1.1 Changes for Jugg

[dalehitchy]

Making the cool down of endure pain will not ensure survivability .. *** bioware....

It just means I get to use it more often...

 

The same thing will happen ... I'm about to die... Use endure pain.... 1/5 chance of killing the guy because of it.. Then a gust of wind knocks me out cus 20 seconds have ended...

 

I didn't play beta.... But the biggest thing the warrior needs is a force pull or 15% speed boost. This is how pvp goes for my jugg... I get attackked from a far.. I force leap over.. Do a couple hits if I'm lucky... Then I'm stunned or pushed back... Im hit from afar with force leap still on cool down.. I run towards them... They begin to kite round me... So I cnt get close... If I'm not dead by now.. I get another force leap in.... Only to be pushed back by another one of their abilities... And hit from a far until I'm dead...

 

Warriors need a force pull or a speed boost.

[Banivisa]

Funny again it comes down to players not knowing how to play their class and use their abilities.

 

These are all good buffs are they enough? Maybe, maybe not we'll know by the end of the month. Seriously those of you complaining about enduring pain cd getting cut in half?

 

Noobs you're using it wrong!

 

Unless you're running with a healer Enduring Pain is not a defensive cd it's an offensive one!

Those hps should never be around when it ends, those a the first hps you should be losing in a fight. You use it right before they burst you, you use it while you're still above 70% health it's free hps that you use as mitigation to avoid their burst. You use it just as you use cc to stop someones burst, it should damn near always be on cd if your not running with a healer.

 

Learn to use your abilities then complain. All these complaints about it killing you, well guess what; you were already dead before you used it.

[FuzioNdapro]

Its nice to see that they are doing somthing atleast, now i do not want to sound negative, but fixing threat and maybe some talent points being more useful in both pve and pvp in the Immortal talent tree is more needed than doing this.

 

If u are playing immortal and being kited around u gotta be really really awful.

 

Force choke,your melee stun, saber throw,deadly threow, force push, force charge. while this u got 3 *** cooldowns and u got the best aoe slow in the game, not only this u got obsorb on force scream(maybe should buff the amount of absorb with like 10-15% maybe?

 

i mean atm i can have 5-6 players jumping on me with flag and trying to put me down it takes them around 1 minute with my cooldowns ready 6 players nuking you alone surviving for around 1 min without taking any heal, if ur telling me that aint survivability then somthing is wrong, fyi u aint suppose to kill ppl, ur a savior helping ppl out knocking ppl away from heal guarding ppl and maybe somtime kill ofc, but its not your main objective.

 

 

We do good amount of damage, allthou it could been buffed, assasin tanks...... nerf plsssssss

[Frostbird]

The impression I am getting from forums today is:

 

If you want to tank, roll Trooper/BH. If you want to dps, roll a ranged. If you want to raid, don't roll a JK/SW.

[Joxerthemighty]

sithwarrior: lifetaps, make it happen

 

also some sort of vacuum or grab skill.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Joxerthemighty

[FuzioNdapro]

I would understand it for vengence specced but then it should be a talent i dont feel any problem being kited as immortal in pvp otherway around, they cant get rid of me.

 

now it will be even worse so putting a subtalent in either vengence or rage would be better a tier 1 talent with 2 talents that makes saber throw the long one reset your force charge would be so much better. now giving me a free other charge as immortal. well imo its to good also.

 

Instead of focusing on this maybe fix the mittigation talents and threat for Immortal is somthing they should priotize not this! becuse its way more broken than this.

[Enerzeal]

Thanks for the force push buff.

 

I pick up the ball in HuttBall and force charge someone across the acid pit.

 

I push them so I can get my CD back.

 

I drop down into the pit and charge someone coming out of respawn.

 

I get knocked down and use my 10 meter charge to get back up.

 

I get knocked down again somehow and charge is nearly cooled down anyway.

 

Or I can intercede up.

 

Or I can punch every defensive I have and wait for someone to pass to.

 

Bioware: This buff does one thing only, break us in Huttball an area that we already rock face in.

[anhtice]

Thanks for the force push buff.

 

I pick up the ball in HuttBall and force charge someone across the acid pit.

