In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Setanian]

Damn. You experience in WoW must have been traumatic. Sounds like a lot of people used meters against you. I really wonder why.

 

You should wonder about learning to play without being told how. Then you can come back to me.

 

I have a solution for you. STOP TRYING TO RAID WITH PUGS. They obviously don't like you man. People don't pay $15 a month to play with people they don't want to play with. Just find a guild that will be nice to you. It's as simple as that.

 

Why are you shouting? Are you unable to converse on a simple forums without having an anxiety attack?

 

Don't worry you won't be paying to play with me. I'm a little above the face rolling game.

 

And I didn't even need to use caps! Go Me

Edited January 13, 2012 by Setanian

[Freyar]

Meters turns the game into a min/max thing rather than y'know.. learning how to deal with it. It's like researching trees in Skyrim before even considering what you'll focus on. Mathematics is neat and all, but they're so overdone for MMOs that they make 'em no fun anymore.

[Felioats]

I'm not looking forward to DPSers getting "meter tunnel vision," but I guess it's something we'll have to live with.

[Reecelol]

I'm not looking forward to DPSers getting "meter tunnel vision," but I guess it's something we'll have to live with.

 

so youre looking forward to dps'ers just being terrible?

[Chosenxeno]

Why do you feel you have the monopoly on being allowed to troll everyone you don't agree with, with blatant insults and references to stupid sites and then claim them as fact.

 

The facts are these;

 

The only reason you actually need parsers is because WoW and it's derivatives insist on creating raids (with a small r) containing a boss mob that kills people arbitrarily if it enrages. This fosters a requirement for all dps to be at their max for the entire encounter.

 

This in turn fosters elitism. We have seen this already in this thread; "If you're joining my group you'll submit a combat log to my site"

 

Oh! really!!?? You got the wrong chap mate. I play a game not a p*ssing contest. I've probably played MMOs longer than 80% of the people here. If you think I am going to stoop to kiddie mode to submit anything to your site, you have yet to mature into adult mode.

 

Fact, those people not subscribing to add-ons and combat logs does not equal "bad". That you might think so, is just another juvenile attempt to play Mr. Internet Anonymous.

 

Fact, I don't care whether you need logs to ensure everyone is pumping out the same dps with the same face rolling rotation with the same spec. Faceroll your heart out. What I do care about is the community on the game. You'll get your parsers, you cried long and hard for care bear raiding and you shall have it. The problem is, that will trickle all the way down to the casuals looking to do a class quest and then be asked to (sorry this makes me laugh) submit a log for perusal by some kid who thinks he's Captain Raider Extraordinaire.

 

Fact: WoW had better graphics than EQ1. It had many built in add-ons that EQ never had and never will have. It had no run for your corpse timesink and it had no EQ1 type grinding. It attracted all the care bears and even more as it and technology allowed for a younger and younger audience. Does that make it better ? Absolutely Not.

 

Fact: Wow attracts kids by the droves. It's care-bear in absolutely every way. PvE, Raiding, crafting, everything. That is why it is so popular. Blizzard recognized that early on and reaped the benefits by making it easier and easier.

 

Fact: After parsers we had GearScore. Everyime you needed a group or more, you were examined for a gearscore and some kiddie who couldn't even talk properly without a 'z' on the end of everything told you were inferior. When you became eligible, it turns out all those kiddie gearscore peeps were just face rolling the keyboard and had absolutely no idea what to do if something went wrong but blame anyone but themselves.

 

Fact: WoW and meters fostered the notion of cookie cutter class specs. By having the infinite details of every encounter, people were able to code up lists that everyone else what dps was required and to attain that level of dps you required a certain rotation of certain abilities only available by selecting a given spec for your class.

 

Fact: WoW and the add-ons created a game that was played by millions of players who all played the flavor of the month spec and rotation. Added to that was the ability to be told by the game what key or ability to press next. Then added to that was the ability to be told when to move during an encounter.

 

Fact: These meters and their ilk, fostered a player who was no more than an dumb automaton rolling the instructions of someone else who had gleaned all the numbers and macro'd it.

