

 

It could be they have a different opinion and they are enjoying themselves. I don't call all wow players names and say it's rose colored glasses. i realize even though i hate WoW i have a different opinion than others and they might like it.

[Lankybrit]

They are accentuating the positives because there are so many of them. They are hardly ignoring the issues, and have posted stating what they are doing about them.

 

Of course they should be confident. This is a great game.

 

Cheers.

[TheHeadCapper]

Dude, one thing that helps is to have just a little perspective. You are putting words in both those devs mouths.

Mr Reid told that gent he might think to roll on a PvP server because the OP in that post was saying that he wasn't seeing that many level 50 PvP folks running a round. The guy rolled his toon on a PvE server. The average level of toons across the board right now, regardless of server, is between 30-40. Exactly what kind of advice should one give to a 'hardcore PvP person that rolled on a PvE server?

 

.

 

There is a crusade of internet warriors who are either doing this on purpose or have no reading comprehension skills. You be the judge.

[DroidDestroyer]

The game is fun and addicting despite the non game breaking bugs. It is exactly what I expected, an MMO version of KoToR. I love it, what can I say. This is coming from a pre-cu SWG addict.

[VicSkimmr]

I have never heard a dev tell a player to reroll because of failings in end-game content. That's just the wrong answer. It blames the player for the problem which is the worst sort of business. Better for the developer to say nothing at all than suggest that the player re-roll. All that does is tend to confirm suspicions that Bioware's "end-game" is to start the game over.

 

1. Stephen Reid isn't a developer

2. He didn't tell the dude to re-roll because of end-game content. He told him to re-roll because of a lack of other players doing that content at the time... because he rushed to 50.

 

It's easy to make that conclusion when you ignore the context and actual content of the conversation.

 

 

There is no way for Bioware to know what FPS people are getting in their game. Your mythical "data" that Bioware uses doesn't exist. They will have data on things like system crashes and technical errors, but they cannot counter "I am getting drops to 23 FPS regularly" with metrics.

 

They know how many people have submitted tickets to get help with performance issues don't they? How is that mythical? Sure, some people probably have low FPS and don't seek help, but it's better than trying to take a sample from the forums and forming a conclusion based on that (which is all we have to go on).

 

 

Every game gets loads and load of 0/10's on metacritic. The problems affecting TOR affect every other game out there. Fact is, TOR's Metacritic user score is lower than average. Ohlen would have been much better off saying, "we don't lend much weight to the user scores on Metacritic due to the margin of error of self-selection polls." Instead, he concocts a very detailed exercise in industrial paranoia to try to make it sound like TOR suffers from some vast conspiracy that affects only TOR. Even if that is actually true, it's just a stupid thing to say publicly.

 

This is probably true. But hey, we're all human. I suck at public speaking, so I'm not going to harp on someone if he mis-speaks during an interview.

[Knyghtprowler]

I do not see significant "glaring" bugs that in my mind should humble them and say, "Ooops, yeah we knew this would happen, but wanted to sneak it out. " This is not Star Wars Galaxies.

 

Bugs != Issues...

 

I agree there are GLARING "issues" with this game. Bug wise I would say this game is the least buggy MMO I have played, and I have played just about every top title released over the last 15years.

 

I could also sit here and derail the thread pointing all of those glaring issues out - but it isn't the OP's point. There are plenty of posts I can and do post in on those subjects.

[Mannic]

There is a crusade of internet warriors who are either doing this on purpose or have no reading comprehension skills. You be the judge.

 

Yes, the vast conspiracy again. Developer echoes fanboys, fanboys resonate developer, the din of white knight rationalization of issues becomes deafening, until so many people have quit the game that only the developers and die-hard fanboys remain.

[MaGicBush]

Ohlen attributing virtually all performance issues to low-end systems and low metacritic scores to a vast conspiracy to take down TOR doesn't help. Stephen Reid telling a player who was concerned about the potential lack of viability of a level 50 bracket in Warzones given current population to "reroll" also comes off as smug and somewhat arrogant. Bioware's PR is designed to hype the game, but they unintentionally piss people off more than any other dev I've seen.

