In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[KiranK]

They've never given us a legitimate reason why we can't see everyone's DPS. God forbid I should actually want to help other players with lacking DPS. My own DPS is meaningless without a good number of other people to compare it too. So some people might get kicked from their PUGs for low DPS. News flash: that is going to happen with or without DPS meters. I don't need a legit reason to kick you from my op/flash point. If I am raid leader, I can kick you as I please. The whole "elitist" argument has no leg to stand on. Meters don't make people @ssholes. People are already @ssholes.

[Snoodmaster]

You do have objective criterion to measure each try. You can see how close you got. You can see what others are doing on the screen and who is dying from stupid mistakes. You can see who is, for example, failnig to dps the mind traps when they pop up. You can see that mind traps aren't going down fast enough if they're not. You can see whether his health is ticking down fast enough when he's vulnerable. There's tons of objective criterion that require you to pay attention, observe the game itself (instead of gluing your face to some number ticker) and immerse yourself in the boss attempt.

 

Well yeah, we can see that, but we can't see WHY that is happening. Unless you have someone whose job it is to only look at mind traps or only count every color of laser headed at the boss. I think we may have different of what dps meter and combat logs are. For me, having just a giant "DPS" number would be just as uninformative and useless as the current system. I'm envisioning a system that allows you to see when someone starts dpsing a target, when they stopped, how much damage they did, how much damage it did to them, how many resists, how many dodges, etc.

 

Here's the rub, man...

 

"What if the boss is dead because the BH had a lucky crit even though the sniper was using a suboptimal rotation?"

 

Then the boss is dead and it doesn't matter. For realz.

 

This may be where we differ. It matters because on the next fight, whether this boss or the next, the BH won't be lucky and we'll fail because the sniper hasn't improved. Luck is luck and can't be fixed, but things that CAN be improved should be. Otherwise you just keep grinding your face against the wall hoping for luck.

[Blotter]

A combat Log is a combat log...so if other games have successfully added combat logs in their game BW shouldn't because it aint there invention?

 

No, that's not what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that there can be a better way to implement combat logs than simply copying WoW. Taking the narrow view that "a combat log is a combat log" stifles the innovation and attempts to make things better for everybody that you yourself were arguing in favor of.

[Blotter]

They've never given us a legitimate reason why we can't see everyone's DPS. God forbid I should actually want to help other players with lacking DPS. My own DPS is meaningless without a good number of other people to compare it too. So some people might get kicked from their PUGs for low DPS. News flash: that is going to happen with or without DPS meters. I don't need a legit reason to kick you from my op/flash point. If I am raid leader, I can kick you as I please. The whole "elitist" argument has no leg to stand on. Meters don't make people @ssholes. People are already @ssholes.

 

They've given legitimate reasons...as have many many people on the forums. The fact that you simply dismiss those reasons doesn't make them illegitimate.

 

If nothing else, just the simple barebones fact that the issue is so contentious and results in a 100 page thread full of flames...that ALONE legitimizes BW's concerns about people being judgmental and that publicized dps meters will harm the community.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Blotter

[Drewser]

They've never given us a legitimate reason why we can't see everyone's DPS. God forbid I should actually want to help other players with lacking DPS. My own DPS is meaningless without a good number of other people to compare it too. So some people might get kicked from their PUGs for low DPS. News flash: that is going to happen with or without DPS meters. I don't need a legit reason to kick you from my op/flash point. If I am raid leader, I can kick you as I please. The whole "elitist" argument has no leg to stand on. Meters don't make people @ssholes. People are already @ssholes.

 

Sure they have, you simply don't agree with it.

 

I don't care either way but it is clear some players do.

[Terebor]

No, that's not what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that there can be a better way to implement combat logs than simply copying WoW. Taking the narrow view that "a combat log is a combat log" stifles the innovation and attempts to make things better for everybody that you yourself were arguing in favor of.

 

Dude thats exactly what i said before...take stuff that works and make it better...what is so hard to understand....i never said at any point to implement stuff in the exact same state as it is in other games...wether its wow, rift, aion, daoc etc. And a combat log is and always will be a combat log...its that simple. The only difference between combat logs are the features and facettes...but i know...thats a lot to think about and REAAAALLLLY hard to understand

[Matte_Black]

The problem with that solution is threefold.

 

(1) People will lie.

Even if 15 out of the 16 (or 7/8) people on your NM Ops team are honest, forthright people, having that 16th person lie about his dps throws the whole system out of whack. Generally, this isn't an issue in guilds because after the first couple of lies the guy gets booted, but it takes time and extra effort to figure out the lies.

 

(2) You can't fix what already happened.

Having to upload logs after the fight means that you will be doing the analysis post-fight rather than in the middle of the action. Which means that if someone is screwing up and causing a wipe, you can't fix it right then and prevent the wipe, but instead have to do a post-mortem afterward.