 

Fact: Now we are in a situation whereby every MMO must have these meters and add-ons so the players will not feel inferior and (laughing again) 'bad' because they were never really able to play without the game or it's add-ons telling them what to do.

 

 

 

You guys can have your meters and your helpers and add-ons, I will rest easy knowing that at least for a special moment in my life, I was actually able to play my class without them.

 

I'll rest easy knowing that what we're really seeing is the dawn of the player paying a subscription to a game which they play by following the instructions on the packet.

 

I never really understood why people called others "care bear" in forums. Now, I see the light. Hallelujah !

 

I'm sorry I missed this. I never blatantly insulted anyone or I would be banned. Everything I said was fact.

 

The Obvious focus of you and the "We don't want anything that WOW has mentality" is to build a new "Time Sinkers Only" style of MMORPG.

 

You want this game to be EQ even though it's Niche. I argued that in a genre where the goal is to be "Massive" WOW's more accessible model makes sense. Rift took the more accessible approach too. It's doing pretty well. I was on those forums yesterday. The Days of EQ/Vanilla WOW are gone. WOW's Growth after abandoning their "Time Sinkers Only" Raid Model proves what makes sense.

 

I'm pretty sure you are the one that was calling people: Bads, Lazy, People that can't play, Ctutch Users ect.

 

The things that I highlighted would only be said by an Elitist. Why do you guys act so superior? You come from a game that was Cumbersome not Challenging. People didn't leave EQ for WOW because it was care bear. They left because it was a masochistic and Cumbersome game. They left because WOW had "Superior Graphics" as you stated. What this adds up too is they left to play a better game and yet you refuse to see that.

 

I already said this earlier. If EQ is so great then, why in a time where some people are "bored with WOW" do people not view EQ ,or it's sequels, as an option for visiting? Masochistic and Cumbersome does not = fun. Accessible = better. That's why people chose to Visit Rift and SW:TOR.

 

I don't want another WOW. I want the game to be "Massive". It can't be massive if it's modeled after a barely alive Relic such s EQ. It needs to be modeled after what's clearly a more successful model. Accessibility.

 

I guarantee when EQ Next finally comes it will be a lot close to WOW than EQ1.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Setee]

couldent your combat performance mean the damage you take too since that would be an account of how you perform with your defense. if thats how they see it maybe it is both logs and he was talking about them in conjunction.

[Shillen]

I find it funny all the anti-WoW people drift from MMO to MMO and then fight against any improvement to the game that would make it more like WoW.

 

Then no one except those people play it because it doesn't have any of the convenience features a modern MMO should have.

 

Then the company realizes people are leaving in droves and starts adding these features to staunch the wound.

 

But it's too late, the game is mostly dead. Then the people who didn't want the game to be anything like WoW leave because it's now more like WoW and they go ruin the next MMO.

 

All the while they blame the death of the game on the WoW people.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Shillen

[DarrkLore]

I think you are reading to much into that one word. I think he just used it as it was a more convenient way to say it rather than "get more detailed data on the combat performance of characters in game."

 

It's possible. He could've meant your in the plural sense. He didn't say your own combat performance...

 

Who knows, either way it's good news to me.

[Excedrin]

I find it funny all the anti-WoW people drift from MMO to MMO and then fight against any improvement to the game that would make it more like WoW.

 

Then no one except those people play it because it doesn't have any of the convenience features a modern MMO should have.

 

Then the company realizes people are leaving in droves and starts adding these features to staunch the wound.

 

But it's too late, the game is mostly dead. Then the people who didn't want the game to be anything like WoW leave because it's now more like WoW and they go ruin the next MMO.

 

All the while they blame the death of the game on the WoW people.

 

You've effectively summed up one of the reasons modern MMOs fail so hard with such frequency.

[Aastarius]

Funny part is they may just give people a personal dps/healing type meter without any actual combat log. Many will be happy, many will not and wonder how long that would take before Guild Leaders start asking people to submit screen shots ...

 

 

Personally, I like the idea of simple personal meters enabling people to switch their gear / abilities around a bit and seeing the results.

[Aastarius]

I find it funny all the anti-WoW people drift from MMO to MMO and then fight against any improvement to the game that would make it more like WoW.