 

No, that would be Aventurine as the worst developer in the MMO market that pissed people off and out and out lied to their community time and again(Darkfall).

 

Logical fallacies 101:

 

State opinion as fact.

Pre-emptively label anyone who disagrees with said opinion as wrong/mentally defective.

When someone does disagree with 1., point out you already proved they were wrong.

 

Nope, he's right your wrong. His logic owns yours, DA2 was horrid and the lack of community for that game showed it.

Edited January 13, 2012 by MaGicBush

[Valenthor]

Here's the deal: I want SWTOR to survive and flourish. I really like the game overall. However, there are GLARING issues with this game (I'm not going to rehash them here...no point in repeating it) and yet Bioware seems to be blissfully (blindly?) boastful of their game. I get how PR works, blah, blah (so don't attempt to give me a lesson), but I have seen ZERO humility on Bioware's part that indicates that they have heard their customers. Look at Trion. Whether you like Rift or not (I found it to be rather bland myself) that is a company working its a*s off for your $15 a month. They have approached the community with humility and open ears, and it has paid off. Meanwhile, Bioware is too busy spinning the hype machine and patting itself on the back to approach the community's concerns humbly and comprehensively.

 

Please know that I am writing this post as a fan of the game (and Bioware) and I really want the game to succeed. In my life, I have never seen an individual or entity succeed in the long term by avoiding self-reflection and constructive criticism.....ever.

 

What are you talking about? They have a blog talking about feedback and they have MANY posts directly addressing issues and telling people they are working on it. I have rarely seen such actual responses to problems in any type of game. In addition, they have actively remade capped threads about key problems, so they can see the feedback. I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and calm down. Sort of feel like these forums are way overflowing with angst, uncertainty, false confidence, and doom saying.

[gurugeorge]

 

Please know that I am writing this post as a fan of the game (and Bioware) and I really want the game to succeed. In my life, I have never seen an individual or entity succeed in the long term by avoiding self-reflection and constructive criticism.....ever.

 

Dev Tracker is your friend. To my eyes, their responses have been firm, but reasonably frequent and informative and considerate of players' wishes. About average for MMO developers' responses - better and more frequent than Blizzard's responses, a bit firmer and less frequent than other developers' responses, like, say Cryptic's (who are very responsive indeed).

 

Forums are forums, useful to have and informative up to a point, but ultimately BioWare have the metrics that matter, and they will base their decisions (and responses) on those, not on forum QQ (or even praise).

[TheHeadCapper]

Yes, the vast conspiracy again. Developer echoes fanboys, fanboys resonate developer, the din of white knight rationalization of issues becomes deafening, until so many people have quit the game that only the developers and die-hard fanboys remain.

 

NO they just can't read very well because they've spent their life on the internet. Not sure what you're talking about.

[Aisar]

There is a huge divide in opinion here when it comes to what this game should be Post-Launch. I have noticed this simply because being on the forums so much for weeks starts to reveal patterns (example being for whatever reason NVidia cards seem to be having a WAY better time then the rest of us AMD/ATI users)

 

The pros are saying the game is lacking or not finished because they know what other games have/do and we know what a successful MMO can bring to the table. DISCLAIMER-I realize you might be a pro and love this game. Good for you!

 

The newbies are having a blast, because they do not know any better. They cannot draw from past experience that simply does not exist. Case in point, Looking For Dungeon tool. They have no clue how badly this is needed.

 

Personally I am with the pro group (13 years of MMOs, 7 years of World of Warcraft). I also play the First Person Shooter and Single Player Roleplayer Game market extensively. So I believe I have quite a good idea what I am talking about and what is going on

 

I will probably resubscribe, but know it is only becaue I will never go back to WoW and there is literally nothing else I would rather play. Maybe a little EQ1/EQ2 but not long term, serious/dedicated.

[Taurusaud]

WOW certainly was not this refined on launch, and certain bugs are to be expected. It's software development, it's not rocket science.