 

(3) It creates more delay.

I've working with out of combat log parsing before. It just takes more time to upload and analyze than looking at a screen in game.

 

That said, to forestall any replies about how those aren't "real issues", I personally find the planned 'solution' to be an agreeable compromise. I'm just pointing out that it does have problems from the side of people wanting more data.

 

So just draw your line based on whether they want to share with you past data as their resume or not. If they are being evasive or their build/gear seem questionable, you can still have that conversation and say you want to work with someone else without a number to x decimal places. Yes, the players can lie so but, those numbers were guilty of misleading about as much.

[Snoodmaster]

When it comes to guilds or teams, it is perfectly reasonable to say "hey, yuo want to run this with us, yuo have to share your data log after so we can parse the data on that 3rd party website." Problem of lying entirely, 100% solved. It's voluntary. Run with us and particiapate according to guild rules and share or don't. Period.

 

I wish. People, because they are entitled, selfish, or lazy will put up fake logs or logs from a single fight where they had some uberbuff that spiked their dps. Why? Because the same idiot who feels that "4/5 rakata" means "I have the 3 daily rakata pieces and a crafted rakata belt with the rest of my gear in centurion" has utterly no qualms about bold-faced lies to get into content that he wouldn't have a shot at otherwise.

 

Srsly, I've seen a guy do this. He actually zoned in before someone inspected him. Sure, he didn't NEED 4/5 rakata to do the HM FP we were running, but the fact that he felt he needed to lie about it says volumes.

[crimsonsglory]

Tools don't kill communities, players do.

 

Players that use Recount to stir the pot are just going to use something else if Recount isn't available.

 

If you don't have access to a damage meter, you have no idea how good, or bad, you're performing. All you have at that point is your gut. Heck, without meters, you have no clue which specs are viable DPS specs or not. That gets real fun when you hit an enrage timer and have no clue who the weak link is -- or even whether it's an issue with the spec or the player.

 

 

Maybe you don't raid and don't have to worry about this, but meters are one of the most important tools a raid leader has access to. Nobody enjoys wiping 40 times in a night without progress, and if you can't access the tools necessary to identify what the problem is, that's exactly where you'll be.

 

 

Did the tank die because he didn't get heals, or did he die because he didn't get away from a one-shot mechanic? Who's dropping the ball on dispels? Was a healer afk for the fight?

 

 

Meters are more than just DPS numbers. They track everything. They can tell you in an instant what went wrong. If your ego can't handle someone linking a meter, perhaps you need to spend some time developing a thicker skin rather than argue that tools should be taken from the hands of people who need them.

 

To those strongly oppose to having combat logs - you know what kind of caliber player you are.

[Korrigan]

Very nice. I hope it will remains "self only".

[Terebor]

Tools don't kill communities, players do.

 

Players that use Recount to stir the pot are just going to use something else if Recount isn't available.

 

If you don't have access to a damage meter, you have no idea how good, or bad, you're performing. All you have at that point is your gut. Heck, without meters, you have no clue which specs are viable DPS specs or not. That gets real fun when you hit an enrage timer and have no clue who the weak link is -- or even whether it's an issue with the spec or the player.

 

 

Maybe you don't raid and don't have to worry about this, but meters are one of the most important tools a raid leader has access to. Nobody enjoys wiping 40 times in a night without progress, and if you can't access the tools necessary to identify what the problem is, that's exactly where you'll be.

 

 

Did the tank die because he didn't get heals, or did he die because he didn't get away from a one-shot mechanic? Who's dropping the ball on dispels? Was a healer afk for the fight?

 

 

Meters are more than just DPS numbers. They track everything. They can tell you in an instant what went wrong. If your ego can't handle someone linking a meter, perhaps you need to spend some time developing a thicker skin rather than argue that tools should be taken from the hands of people who need them.

 

To those strongly oppose to having combat logs - you know what kind of caliber player you are.

 

/sign no additional comments necessary

[Snoodmaster]

So just draw your line based on whether they want to share with you past data as their resume or not. If they are being evasive or their build/gear seem questionable, you can still have that conversation and say you want to work with someone else without a number to x decimal places. Yes, the players can lie so but, those numbers were guilty of misleading about as much.

 

I've never found combat logs to be particularly misleading. Sure, if someone is an idiot, they'll read into it more than it says, but those are idiots. Everyone else understands the concept of margin of error.

 

What IS problematic is someone arguing strenously that alacrity is a great stat for snipers. Based on gut feeling. Because without a valid measure to say, "no, it's isn't and if you keep pulling 30% less dps than everyone else because of your unwillingness to improve, we will be forced to get someone else for our hardmode and progressions runs" you can't convince him otherwise. And if you do replace him because you know better based on your own gut feeling then you might be wrong. And others in the guild will be unhappy.