 

I push them so I can get my CD back.

 

I drop down into the pit and charge someone coming out of respawn.

 

I get knocked down and use my 10 meter charge to get back up.

 

I get knocked down again somehow and charge is nearly cooled down anyway.

 

Or I can intercede up.

 

Or I can punch every defensive I have and wait for someone to pass to.

 

Bioware: This buff does one thing only, break us in Huttball an area that we already rock face in.

 

lol i can imagien hopping down to the pit, getting speed, running around/getting the heal on the side until someone is out the gate, then charging them and push to charge to the goal line

[TotalImmortal]

There is only 2 changes I want:

1) Reduce Force Push cooldown to 30 secs. It's anyway always works wrong, you can never predict where moving or even stunned target will be pushed.

2) Add to any attack some 30 sec DoT with laughable damage, which will not allow other players to restore health and use turrets/doors/bombs. Any other class have such DoT, so why we haven't.

[BubblegumYeti]

Easy fix for tanks in MMO PvP. Makes tanks TOTALLY immune to cc. This should be a standard feature of any MMO IMHO.

[Renesis]

These changes only make immortal juggs even more viable.

[bliapis]

yea i was a little perplexed at their statement, and then the patch notes.

 

 

i guess id rather see force charge reset the cd on force push instead of the other way around. at least i can one shot kill people with push if i get lucky

 

and endure pain, maybe if you didnt lose the life after 10 sec? i dunno. maybe there is more coming in future patches

 

That makes more sense to me too. Have Charge , lower the cooldown on push sounds about right. Force push atm is our only real CC that takes affect of saber throw plus charge.

[bliapis]

Also enable Pommel and kick in pvp. That will give us a boost on a survivability. Both attacks hit quite hard and being able to lower some change oh health or shield from the opponent is vital.

 

TBH even force scream should be able to stun (with diminishing returns) and smash too. The way it works now only renders the saber wielders weak and common

[bliapis]

What happens with enduring pain is this:

 

The percentage of health stays the same like before the activation and stays the same again after the buff wears out.

 

What changes is the health before - during buff - after.

[Kojiyama]

These changes only make immortal juggs even more viable.

 

And by viable you mean "pretty much worthless outside of leap shenanigans in Huttball"?

 

Because the combination of Defense/Absorb being virtually useless in PvP and our low DPS, there's really no particular advantage to having a Juggernaut on your team.

[Helig]

Yeah, try to tell me that dps specs are working as intended when you can be in pretty much a 100% melee fight with a trooper and still lose.

DPS juggernauts should be feared if they're able to stay on you in melee range. The trooper didn't even bother trying to keep me out of range.

 

The endure pain 'buff' is a pathetic attempt to resolve the problem.

And the changes to force leap is only useful in pvp. Wonderful.

 

Enure\Endure Pain should act as "extra HP", not as a "hp bar extension". Essentially, that would mean that damage would be first applied to those extra hitpoints, and, when the effect ends, the only thing we should lose is the extended bar.

 

 

Right now, sadly, that's not the case.

 

 

On a separate note, I killed a level 50 Juggernaut as a level 20 Sniper one on one in Huttball. I didn't have the advantage of attacking first - it was basically a duel. I also had like 30-40% HP left after I finished him. He seemed to have a couple of PvP pieces, and an average health pool (around 15k, if I'm not mistaken).

 

And I'm not the best PvPer, let alone Sniper around. Juggs and Guards definitely need buffs.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Helig

[kikleon]

Enure\Endure Pain should act as "extra HP", not as a "hp bar extension". Essentially, that would mean that damage would be first applied to those extra hitpoints, and, when the effect ends, the only thing we should lose is the extended bar.

 

 

Right now, sadly, that's not the case.

 

 

On a separate note, I killed a level 50 Juggernaut as a level 20 Sniper one on one in Huttball. I didn't have the advantage of attacking first - it was basically a duel. I also had like 30-40% HP left after I finished him. He seemed to have a couple of HP pieces, and an average health pool (around 15k, if I'm not mistaken).

 

And I'm not the best PvPer, let alone Sniper around. Juggs and Guards definitely need buffs.

