ZeusThunder Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I don't feel very strongly about the Illum PvP zone issues, but I do find it pretty humorous that Bioware didn't anticipate people in an MMO working cooperatively to achieve a common goal. I would like to try to help though, by telling you clearly what is happening now and what will happen after the patch. I can only speak from personal experience, but I think it's safe to assume other people are/will do this too. Currently (we are Imperial): 1) Guildmate logs on to Republic alt, finds Republic players in Illum, asks if they will trade caps with us in Illum. 2) Republic players agree, both our side and theirs meet at an Illum cap and trade back and forth until our quests are completed. After patch (we already have this planned): 1) Guildmate logs on to Republic alt, finds Republic players in Illum, asks if they will trade player kills with us in Illum 2) Republic players agree, both our side and theirs meet at an out of the way area of Illum. We will let them kill one our our players, rez the player, and repeat the process until their quests are completed. Then they will let our players kill one of them until our quests are completed. Why we do this: We work cooperatively because it is the most efficient way for both of us to get our objectives completed. What will stop us from doing this: A penalty for dying while in Illum would stop us from working cooperatively together. If when dying we lost valor and/or credits it would no longer make sense for us to trade player kills back and forth. Again, I don't feel very strongly about this issue but think I have a good solution to your problem and just wanted to get it out there. I actually think it would be very funny if Bioware's metrics just sees an even number of Republic to Imperial kills in the zone and thinks, "Alright we fixed it! People are PvP'ing now and are not working together!" This would make a good Southpark episode Edit: Bioware was actually on to something with Outlaw's Den with resource nodes and security chests; But then they removed them. Outlaw's Den was the only place where I engaged in world PvP. I did so because I didn't want people to take resource nodes from me, or get my Mercenary commendations. Edited January 13, 2012 by ZeusThunder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlyik Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And this is also a perfect example of why Free Market Capitalism, based on "perfect competition", always fails. It's simply more efficient to cooperate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olympic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Penalty for dying has been proven over and over to inhibit PvP. But I do agree with your overall premise. Developers always seem to miss the point when making a PvP zone. Killing playes IS the objective of PvP, we don't need artificial "objectives" to flip back and forth to create the environment. Just being there IS the environment. I'm not against having a few bases to attack and defend etc, but Ilum is silliness defined. The more developers try to figure out how to inspire the worse it gets. Remove the flippable objectives and give straight valor for killing people and let the fun begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pashgan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 PvP is all about dieing. If players will lose anything from world PvP - expect to see there no more than 5% of total player base at start and even less in few days. Because losing money/valor/items non-stop isn't the greatest motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I don't feel very strongly about the Illum PvP zone issues, but I do find it pretty humorous that Bioware didn't anticipate people in an MMO working cooperatively to achieve a common goal. I would like to try to help though, by telling you clearly what is happening now and what will happen after the patch. I can only speak from personal experience, but I think it's safe to assume other people are/will do this too. Currently (we are Imperial): 1) Guildmate logs on to Republic alt, finds Republic players in Illum, asks if they will trade caps with us in Illum. 2) Republic players agree, both our side and theirs meet at an Illum cap and trade back and forth until our quests are completed. After patch (we already have this planned): 1) Guildmate logs on to Republic alt, finds Republic players in Illum, asks if they will trade player kills with us in Illum 2) Republic players agree, both our side and theirs meet at an out of the way area of Illum. We will let them kill one our our players, rez the player, and repeat the process until their quests are completed. Then they will let our players kill one of them until our quests are completed. Why we do this: We work cooperatively because it is the most efficient way for both of us to get our objectives completed. What will stop us from doing this: A penalty for dying while in Illum would stop us from working cooperatively together. If when dying we lost valor and/or credits it would no longer make sense for us to trade player kills back and forth. Again, I don't feel very strongly about this issue but think I have a good solution to your problem and just wanted to get it out there. I actually think it would be very funny if Bioware's metrics just sees an even number of Republic to Imperial kills in the zone and thinks, "Alright we fixed it! People are PvP'ing now and are not working together!" This would make a good Southpark episode I have to point out the extreme silliness of this. Bioware created a planet where people are supposed to go with the goal of fighting each other. It's called Ilum. It is in no way Bioware's fault if the idiotic players who go there willingly chose not to fight each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olympic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And this is also a perfect example of why Free Market Capitalism, based on "perfect competition", always fails. It's simply more efficient to cooperate. Your analogy is misplaced. Ilum is more akin to a government controlled market such as Cuba than a free market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karandor Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Except for this sort of behavoir it is easier to ban people. Kill swapping has long been a bannable offence in MMOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erevu Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And this is also a perfect example of why Free Market Capitalism, based on "perfect competition", always fails. It's simply more efficient to cooperate. haha so off topic but sadly so true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I find it amusing that you actually need to log on an alt to coordinate this currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbathius Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) OP, Stop and ask yourself WHY you're doing it? For gear? OK, so you'll get geared. Then what? Never understood people like that, probably never will. EDIT: As a sidenote, I always felt win trading should be a bannable offense. Edited January 13, 2012 by Sabbathius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soazak Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) The real problem is people PvPing for gear progression, rather than for actual fun. They should ban any sort of cross realm trading, whether it's kills or caps. Edited January 13, 2012 by Soazak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardya Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) If my understanding is correct, the reason cooperating happened is because you needed to "flip" nodes. Imagine if this was the case in Civil War Alderan. The objectives have to be able to be met without needing the other side to do something. Imagine if there was a convoy that went from point A to Point B and empire had to defend and repub had to attack. Then it went the other way. You would never need the other side to do anything to get points. Yet the sooner you stop (or farther you get) the more points you get. Edited January 13, 2012 by richardya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suuke Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I have to point out the extreme silliness of this. Bioware created a planet where people are supposed to go with the goal of fighting each other. It's called Ilum. It is in no way Bioware's fault if the idiotic players who go there willingly chose not to fight each other. Exactly right - your asking for the developers to set some kind of parameter that controls the free will of the person on the other side of the monitor - not going to happen. While they are at it, let's ask them to develop a drug to cure stupid and kill two birds with one stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotsky_tor Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Will the repub people be so quick to agree when you're getting a huge bonus to your valor for your kills because of controlling nodes? Or would they rather try to take over the nodes themselves? I guess it depends on if you're doing Ilum only to complete the daily/weekly or if you're doing it for valour/fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaolinhorse Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I think if they made illum pvp clan based, instead of faction based and gave real rewards for capturing and holding points you would see a ton of pvp. They would actually be able to give worthwhile rewards that way. You can't really give a entire faction anything worth while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zandon Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Someone commented in another thread I can't find, but seemed like the only way to stop this. Make it like WG, on a timer, instanced, team that holds gets to run an instance that drops pvp gear till the next match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeusThunder Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 The real problem is people PvPing for gear progression, rather than for actual fun. They should ban any sort of cross realm trading, whether it's kills or caps. Well another issue is that there is nothing to do in the zone besides complete quests. After completing quests, there is no reason to be there really. Bioware was actually on to something with Outlaw's Den with resource nodes and security chests; But then they removed them. Outlaw's Den was the only place where I engaged in world PvP. I did so because I didn't want people to take resource nodes from me, or get my Mercenary commendations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samous Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And this is also a perfect example of why Free Market Capitalism, based on "perfect competition", always fails. It's simply more efficient to cooperate. The irony here, other then your being completely wrong, is you bought a game that based its success on the Free Market, and this game is succeeding because of said Free Market Capitalism. You know where you make a product that people consider worth their money, so they buy the product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursacrifice Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I have to point out the extreme silliness of this. Bioware created a planet where people are supposed to go with the goal of fighting each other. It's called Ilum. It is in no way Bioware's fault if the idiotic players who go there willingly chose not to fight each other. No, but it sort of Bioware's fault for making the Republic side far less appealing to a larger group of the community. If servers were split down the middle a little more I could see Ilum being incredibly fun and enjoyable. But in the current state of MOST servers it's not really feasible for players to get dailies done due to the sheer lack of opposing faction presence on the planet. *edit*: Force lightning is almost always going to be cooler looking then any light-side design equivalent to most players. But that doesn't detract from the sheer silliness that a lot of the Republic abilities have in how they work compared to Imperial "mirrors". On top of that, the clear opinion of *most* players is that the Imperial story lines are better and the armor is much better. I'm a little different in that I think the best looking pvp armor is the lvl 50 expertise-quality Sage armor. But otherwise, I agree that the Imperial armor is universally better on all other classes. Edited January 13, 2012 by oursacrifice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakedpotter Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Sweet so YOU are ruining the game pvp basically. This can be done in ANY pvp situation on ANY game ever. It is stupid. If you play a game just to gear grind, play