Dignam Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Obviously a staple for Carnage but anyone field the Dual Wield Mastery is needed for Annihilate or Rage builds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Obviously a staple for Carnage but anyone field the Dual Wield Mastery is needed for Annihilate or Rage builds? Put simply: Annihilation needs 2nd tier Carnage talents and Dual-wield Mastery is a direct-damage increase to any attack that uses both weapons - all if not most of ours. Rage has no use out of any 2nd tier Carnage talents, but at the same time doesn't need any 2nd tier Annihilation talents either. My Rage spec is, therefore, 5/5/31. Enraged Slash and Quick Recovery in Annihilation and Dual Wield Mastery and Defensive Forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getdownsb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Put simply: Annihilation needs 2nd tier Carnage talents and Dual-wield Mastery is a direct-damage increase to any attack that uses both weapons - all if not most of ours. Rage has no use out of any 2nd tier Carnage talents, but at the same time doesn't need any 2nd tier Annihilation talents either. My Rage spec is, therefore, 5/5/31. Enraged Slash and Quick Recovery in Annihilation and Dual Wield Mastery and Defensive Forms. I'm currently ani spec and I don't have any 2nd tier carnage talents. I'm 2-3-2 carnage w/ the rest in rage and it doesn't seem to be lacking anywhere. What is it you feel is mandatory and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaeTakbae Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm currently ani spec and I don't have any 2nd tier carnage talents. I'm 2-3-2 carnage w/ the rest in rage and it doesn't seem to be lacking anywhere. What is it you feel is mandatory and why? Reasons why Carnage Talents are important for Annihilation. Defensive Forms - Increase Fury building. When you play Annihilation you want your Fury skills up 24/7. And increased survivability as a bonus. Duel Wield Mastery - Increases offhand damage by 36%. Better than other options and unlocks level 2 Carnage skills. Narrowed Hatred - Whether for PvP or PvE every level 50 should try to reach 110% hit rate in order to reduce the enemy's dodge/parry rate. Defensive Roll - If you PvP you'll be seeing a lot of AoE Damage. If you PvE proper positioning should reduce the damage you take from AoE skills but the extra survivability is always welcomed. Enraged Charge - I know that you only have 10extra talents points to put in so it becomes a question of Defensive Roll or Enraged Charge. The reason why I say it really shines is because it allows us to do our entire Combo without auto attacking. Force Charge (r4) -> Deadly Saber (r1) -> Battering Assault (r7) -> Rupture (r5) -> Annihilate (r0). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getdownsb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yeah, like I said, I'm 2-3-2 in Carrange. For Ani I think def forms is mandatory for the fury generation, duel wield is a mandatory damage buff. - Narrowed hatred is not worth skill points IMO. You can get 3% accuracy out of your champion implants, I don't have a full champion set yet and I'm at 109%. - Defensive Roll, while logically seems like a great PvP skill, it's again 2 points spent on something that you should be avoiding with situational awareness anyway. I mean, it's not like taking it lets you just wade into an orbital strike or stand there taking repeated smash attacks from a Rage marauder. Don't stand in the red stuff, 2 points saved. - Enraged Charge is 2 points to get 1 extra rage. The thing is that it's 1 extra rage every... 12 seconds? No. The CoP buff is far more valuable. Look: Force charge (3r) -> Deadly saber and CoP in the air (0r) -> Battering Assault (6r). If you haven't received a single incoming attack at that point, you don't need the 1 extra rage from Enraged Charge anyway. If you are getting attacked, welcome to 4 extra rage over that 12 seconds instead of 1. Just my thought, and it seems to be working well for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) From a PvE standpoint Enraged Charge is invaluable for DPS. Defensive Roll is also good if your healers are terrible. Cloak of Carnage doesn't increase Fury generation, it gives Rage when you reciprocate damage. From a PvE standpoint this is situational, at best, and Enraged Charge is much better. You people need to start asking for PvP or PvE advice. The specs are different :\ Edited January 13, 2012 by Kibaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaahanian Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 So is passing the 6% crit from the rage tree on our bleeds worth passing up for spending more points in the carnage tree? (PvE purposes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 So is passing the 6% crit from the rage tree on our bleeds worth passing up for spending more points in the carnage tree? (PvE purposes) In my opinion? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaeTakbae Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 So is passing the 6% crit from the rage tree on our bleeds worth passing up for spending more points in the carnage tree? (PvE purposes) Sorry, noob question. Malice increases bleed crit chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getdownsb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Sorry, noob question. Malice increases bleed crit chance? No. Malice only increases force crit chance. Bleeds are a dot and Ani is 90% melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) No. Malice only increases force crit chance. Bleeds are a dot and Ani is 90% melee. At this point it's theorized all yellow damage - including bleed ticks - are considered Force attacks. Edited January 13, 2012 by Kibaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dignam Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 At this point it's theorized all yellow damage - including bleed ticks - are considered Force attacks. Hmm would be nice to have this confirmed. Malice is a must grab if bleed is force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getdownsb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Hmm would be nice to have this confirmed. Malice is a must grab if bleed is force. People always over-value damage based skills, especially early in a MMO's life. The difference between 30% crit and 36% crit isn't much of a difference in PvP. Especially if you only last 4 seconds because you have no survivability or flexibility. PvE, well, slaying space dragons isn't exactly high skill-cap in comparison so what does it matter. Edited January 13, 2012 by getdownsb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayc Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) People always over-value damage based skills, especially early in a MMO's life. The difference between 30% crit and 36% crit isn't much of a difference in PvP. Especially if you only last 4 seconds because you have no survivability or flexibility. not sure how this is relevant. In what other talent would you put those three points for such an amazing(exaggerated) survivability boost? 