 

Then no one except those people play it because it doesn't have any of the convenience features a modern MMO should have.

 

Then the company realizes people are leaving in droves and starts adding these features to staunch the wound.

 

But it's too late, the game is mostly dead. Then the people who didn't want the game to be anything like WoW leave because it's now more like WoW and they go ruin the next MMO.

 

All the while they blame the death of the game on the WoW people.

 

Funny the number of WoW players that drift around trying to find a different game and yet the first thing they do is complain the new game does not have the features the "other" game did!

 

Also amusing how people seem to struggle with the concept that trying to play a new game the same way as you did an old one will rarely lead to the anticipated happiness they expected.

[Shillen]

Funny the number of WoW players that drift around trying to find a different game and yet the first thing they do is complain the new game does not have the features the "other" game did!

 

Also amusing how people seem to struggle with the concept that trying to play a new game the same way as you did an old one will rarely lead to the anticipated happiness they expected.

 

Funny how my argument is supported by failed games and yours is disproved by failed games.

[Whash]

I play healers. Probably 90%+ of my combat log use in "the other game" is to find out how my people died during a raid so I can fix it. Keeping me from doing that in deference to people who are determined to keep themselves ignorant of how well they're playing, is ********.

[SlyJeff]

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean the logs are personal only, though if they were I'd be fine with it. It means less tools for pugs to be successfult, but on content where dps matters, I've always been a fan of guild runs anyway. And guilds doing content where dps matters will make you submit your personal logs, so it wouldn't make much of a difference there.

[vekkth]

ok ill just make you wait 20 mins while i photoshop it, or simply refuse to group with you and move on looking for another group, either way its a win to me

 

and it is a good riddance then. combat logs are essential for competitive gaming. competition produces leaders, and masses follow the leaders. huge part of wow success was PR machine around top guilds progress, everyone was monitoring wowprogress.com. every kid playing football at his backyard imagine himself as Beckham. to build up myth, you need heroes. swtor will be always at sims level if they not care for hardcore players, and i doubt it very much they want it.

[hushia]

and it is a good riddance then. combat logs are essential for competitive gaming. competition produces leaders, and masses follow the leaders. huge part of wow success was PR machine around top guilds progress, everyone was monitoring wowprogress.com. every kid playing football at his backyard imagine himself as Beckham. to build up myth, you need heroes. swtor will be always at sims level if they not care for hardcore players, and i doubt it very much they want it.

 

What a nonsense. I doubt the majority of the wow-population started playing wow because they aspired to become a 'top-player' in a 'top guild'.

 

And competition produces leaders? Really?.. I could as well say competition produces elitist jerks (pun intended)

 

On a sidenote: not wanting a recount like tool does not automatically mean you're a bad player with low dps. The arguments are more about the spirit of the game than about someone's skill playing it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by hushia

[vekkth]

What a nonsense. I doubt the majority of the wow-population started playing wow because they aspired to become a 'top-player' in a 'top guild'.

 

And competition produces leaders? Really?.. I could as well say competition produces elitist jerks (pun intended)

 

On a sidenote: not wanting a recount like tool does not automatically mean you're a bad player with low dps. It's more about the spirit of the game than about someone's skill playing it.

 

you doubt? ask 10 yo about football, you will understand what i am saying. i have a nephew who was 15 at that point, he didnt even have money to play official wow but he knew i was raider in Fixed (top 3 russian guild) and his friends new, and they gave mad props. i am not bragging btw, even a little, its just how youth works. and a lot of wow players are youngsters.

 

if you do not understand the power of myth you will not understand the success.

 

 

edit

of course it is not like that - using a dps meter is a personal thing, player shouldnt be judged upon that. but there is a connection, it is obvious. it is also a difference between not wanting to use it personally or not wanting it in game. there was a huge discussions on jk/sw forums years ago, when some people were advocating ability to play a damage dealer spec with one lightsaber. there were dozens of those who were drooling over their keyboards arguing that it shouldnt be like that, only sentinel should be dps, guardians should be only tanking. people kept asking them why they are against? its about having options, not about taking them. you cant imagine level of stupidity and stubborness in those threads, luckily devs heard us and now we have a single lightsaber melee dps option for all those fans of classic movies jedi archetype.

having a combat log/dps meter is the same. its giving the option, not taking it. people will be judged no matter what, by gear, by looks, by w/e, they WILL be judged. having a dps meter just broads the list. again, worse type of judgement is based upon gear, its a nightmare when you have to actually inspect a person considering him as a candidate, take him in only to realize he is a bad player.