 

That's such a total lie.

 

 

WoW had a responsive UI working right out the door. It's 7 years later and SwTOR can't even get THAT right.

 

 

WoW had mobs that wandered around and even talked to eachother as opposed to mobs that just sit there lifelessly in this game. WoW had underwater areas you could swim to, critters walking about and attacking one another, day/night cycles, music, the ability to sit and lie down, a combat log, and live mounts, ALL ON RELEASE. Bioware has cited "technical difficulties" when asked about the potential for bringing live mounts into this game.

 

 

WoW had infinitely more detailed and imaginative landscapes compared to SwTOR where every planet's ecosystem looks EXACTLY LIKE EARTH. Seriously who plays a space MMO to see oak trees? Where are the liquid nitrogen forests and electric gas clouds? Where is the alien plantlife?? Alien planets are such an opportunity to be creative and oak trees is what they came up with!? WoW's space zones were actually imaginative.

 

 

Is a non-working UI to be expected? Because most gamers expect a working UI, in fact most MMOs since WoW have failed because of a broken UI. How is it with a $100+ million budget they can't accomplish in 2011 what Blizzard did 7 years ago with a lower budget.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Taurusaud

[Makade]

Sorry, I was 'speaking' to the OP .)

 

Apparently, you missed the part where I said I really like the game. In fact, I like the game so much that I was compelled to make this thread.

[Nytak]

yeah ...it's not like they didn't just launch a massive game after extensive development to generally rave reviews, with near zero issues at launch.... to large/promising playerbase.

 

 

...nothing to be confident about there.

 

 

it's also GLARINGLY obvious that the game has been out less than a month. if this is your first MMO. maybe you don't know.

 

but the first 1-6mo of a new MMO is basically... paid beta.

 

expect. odd graphics glitches. bugged/missing content. rash class imbalance and totally borked game dynamics/exploits to be found.

 

 

also... GLARINGLY obvious. that the first month or so. any patch that comes down the line. will be to fix something that they can fix. or an emergancy type issue that has to be fixed.

 

also GLARINGLY obvious. users will QQ endlessly. talk as if they know stuff. make up facts, figures, and stats. claim they're unsubbing. worst game ever. server population is abandoning ship. sky is falling et al.

 

 

...so honestly. this is all par for the course.

 

but as always. if you're not having fun. no one is forcing you to play. and if you're not having fun. probably shouldn't get overly upset about it. and just not play

 

You forgot the conspiracy theories. I just dumped my personal savings and 401k into Reynolds Wrap. I should retire a billionaire in a couple weeks.

[Makade]

I think they should be proud of their accomplishment. They have brought a very complex product to market, have thoroughly tested it, and broken records while doing it.

 

I do not see significant "glaring" bugs that in my mind should humble them and say, "Ooops, yeah we knew this would happen, but wanted to sneak it out. " This is not Star Wars Galaxies.

 

I think you opinion comes from a good place, but really...let them pat themselves on the back and say, "We did good."

 

WOW certainly was not this refined on launch, and certain bugs are to be expected. It's software development, it's not rocket science.

 

I think they should be proud of their accomplishment as well, and I have even thanked them publically on these very forums. However, the launch is over and we are officially in the "player retention" phase (ie, you sold millions of copies of the game and have had a month of popping champagne corks, but let's now move on to building rapport with your customers, shall we?).

[louisfriend]

There is a huge divide in opinion here when it comes to what this game should be Post-Launch. I have noticed this simply because being on the forums so much for weeks starts to reveal patterns (example being for whatever reason NVidia cards seem to be having a WAY better time then the rest of us AMD/ATI users)

 

The pros are saying the game is lacking or not finished because they know what other games have/do and we know what a successful MMO can bring to the table. DISCLAIMER-I realize you might be a pro and love this game. Good for you!

 

The newbies are having a blast, because they do not know any better. They cannot draw from past experience that simply does not exist. Case in point, Looking For Dungeon tool. They have no clue how badly this is needed.