6% is a good crit boost, for which you aren't giving up all that much. Edited January 13, 2012 by Sayc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I would love to have it confirmed. There's no primary source that states what Force attacks are and what weapon attacks are. Because things like Smash and Scream deal yellow damage, it's assumed anything that deals yellow damage is a Force attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappus Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Here are a couple thoughts for you guys: Even as Rage specced, you will Ravage and obviously dual wield mastery gives a bonus to that. Obliterate is a dualattack aswell as does vicious slash. The latter is not that important, but still we have those 2 in use quite often so we would net a damage gain. We proceed to accuracy, while having 109% might be true for other classes, we still net damage gain when we have more, because our offhand starts off at 50% accuracy so a lot of the dmg vanishes into misses. It would not get me into spending talents for 3% more accuracy, but it would get me to not drop accuracy enhancements. This is what you get without anything of your offhand:30% dmg and 50% hitrate so statistically a 15% dmg increase.You can go to 66% dmg and maybe 70% accuracy on your offhand netting your skills 46.2% dmg increase (again for rage that would just be ravage and obliterate) Not even sure, that the numbers are correct because I don't took the time to calculate how offhand basedmg is actually calculated and if it benefits from power etc. Maybe someone has and can say a thing or two about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowcreaper Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 this is my current build for Anh and im level 44 atm http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIrRMRMcGzZ0M.1 Unsure where to spend the 2 skill points i have, and Is seeping wound worth while? i spced into it as somone said it usefull but after trying it out in PvP it seems useless as it never works or seems to work and the ability that cripples them seems far better, even if it costs rages to use. suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keltonz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 this is my current build for Anh and im level 44 atm http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIrRMRMcGzZ0M.1 Unsure where to spend the 2 skill points i have, and Is seeping wound worth while? i spced into it as somone said it usefull but after trying it out in PvP it seems useless as it never works or seems to work and the ability that cripples them seems far better, even if it costs rages to use. suggestions? Is this PVE or PVP? I feel like Anni builds, whether PVE or PVP, benefit a ton from fury generation - so I would suggest getting Short Fuse. I only have Seeping Wound since I need the two points somewhere, and its better than other options. IMO, Deep Wound and Pulverize are points better spent elsewhere in a PVP spec . I would get rid of them and get Phantom and put two into Dual Wield Mastery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaeTakbae Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Is this PVE or PVP? I feel like Anni builds, whether PVE or PVP, benefit a ton from fury generation - so I would suggest getting Short Fuse. I only have Seeping Wound since I need the two points somewhere, and its better than other options. IMO, Deep Wound and Pulverize are points better spent elsewhere in a PVP spec . I would get rid of them and get Phantom and put two into Dual Wield Mastery. This right here. Short fuse is an extremely important talent for Annihilation Marauders. I also don't take Pulverize and Deep Wound because I don't believe rupture is a good enough skill to invest four talent points into. It is a 15 second cooldown so I can wait for it. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIrRrMMbGzZhGb.1 This is my current talent build. I'm a big fan of Force Charge the mobility is priceless. I do like Seeping Wound because it allows me to follow up with Savage Kick in PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcaciaDragon Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ataru procs are also yellow damage, but int he tooltip it claims to be energy damage, would love to see alot of this clarified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elear Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Ataru procs are also yellow damage, but int he tooltip it claims to be energy damage, would love to see alot of this clarified. There is no force damage, those are only force skills. I would love to have it confirmed. There's no primary source that states what Force attacks are and what weapon attacks are. Because things like Smash and Scream deal yellow damage, it's assumed anything that deals yellow damage is a Force attack. Quite logical appoach is: skills that benefit from melee damage bonus are physical, and those that benefit from force damage bonus are force attacks. While str and power benefit both, willpower benefits only force skills. Quite simple, eh? That being said, there are two burn skills(I'll keep it republican), Overload saber and Cauterize. My tooltip numbers on them(Over/Cauterize dot/Cauterize direct max) are 397/596/552 at first. Then I take cheap willpower stim, and it becomes 401/600/552. Meaning,both dots benefit from willpower, direct damage from Cauterize doesn't. For me it's enought to consider our dots force attacks. EDIT Done this test earlier for Ataru, and those hits also qualify. Edited January 13, 2012 by Elear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axcys Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 You would in no way need that 6% crit even if it did work. With the talents for juyo form your crit for bleeds is extremely saturated. The fall off on the damage gain from crit % is very very fast after 30% and you should have at least 45% crit on your bleeds with gear thats not ****.. On the other hand getting hit by AOE in pvp and pve is frequent to say the least. Whether your healers are bad or not, AOE damage is the main reason melee can be worse then just having a ranged DPS in their place. A dead marauder does 0 DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasymodeX Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 There is a viewer program that parses the game data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcaciaDragon Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 There is no force damage, those are only force skills. Quite logical appoach is: skills that benefit from melee damage bonus are physical, and those that benefit from force damage bonus are force attacks. While str and power benefit both, willpower benefits only force skills. Quite simple, eh? That being said, there are two burn skills(I'll keep it republican), Overload saber and Cauterize. My tooltip numbers on them(Over/Cauterize dot/Cauterize direct max) are 397/596/552 at first. Then I take cheap willpower stim, and it becomes 401/600/552. Meaning,both dots benefit from willpower, direct damage from Cauterize doesn't. For me it's enought to consider our dots force attacks. EDIT Done this test earlier for Ataru, and those hits also qualify. Ah interesting, thanks for that. So Ataru procs are effected by the crit chance given from Malic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayc Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I doubt that the 6% crit bonus from malice suffers from any sort of DR, being that it is a % bonus. Edited January 13, 2012 by Sayc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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