 

effort wasted.

Edited January 14, 2012 by vekkth

[hushia]

you doubt? ask 10 yo about football, you will understand what i am saying. i have a nephew who was 15 at that point, he didnt even have money to play official wow but he knew i was raider in Fixed (top 3 russian guild) and his friends new, and they gave mad props. i am not bragging btw, even a little, its just how youth works. and a lot of wow players are youngsters.

 

if you do not understand the power of myth you will not understand the success.

 

So.. where in my post did I mention football?

 

I know like 20 people who started playing wow for the social aspect of the game, not the competitive aspect. So your nephew's story might be nice, but doesn't say anything about the majority of people.

 

And omg.. if that's the reason most players join wow now, it explains why I started to hate the community lately.. All this testosteron not tempered by any maturity yet.. let's keep them in wow and enjoy a more tempered spirit in this game.

Edited January 14, 2012 by hushia

[vekkth]

So.. where in my post did I mention football?

 

I know like 20 people who started playing wow for the social aspect of the game, not the competitive aspect. So your nephew's story might be nice, but doesn't say anything about the majority of people.

 

i did, in my first post. do you know the word "analogy"? i also wrote a huge edit. nor like it matters, i doubt you will understand. no offense.

[hushia]

i did, in my first post. do you know the word "analogy"? i also wrote a huge edit. nor like it matters, i doubt you will understand. no offense.

 

I understand what you say, I just don't agree with it. And I don't feel the need to offend you because you have a different opinion.

 

/edit

Ah I see, you misunderstood me. I meant to say that I can see that happening in football, but that I was talking about Wow and that in Wow I don't see that football analogy the way you described it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by hushia

[Rayaleith]

Why do you feel you have the monopoly on being allowed to troll everyone you don't agree with, with blatant insults and references to stupid sites and then claim them as fact.

 

The facts are these;

 

The only reason you actually need parsers is because WoW and it's derivatives insist on creating raids (with a small r) containing a boss mob that kills people arbitrarily if it enrages. This fosters a requirement for all dps to be at their max for the entire encounter.

 

This in turn fosters elitism. We have seen this already in this thread; "If you're joining my group you'll submit a combat log to my site"

 

Oh! really!!?? You got the wrong chap mate. I play a game not a p*ssing contest. I've probably played MMOs longer than 80% of the people here. If you think I am going to stoop to kiddie mode to submit anything to your site, you have yet to mature into adult mode.

 

Fact, those people not subscribing to add-ons and combat logs does not equal "bad". That you might think so, is just another juvenile attempt to play Mr. Internet Anonymous.

 

Fact, I don't care whether you need logs to ensure everyone is pumping out the same dps with the same face rolling rotation with the same spec. Faceroll your heart out. What I do care about is the community on the game. You'll get your parsers, you cried long and hard for care bear raiding and you shall have it. The problem is, that will trickle all the way down to the casuals looking to do a class quest and then be asked to (sorry this makes me laugh) submit a log for perusal by some kid who thinks he's Captain Raider Extraordinaire.

 

Fact: WoW had better graphics than EQ1. It had many built in add-ons that EQ never had and never will have. It had no run for your corpse timesink and it had no EQ1 type grinding. It attracted all the care bears and even more as it and technology allowed for a younger and younger audience. Does that make it better ? Absolutely Not.

 

Fact: Wow attracts kids by the droves. It's care-bear in absolutely every way. PvE, Raiding, crafting, everything. That is why it is so popular. Blizzard recognized that early on and reaped the benefits by making it easier and easier.

 

Fact: After parsers we had GearScore. Everyime you needed a group or more, you were examined for a gearscore and some kiddie who couldn't even talk properly without a 'z' on the end of everything told you were inferior. When you became eligible, it turns out all those kiddie gearscore peeps were just face rolling the keyboard and had absolutely no idea what to do if something went wrong but blame anyone but themselves.