The same for if he is consistently not shooting mindtraps. When you can post right there in real time his 0 damage on the mindtrap, it's really, really hard for him to lie and say that he did. Otherwise he'll lie and it'll look like you are playing favorites.

[Slaggo]

Good no recount for group. And you know personal DPS. Now everyone wins. No loud mouth in raid shouting everyone's number's and if you ask me mine. I'll lie.

 

 

^ Totally agreed. I hated when a ***** would list everyone's DPS during a run and badmouth the player doing the lowest damage.

 

GOD, that was so frickin' annoying.

[Matte_Black]

Tools don't kill communities, players do.

 

Players that use Recount to stir the pot are just going to use something else if Recount isn't available.

 

If you don't have access to a damage meter, you have no idea how good, or bad, you're performing. All you have at that point is your gut. Heck, without meters, you have no clue which specs are viable DPS specs or not. That gets real fun when you hit an enrage timer and have no clue who the weak link is -- or even whether it's an issue with the spec or the player.

 

 

Maybe you don't raid and don't have to worry about this, but meters are one of the most important tools a raid leader has access to. Nobody enjoys wiping 40 times in a night without progress, and if you can't access the tools necessary to identify what the problem is, that's exactly where you'll be.

 

 

Did the tank die because he didn't get heals, or did he die because he didn't get away from a one-shot mechanic? Who's dropping the ball on dispels? Was a healer afk for the fight?

 

 

Meters are more than just DPS numbers. They track everything. They can tell you in an instant what went wrong. If your ego can't handle someone linking a meter, perhaps you need to spend some time developing a thicker skin rather than argue that tools should be taken from the hands of people who need them.

 

To those strongly oppose to having combat logs - you know what kind of caliber player you are.

 

If you listen to the devs talk about playing the game, you don't hear them talking about breaking everything down to numbers as part of the intended play experience. They talk about watching the seen for visible effect as opposed to burying your nose in your ability tray, health bars and buff/debuff/DOT icons. Similarly, we have fully acted cutscenes instead of just scrolling text. They sem to prefer to engage the player emotionally instead of just strategically. Clearly, many players want or have grown accustomed to detailed statistics but, this is a style argument that has gone in roleplaying games since before they were video games. This game happens to be slanted more toward that feel over thought end of the scale than most. A decision I applaud.

[KiranK]

^ Totally agreed. I hated when a ***** would list everyone's DPS during a run and badmouth the player doing the lowest damage.

 

GOD, that was so frickin' annoying.

 

You're under the impression I need a meter to bad mouth you and throw you out of my raid. I don't.

[Matte_Black]

I've never found combat logs to be particularly misleading. Sure, if someone is an idiot, they'll read into it more than it says, but those are idiots. Everyone else understands the concept of margin of error.

 

And compared to those that aim at false targets based on just one number or read too much into them, how many are going to lie successfully? I'll bet it will be pretty comparable.

[Blotter]

Tools don't kill communities, players do.

 

Players that use Recount to stir the pot are just going to use something else if Recount isn't available.

 

If you don't have access to a damage meter, you have no idea how good, or bad, you're performing. All you have at that point is your gut. Heck, without meters, you have no clue which specs are viable DPS specs or not. That gets real fun when you hit an enrage timer and have no clue who the weak link is -- or even whether it's an issue with the spec or the player.

 

But you will have access to them to see how YOU are doing. If you don't trust your teamates to self-reoprt on Vent during a raid how they're numbers look or to not somehow hack their combat log data before putting it on the 3rd party website to be compiled with yours, then I'm sorry you have crappy guild/teammates.

 

Maybe you don't raid and don't have to worry about this, but meters are one of the most important tools a raid leader has access to. Nobody enjoys wiping 40 times in a night without progress, and if you can't access the tools necessary to identify what the problem is, that's exactly where you'll be.

 

I raid plenty and, magically, don't have to worry about this.

 

Did the tank die because he didn't get heals, or did he die because he didn't get away from a one-shot mechanic? Who's dropping the ball on dispels? Was a healer afk for the fight?

 

He can tell you that immediately during the raid based on what is in his personal combat log. Don't trust him?

 

Meters are more than just DPS numbers. They track everything. They can tell you in an instant what went wrong. If your ego can't handle someone linking a meter, perhaps you need to spend some time developing a thicker skin rather than argue that tools should be taken from the hands of people who need them.

 

Tools != crutches.

 

To those strongly oppose to having combat logs - you know what kind of caliber player you are.

 

Indeed. I'm pretty darn good and know it, so I don't need the stupid crutch in the first place.

 

 

.....

[Bodhi_]

If people want to carry on this thread as an opinion piece, I welcome it because it gives me something to read at work.

 

However, argueing over what will and will not be is a waste of time, because it has been stated. The exact text was pasted earlier in this thread.