 

On that separate note, I rolled a sniper and a trooper (still playing jug just as alts). Sniper lvl 12 I believe, or whatever level you first get ambush, popping off 5.8k crits in pvp. Ambush - explosive probe, each crit for about 2800 into lower 3k's. Easily 1v1'ing level 50 melees on the sniper with 2 stuns and a short cooldown root.

 

As for the trooper, I have a video of being top damage by about 30k as a lvl 10 trooper, no advanced class in voidstar. Q'd up with 2 friends on republic side, I was a 10 trooper, another was a 10 sage, and a 23? scoundrel. Didn't plan on doing well but when we set the bombs on the third door I decided to start recording and ended up doing really well.

[slelfief]

My issue with Juggernaut over the other classes isn't that it's underpowered, because it really isn't, but that it is extremely clumsy to play. The Jugg only really needs a few QOL improvements to be more fun and feel less broken. These current batch of changes are out of touch with the main issues. Edited January 16, 2012 by slelfief

[youwillburn]

Endure pain is worthless. This is BW being too ***** to shift away from the skill effects WoW set in place. They don't want to make changes because they're aware this combat system copies WoW , and if you change something WoW came up with you *might* unbalance it.

 

There was a Endure Pain in Guildwars as well which did the same thing of give temporary HP, and its widely regarded as one of the worst skills in the game.

[Helig]

My issue with Juggernaut over the other classes isn't that it's underpowered, because it really isn't, but that it is extremely clumsy to play. The Jugg only really needs a few QOL improvements to be more fun and feel less broken. These current batch of changes are out of touch with the main issues.

 

True. Focus\Rage generation in Soresu should be increased greatly. It's OK in PvE, due to the fact that you get a lot of Courage aka Revenge procs. I have decent avoidance and shield, so my Sweeps (Smashes) are practically free and my Storms (screams) are very cheap. In PvP, however, I feel a lot less comfortable. When I'm alone I switch between Shii-Cho and Soresu, but I can't really do that in a group, since Guard only works in Soresu.

 

Among other things, Blade Storm\Force Scream shield should be looked at. It should scale better with our primary stats, at the very least. I also think it should be renewable faster. 9 seconds seems to be a very comfortable time for Blade Storm\Force scream. Why it can't be made baseline (or why tanks can't get cooldown reduction for it, since with Barrier, it seems to be designed with a defensive quality in mind).

 

The tree should be streamlined. Focus\Rage cost-reducing talents should be rolled into much fewer talent points. We also need more valuable defensive talents in higher tiers. I believe that a talent that turns Enure into a true self-heal could be good, as well as some sort of active defense (similar to Defense increase after Riposte and the currently unimpressive shield from Storm\Scream).

 

AoE threat, dealing with scattered ranged packs - this also needs to be looked at. I think either a cone-action pull as a top-tier Defense\Immortal talent, or a fairly spammable multitarget saberthrow with an aggro modifier would even the playing field.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Helig

[Guaritorr]

Funny again it comes down to players not knowing how to play their class and use their abilities.

 

These are all good buffs are they enough? Maybe, maybe not we'll know by the end of the month. Seriously those of you complaining about enduring pain cd getting cut in half?

 

Noobs you're using it wrong!

 

Unless you're running with a healer Enduring Pain is not a defensive cd it's an offensive one!

Those hps should never be around when it ends, those a the first hps you should be losing in a fight. You use it right before they burst you, you use it while you're still above 70% health it's free hps that you use as mitigation to avoid their burst. You use it just as you use cc to stop someones burst, it should damn near always be on cd if your not running with a healer.

 

Learn to use your abilities then complain. All these complaints about it killing you, well guess what; you were already dead before you used it.

 

Thats not how Endure pain works. Any health you gained is lost I.E. Your max hp is 15k, it heals you for 5k and increases your max to 20k, then once its done it reduces your max to 15k and then removes 5k hp REGARDLESS of how much health you had. If someone did 15k damage to you during that fight, then your left with 1 hp at the end of endure pain. So using it at the start of a fight is actually the most useless place to use it.