the pve side of the game. Pathetic. Why not have the rep alt ask if the republic wants to meet up in a designated area where you can have a fair fight while taking objectives? Because you are coward easy moders I would guess. haha i wish devs were ballsy enough to just drop the perma ban hammer on anyone caught doing this instantly as U ruin the game not the devs. Penalty systems never work to correct these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olympic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 One of the best parts of Ilum is that you get chat spam every 5 seconds letting you know what is vulnerable, even hits the FPS a bit for that warm fuzzy feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlyik Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The irony here, other then your being completely wrong, is you bought a game that based its success on the Free Market, and this game is succeeding because of said Free Market Capitalism. You know where you make a product that people consider worth their money, so they buy the product. You have no idea what you're talking about. My comment was about the tendency (more like inevitability) of industries to collude because it is more efficient to cooperate than to compete. Capitalism is, ideologically, about competition. However, if you look at nearly every industry, including this one (Computer Entertainment), there is collusion among companies, either implicitly or explicitly (that is, at face, or behind the scenes). This is often done to enforce prices and to reduce competition. After all, the goal of any company in any market is to be the sole provider of a service - to monopolize. Once you've monopolized an industry, you control the services, the products, and the profit margins. Some industries are de-facto monopolies because of collusion. And, of course, there are various levels of monopolization. It isn't a process that occurs overnight, but often starts with collusion. Why else do you think all "AAA"-rated titles cost the same regardless of production costs? A **** game releases at the same $60 as every other game. If there was any real competition, there would be a variance in pricing. But no, you spend the same on every major title every time you purchase one, whether it's SC2 or SWTOR. I don't expect the average person to actually understand when they're getting swindled, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykomyke Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The problem with Ilum right now is that it *requires* a player interaction on a negative scale. I.E. In order for a Imperial player to complete his objectives he has to assault republic owned objectives. These objectives ONLY flip through player interaction. If say...they reset every so often IF no players had actively used the object in a set amount of time I could see it being better. A much better suggestion for this PvP planet would be to put up some sort of convoy mission that starts with player interaction (Quest start); alerts the entire PvP zone of the interaction; requires a constant imperial presence with the "convoy" from start to finish; and can be countered by the enemy team in some fashion. Let me elaborate on this in a better fashion. ---Begin Simulation In order to trigger the convoy, you have to go to the exact center of the map (Where Center Assault is currently located) in order to retrieve the coordinates of a lost shipment of Ilum Crystals. Upon interacting with the object you light up (like you do when blowing up walkers) for 10 seconds giving time for someone to interrupt you. Upon "looting" these coordinates you have a debuff of -60% speed and you have to bring it back to your forward assault (mid-north or mid-south currently) to turn the coordinates in. As a first tier counter; the other side can either A: Kill you and steal the "plans" (Similar to huttball) OR they can tactically destroy the republic resources at the forward base. This forces you to have to travel all the way back to the primary base (Far North, Far South) to turn the plans in. Once the plans are turned in, you then escort a convoy, back to the middle of the map (side of the mountains somewhere) to secure the crystals. In this time the other side has to destroy the entire convoy to prevent it from reaching its destination. ---End Simulation In this scenario, the players earn Valor for player kills, and get the defender buff as they do now. Interaction or area participation would directly reward quest turn ins and/or valor/commendations. Upon prevention/completion of the primary quest you would gain a zone wide "buff" that lasts for a few hours and a hefty valor/commendation reward Now you have PvP that requires interaction from players; still has quest objectives, but can be triggered at anytime and joined at anytime from any players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrestrial Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I think BW posted in an article that the zone was supposed to have timers but they had not been implemented in time for release...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amonre Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Penalty for dying has been proven over and over to inhibit PvP. But I do agree with your overall premise. Developers always seem to miss the point when making a PvP zone. Killing playes IS the objective of PvP, we don't need artificial "objectives" to flip back and forth to create the environment. Just being there IS the environment. I'm not against having a few bases to attack and defend etc, but Ilum is silliness defined. The more developers try to figure out how to inspire the worse it gets. Remove the flippable objectives and give straight valor for killing people and let the fun begin. To add to this, the only real way to "force" competitive PvPing (open world) is to make something both sides can't have at once. I.e., in DAoC you had keeps that offered bonuses. Bonuses only lasted as long as you held the keep, so people fought to keep it. In WoW, you had that one open world place that like every 2 hours you fought for control to be able to do one of the raids. People fought because they wanted to do the content and realized they had to win if they wanted to. Allowing both sides to complete their objectives simultaneously won't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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