 

1. They are going to add a window into the combat log, in game, which will be filtered showing combat pertaining to 'your' character. What you hit and missed, and what hit and missed you, I would assume. A pretty basic combatlog filter.

 

2. This filtered combat log, the in-game window, has to be derived from a larger combat log. This full combat log is going to be stored on your local computer, and it can be viewed. This full combat log is going to capure ALL relevent data surrounding your character. This means your actions, as well as the actions of those around you, friendly and enemy, will be captured.

 

That is it. Those are the facts. Continue discussing opinions if you want, but these facts cannot be argued against because they are the direct statements from the developers.

[Blotter]

You're under the impression I need a meter to bad mouth you and throw you out of my raid. I don't.

 

And you're under the mistaken impression that we'd want to raid with your smug, arrogant self in the first place.

[KiranK]

And you're under the mistaken impression that we'd want to raid with your smug, arrogant self in the first place.

 

Now you see the real problem. The combat log was never the issue. The people who are @ssholes are the real issue, and that's a problem you can't solve. Taking away DPS meters and combat logs doesn't solve anything. You can't change people. Take away one avenue for them to vent their rage and they'll just create another. Give the rest of us full group combat logs so we can use them legitimately.

[Tarka]

With the way it was pitched at the Summit, it sounds like the "combat log" is ONLY viewable outside of the game.

 

Which, if true, would be a boneheaded move in my opinion.

[Drewser]

If people want to carry on this thread as an opinion piece, I welcome it because it gives me something to read at work.

 

However, argueing over what will and will not be is a waste of time, because it has been stated. The exact text was pasted earlier in this thread.

 

1. They are going to add a window into the combat log, in game, which will be filtered showing combat pertaining to 'your' character. What you hit and missed, and what hit and missed you, I would assume. A pretty basic combatlog filter.

 

2. This filtered combat log, the in-game window, has to be derived from a larger combat log. This full combat log is going to be stored on your local computer, and it can be viewed. This full combat log is going to capure ALL relevent data surrounding your character. This means your actions, as well as the actions of those around you, friendly and enemy, will be captured.

 

That is it. Those are the facts. Continue discussing opinions if you want, but these facts cannot be argued against because they are the direct statements from the developers.

 

Point 2 - has not been stated as fact. No where did they state it would capture all relevant data surrounding you. Please link to it if you have a quote from Bioware.

[Blotter]

Now you see the real problem. The combat log was never the issue. The people who are @ssholes are the real issue, and that's a problem you can't solve. Taking away DPS meters and combat logs doesn't solve anything. You can't change people. Take away one avenue for them to vent their rage and they'll just create another. Give the rest of us full group combat logs so we can use them legitimately.

 

That's not true, really. The meters provide a focal point giving excuse to that kind of behavior such that people who otherwise wouldn't behave like a jerk or be annoying with it end up doing so. Yes, some peopel are going to be jerks no matter what. A lot less people will be jerks without publicized meters givng them an excuse and fodder for it.

 

As for using them legitimately...there's a lot of people and a lto of good arguments that the only legitimate use of them is outside the game, rather than in real time. Perhaps you don't agree witht that or simply dismiss it because you prefer otherwise, but BW is trying to strike a balance to please more people rather than just some. You'll have yuor data. You'll have yuor groups data if they share. What you won't have is my data if I don't like or trust you.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Blotter

[KiranK]

That's not true, really. The meters provide a focal point giving excuse to that kind of behavior such that people who otherwise wouldn't behave like a jerk or be annoying with it end up doing so. Yes, some peopel are going to be jerks no matter what. A lot less people will be jerks without publicized meters givng them an excuse and fodder for it.

 

A focal point is a symptom, not a problem. Nerfing symptoms doesn't solve anything. You take away one focal point and another will appear. This I can promise you. Say I force everyone to show me their DPS logs at the end of each fight. You try to outsmart me and lie. I call you out for lying. Do I actually know if you're lying? No. Do I need to actually know if you're lying? No. I can call you out for lying even when you're telling the truth. The simple fact that the possibility exists is enough. You refuse to show me your DPS log? I throw you out. You just solved nothing. For every way you try to get around me being a stickler for DPS meters, I find a way reinforce it. People don't change. Some of us actually make legitimate use of DPS meters without being jerks. Let us do it. DPS meters don't make jerks. Jerks are already jerks.

[Muskaan]

That's not true, really. The meters provide a focal point giving excuse to that kind of behavior such that people who otherwise wouldn't behave like a jerk or be annoying with it end up doing so. Yes, some peopel are going to be jerks no matter what. A lot less people will be jerks without publicized meters givng them an excuse and fodder for it.

 

The meter is also the best tool to actually proving the jerk wrong. As a healer, I can't count the number of times I have linked the death logs of DPS pointing out how it was not a "healer's mistake" and how they stood in the fire and burnt to death.