[LaManoNera]

Enure\Endure Pain should act as "extra HP", not as a "hp bar extension". Essentially, that would mean that damage would be first applied to those extra hitpoints, and, when the effect ends, the only thing we should lose is the extended bar.

 

 

Right now, sadly, that's not the case.

 

 

It should just be an HP bubble (which I guess is the same thing you described). Because, let's face it, at level 50 or even with bolstered stats, what's the difference between Juggernaut/Guardian any any other "DPS" class when it comes to defense to justify the Jug/Guard not having as high as DPS as those classes? There would be no problem with our current DPS if we actually had the tools to survive long enough for that DPS to pay off.

[JamieM]

Funny again it comes down to players not knowing how to play their class and use their abilities.

 

These are all good buffs are they enough? Maybe, maybe not we'll know by the end of the month. Seriously those of you complaining about enduring pain cd getting cut in half?

 

Noobs you're using it wrong!

 

Unless you're running with a healer Enduring Pain is not a defensive cd it's an offensive one!

Those hps should never be around when it ends, those a the first hps you should be losing in a fight. You use it right before they burst you, you use it while you're still above 70% health it's free hps that you use as mitigation to avoid their burst. You use it just as you use cc to stop someones burst, it should damn near always be on cd if your not running with a healer.

 

Learn to use your abilities then complain. All these complaints about it killing you, well guess what; you were already dead before you used it.

 

Erm thats not how it works

Edited January 16, 2012 by JamieM

[FuzioNdapro]

Enure\Endure Pain should act as "extra HP", not as a "hp bar extension". Essentially, that would mean that damage would be first applied to those extra hitpoints, and, when the effect ends, the only thing we should lose is the extended bar.

 

 

Right now, sadly, that's not the case.

 

 

On a separate note, I killed a level 50 Juggernaut as a level 20 Sniper one on one in Huttball. I didn't have the advantage of attacking first - it was basically a duel. I also had like 30-40% HP left after I finished him. He seemed to have a couple of PvP pieces, and an average health pool (around 15k, if I'm not mistaken).

 

And I'm not the best PvPer, let alone Sniper around. Juggs and Guards definitely need buffs.

 

You sir u dont have any clue what bad players are do u? there is no way a immortal jugg would lose to a lvl 20 sniper. not even if he runs in greens and its a pure 1 vs1. he got more close gap abilities than u got. and he also will deflect around 25% of your attacks.

 

So no either you lie by a large margin or that player was so bad my granny could be behind that screen playing.

[Helig]

It should just be an HP bubble (which I guess is the same thing you described). Because, let's face it, at level 50 or even with bolstered stats, what's the difference between Juggernaut/Guardian any any other "DPS" class when it comes to defense to justify the Jug/Guard not having as high as DPS as those classes? There would be no problem with our current DPS if we actually had the tools to survive long enough for that DPS to pay off.

I actually like the shield idea. Could work, I suppose.

You sir u dont have any clue what bad players are do u? there is no way a immortal jugg would lose to a lvl 20 sniper. not even if he runs in greens and its a pure 1 vs1. he got more close gap abilities than u got. and he also will deflect around 25% of your attacks.

 

So no either you lie by a large margin or that player was so bad my granny could be behind that screen playing.

Don't think he was Immortal. Looked like Vengeance. He choked me, and it was channeled, and there was no Smash bomb.

 

Also, lol, no. Charge doesn't work against cover, and all of his skills that can knock the Sniper out of cover are either melee, or 10-meter range. At that level, I had a big knockback+long immobilize, a medium knockback from Ambush (easily followed by Leg Shot), a Smoke Grenade debuff that wrecks his accuracy, a 30-meter Flash Grenade and a melee stun (shank in the chest -Delibitate, I believe). Although, I used only Cover Pulse, Ambush, Leg Shot, Smoke bomb to deal with him. Flash and Delibitate were on cooldown from dealing with an OP-erative's ambush.

 

My Entrench was on cooldown, otherwise the fight would have been over even faster (he pushed me once and choked me once).

 

Also, not denying that he probably wasn't an amazing PvPer. He didn't break out of CC (could have been on cooldown), didn't fear me (CD, as well, possibly). My belief is - he just underestimated the level 20 opponent.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Helig