 

Personally I am with the pro group (13 years of MMOs, 7 years of World of Warcraft). I also play the First Person Shooter and Single Player Roleplayer Game market extensively. So I believe I have quite a good idea what I am talking about and what is going on

 

I will probably resubscribe, but know it is only becaue I will never go back to WoW and there is literally nothing else I would rather play. Maybe a little EQ1/EQ2 but not long term, serious/dedicated.

 

time spent doesn't = pro

 

have played many different mmos. muds, FPS and other games. Swtor launch is perfectly fine.

 

yes there are some issues. class balance. graphics glitches, UI fail and under-developed ideas (ie legacy)

 

but if you're such a pro. and vetran of mmos. you should have the intelligence to know that the game is less than a month old.

 

the saying. never play the month after patch day was coined in games with monthly updates where the game was borked nearly all month.

 

every mmo launches with bugs, glitches. imbalances. and a wild ride of exploits, glaring imbalance and gimmicky builds.

 

that's why first 6 mo is paid beta.

 

not everyone is a fanboi. and no one speaks for everyone.

 

only sith deal in absolutes.

 

 

 

people honestly just need to **** and chill out for awhile. if you think the devs don't know something...submit a ticket. if you think they're not working on things. you're a fool. if you say they don't respond. you're a liar and a fool.

 

if you say... they're level of X isn't up to my standards ...i don't like that. sure fine... that's an opinion. perfectly fine.

 

but people sling slop like it's passed down from on high. it's really getting pathetic on these boards.

[Jett-Rinn]

Yes Bioware should be wringing their hands at the utter failure of having what is being called the Smoothest MMO launch ever and 3.2 million subscribers and growing (according to the investment firm Crowley & Associates) their glaring issues like not being able to resize your UI and not being able to run flash-points all day Via LFD is just inexcusable when will they stop swimming in their Scrooge McDuck Vault of money and realize they have failed?????

 

[gtmach]

I disagree. They released an article on IGN.com a few wks ago talking about how BW recognized the framerate issue and that they are actively working on it. They constantly patch this game and release those notes to us players.

 

As far as PR goes, EVERY company would be promoting their game. Do you understand how it works?

 

What company goes out there saying "our game is buggy so don't buy it right now....."

 

The game isn't horribly buggy. Countless reviews have mentioned the smooth launch that took place. Bugs are constantly being fixed as the weeks go on. It's an MMO, this is all expected.

[Turgann]

I think they should be proud of their accomplishment. They have brought a very complex product to market, have thoroughly tested it, and broken records while doing it.

 

I do not see significant "glaring" bugs that in my mind should humble them and say, "Ooops, yeah we knew this would happen, but wanted to sneak it out. " This is not Star Wars Galaxies.

 

I think you opinion comes from a good place, but really...let them pat themselves on the back and say, "We did good."

 

WOW certainly was not this refined on launch, and certain bugs are to be expected. It's software development, it's not rocket science.

 

This! Let them be proud of what they have done! They have done alot.

[Valenthor]

Yes, the vast conspiracy again. Developer echoes fanboys, fanboys resonate developer, the din of white knight rationalization of issues becomes deafening, until so many people have quit the game that only the developers and die-hard fanboys remain.

 

Doom saying black knights are just as wrong and just as annoying. So delusional that they believe their own personal opinions/problems with a game actually make a good indicator of the game's future success. Very easy to throw out "predictions" anonymously, where no one can call you out when they are flat out wrong. They don't go away either, WoW forums are filled with useless doom saying about every change/patch/expansion. Self-important, delusional, fledgling Nostradamus'.

[Trandel]

Nope, no glaring issues that I can see either. So how many posts are you going to write today saying exactly the same thing? I'm curious.

 

I've seen more issues in this game than in most and I've been mmo gaming for almost 10 years now. So white knight, how many hours are you gonna roam the forums today looking to troll anyone that says anything at all that is even somewhat negative about this game? I'm just curious.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Trandel