 

Fact: WoW and meters fostered the notion of cookie cutter class specs. By having the infinite details of every encounter, people were able to code up lists that everyone else what dps was required and to attain that level of dps you required a certain rotation of certain abilities only available by selecting a given spec for your class.

 

Fact: WoW and the add-ons created a game that was played by millions of players who all played the flavor of the month spec and rotation. Added to that was the ability to be told by the game what key or ability to press next. Then added to that was the ability to be told when to move during an encounter.

 

Fact: These meters and their ilk, fostered a player who was no more than an dumb automaton rolling the instructions of someone else who had gleaned all the numbers and macro'd it.

 

Fact: Now we are in a situation whereby every MMO must have these meters and add-ons so the players will not feel inferior and (laughing again) 'bad' because they were never really able to play without the game or it's add-ons telling them what to do.

 

 

 

You guys can have your meters and your helpers and add-ons, I will rest easy knowing that at least for a special moment in my life, I was actually able to play my class without them.

 

I'll rest easy knowing that what we're really seeing is the dawn of the player paying a subscription to a game which they play by following the instructions on the packet.

 

I never really understood why people called others "care bear" in forums. Now, I see the light. Hallelujah !

 

 

Man, here is someone that obviously failed to do respectable dps to an easy game as wow. Someone that says as FACT that wow attracts kids! I hope you realize how wrong this is...

 

After that, some "kids" rejected you from trying to enter an instance with subpar gear and let others carry you. One can say to this FACT: Setanian tried repeatedly to enter an instance with low gear and wanted others to carry him and get some free loot.

 

So with your other "facts", you suggest that this information should be hidden from players. Well that would suit BW good since they would not do anything for class balance as "feeling that xxx dps is low" is not serious argument, while "I counted xxx damage in xx time with that spec" is true.

 

Once more you are NOT required to read elitistjerks or any similar site that "tells you how to spec and how to play". BUT you have to allow others that want a smooth raid/instance run to have it. And if you are not capable to dps properly, then find people that think likewise. People that do not do good dps. Easy as that.

 

Why do you want everything to play according to your style? no everyone likes to carry you.

[vekkth]

I understand what you say, I just don't agree with it. And I don't feel the need to offend you because you have a different opinion.

 

/edit

Ah I see, you misunderstood me. I meant to say that I can see that happening in football, but that I was talking about Wow and that in Wow I don't see that football analogy the way you described it.

 

i think the tendency is always the same, tennis or tetris, doesnt matter and for wow, it is a myth, a huge modern myth with ones classic traits. star wars itself is a myth even bigger, but swtor is not yet. creating heroes is very important part of the myth. competition is the core part of it. thats all i was trying to say, in short.

[vekkth]

Why do you feel you have the monopoly on being allowed to troll everyone you don't agree with, with blatant insults and references to stupid sites and then claim them as fact.

 

The facts are these;

 

The only reason you actually need parsers is because WoW and it's derivatives insist on creating raids (with a small r) containing a boss mob that kills people arbitrarily if it enrages. This fosters a requirement for all dps to be at their max for the entire encounter.

 

This in turn fosters elitism. We have seen this already in this thread; "If you're joining my group you'll submit a combat log to my site"

 

Oh! really!!?? You got the wrong chap mate. I play a game not a p*ssing contest. I've probably played MMOs longer than 80% of the people here. If you think I am going to stoop to kiddie mode to submit anything to your site, you have yet to mature into adult mode.

 

Fact, those people not subscribing to add-ons and combat logs does not equal "bad". That you might think so, is just another juvenile attempt to play Mr. Internet Anonymous.

 

Fact, I don't care whether you need logs to ensure everyone is pumping out the same dps with the same face rolling rotation with the same spec. Faceroll your heart out. What I do care about is the community on the game. You'll get your parsers, you cried long and hard for care bear raiding and you shall have it. The problem is, that will trickle all the way down to the casuals looking to do a class quest and then be asked to (sorry this makes me laugh) submit a log for perusal by some kid who thinks he's Captain Raider Extraordinaire.

 

Fact: WoW had better graphics than EQ1. It had many built in add-ons that EQ never had and never will have. It had no run for your corpse timesink and it had no EQ1 type grinding. It attracted all the care bears and even more as it and technology allowed for a younger and younger audience. Does that make it better ? Absolutely Not.

 

Fact: Wow attracts kids by the droves. It's care-bear in absolutely every way. PvE, Raiding, crafting, everything. That is why it is so popular. Blizzard recognized that early on and reaped the benefits by making it easier and easier.

 

Fact: After parsers we had GearScore. Everyime you needed a group or more, you were examined for a gearscore and some kiddie who couldn't even talk properly without a 'z' on the end of everything told you were inferior. When you became eligible, it turns out all those kiddie gearscore peeps were just face rolling the keyboard and had absolutely no idea what to do if something went wrong but blame anyone but themselves.

 

Fact: WoW and meters fostered the notion of cookie cutter class specs. By having the infinite details of every encounter, people were able to code up lists that everyone else what dps was required and to attain that level of dps you required a certain rotation of certain abilities only available by selecting a given spec for your class.

 

Fact: WoW and the add-ons created a game that was played by millions of players who all played the flavor of the month spec and rotation. Added to that was the ability to be told by the game what key or ability to press next. Then added to that was the ability to be told when to move during an encounter.

 

Fact: These meters and their ilk, fostered a player who was no more than an dumb automaton rolling the instructions of someone else who had gleaned all the numbers and macro'd it.

 

Fact: Now we are in a situation whereby every MMO must have these meters and add-ons so the players will not feel inferior and (laughing again) 'bad' because they were never really able to play without the game or it's add-ons telling them what to do.

 

 

 

You guys can have your meters and your helpers and add-ons, I will rest easy knowing that at least for a special moment in my life, I was actually able to play my class without them.

 

I'll rest easy knowing that what we're really seeing is the dawn of the player paying a subscription to a game which they play by following the instructions on the packet.

 

I never really understood why people called others "care bear" in forums. Now, I see the light. Hallelujah !

 

you know nothing about wow, you have never played it at any decent, i would dare to say even medicore level. you are talking about things you have no idea trying to be taken as an expert.

 

your cup of it is a shallow one.

[Zachajariah]

What a nonsense. I doubt the majority of the wow-population started playing wow because they aspired to become a 'top-player' in a 'top guild'.

 

And competition produces leaders? Really?.. I could as well say competition produces elitist jerks (pun intended)

 

On a sidenote: not wanting a recount like tool does not automatically mean you're a bad player with low dps. The arguments are more about the spirit of the game than about someone's skill playing it.

 

... Just ....

 

Competition provides motivation and the self confidence to achieve and want to set goals. I'm honestly in shock from your reaction. Why do you think we don't live in a communist society? Then again, that is probably over your head. Promoting competition is generally a good characteristic of life, not just video games.

 

And yes, when people argue against combat logs/recount, it generally means they are bad and don't wanna be called out for it.

[Sulmithagreyse]

combat logs are so people can point fingers. i 100% understand why people want them, but then it takes away immersion from the game.

 

you can talk to someone and know in 15 seconds if they're a competent player or not. you can look at their gear. it's really simple to know who the problem is gonna be before you even enter combat.

 

at the same time, min-maxing is something people TALK ABOUT more than they do. when mr. bad smuggler tries to min-max his stats while having tons of slop in his rotation, he's really wasting time and probably becoming an unlikable ***** in the process

 

i can see the use of combat logs for internal testing for tuning purposes but everything after that is for e-peen

 

i've played MMOs for over a decade and i'm always one of the guys who can do his job exceptionally well. that's less about me and more about the average MMORPG player. i'll always know that the logical decisions i make for my toon will 100% work.

 

at the same time, the more math you introduce into the community, the less the game feels like an MMORPG. when you can't play a smuggler because the dps is 7% worse than a sorc, you've hurt the game.

 

i'd honestly rather fail more with a group i LIKE than knock out bosses with a group i don't care about. the point is to have fun and the people are the main factor in that.

 

when you realize that what you do in the game means NOTHING, you quit wanting to win at all costs and just want to have fun.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Sulmithagreyse