Wow...So I just tried AP...

[Moardace]

I mean wow...that **** SUCKS compared to pryo...like....BAD...they need to do a lot of work to that tree.

 

What do you think they should do? I think if they made flamethrower able to use while moving as well as removing the critical damage bonus of rocket punch, and adding it to flamethrower

[eXileUnder]

I didn't enjoy it due to it HEAVILY relying on spamming the hell out of flameburt, but it has it's pros.

 

I think it's fair to say it's more of a PvE spec than anything, as it focuses on bit hitting flame throwers and DoT's that require your enemy to stay pretty still, flamethrower can be tough to get off in PvP.

 

AdvP is very heat efficient too.

[Umpire]

Advanced Prototype is a more pve focused tree.

[ZNICK]

Hydraulic Override (speed boost and anti root;stun) and Stabilize Armor (20% less damage when you're stunned) are totally PvP oriented... I'd not agree AP is PvE.

 

You root someone then flame throw them.

 

Z

[Mhak]

Advanced Prototype is a more pve focused tree.

 

You are completely wrong sir. Please hold your opinions if you do not have any idea what you're talking about. AP does roughly 50% less sustained damage in a PvE Operation situation. I've tested both in EV. I knew AP did less damage just from the PvP experience, but when I confirmed it in sustained PvE the damage was so drastically less than Pyrotech I was appalled.

 

AP was designed with PvP heat management and mobility in mind, but in doing so Bioware made it have just insanely less damage than Pyrotech. This while being a "Damage" tree makes it effectively entirely useless, OP is exactly right. It's fine to sacrifice *some* damage for utility, but with AP Bioware just throws all your damage on the ground, burns it and pisses on the ashes.

 

I don't know *** Bioware was thinking when they made this wreck of a tree.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Mhak

[Gizzle]

You are completely wrong sir. Please hold your opinions if you do not have any idea what you're talking about. AP does roughly 50% less sustained damage in a PvE Operation situation. I've tested both in EV. I knew AP did less damage just from the PvP experience, but when I confirmed it in sustained PvE the damage was so drastically less than Pyrotech I was appalled.

 

AP was designed with PvP heat management and mobility in mind, but in doing so Bioware made it have just insanely less damage than Pyrotech. This while being a "Damage" tree makes it effectively entirely useless, OP is exactly right. It's fine to sacrifice *some* damage for utility, but with AP Bioware just throws all your damage on the ground, burns it and pisses on the ashes.

 

I don't know *** Bioware was thinking when they made this wreck of a tree.

 

What damage meter did you use to test this?

 

Or did the whole raid wait for you to solo a mob, then go respec, then come back and solo the mob and using all that you came up with 50%?

 

I am not saying I disagree, just please enlighten us.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Gizzle

[Mhak]

Only because you asked so nicely/sarcastically. I did EV 4 times now, 3 on normal, once on hard where we didn't down the last boss. Here's your enlightenment -

 

The first was done as full Pyrotech. On the Council fight I noticed I killed my Council member before anybody else did, with the second DPS (a sniper) still about 20k behind me by the time I was done. Overall I pulled agro constantly, even with a tank bubble on me. The damage was very impressive.

 

The second time I did EV I was AP, or I should say I did most of it as AP because the damage was so horrible compared to my first run I had to go respec after the Council fight for the last boss. The first boss the damage was so much worse than Pyrotech I wanted to do it then, but because so much of AP's damage *should* come from a +50% damage flamethrower, and I kept getting knocked back and stunned on the first boss, in addition to being forced to move constantly for large portions of the fight, I figured it might have just been a bad boss for AP.

 

I continued on with AP onto the second boss. Doing trash the damage was not that bad, +50% FT channels on a whole pack of mobs is nice, although that single ability was the only thing that was impressive. On to the second boss where I did have to move a lot to avoid Pounces and travel to different lava islands, but for the *most* part I got to stand still and beat on the boss.

 

The damage was still drastically less. Not being able to spam Rail Shots every 3-6 seconds, which proc a 500-1k CGC hit every time, as well as my most-used attack (FB) not getting the extra 500-1k CGC hit every use, is such a massive loss of sustained DPS that I didn't need a meter to tell I was doing much worse as AP. But I still didn't respec, because I knew the perfect test was coming up after some more trash and the 3rd loot chest event.

 

The Council. This is a fight where everybody has to fight their own boss. As I stated earlier, the first time I did this as Pyro, and I finished before any other DPS by a decent margin. Well now I had the exact same opportunity as AP. I chose the exact same council member to fight as last time, a mob with a little over 70k health.

 

I took about 20 seconds longer to kill my mob, and was the second-to-last DPS to finish, finishing only in front a marauder who was new to this and not in great gear. There were tanks and healers who killed their respective mobs faster (tanks and healers fight mobs with different health levels, the idea being we should all finish roughly at the same time). As Pyrotech I was finished *far* before any tanks or healers were.

 

You asked what damage meter I used. It was called "time", and it took a lot more of it to kill the same target as AP than as Pyrotech. There's your enlightenment. I tested these specs legitimately in a controlled environment to best extent I was capable of because I wanted to know which was better. I did not hold any prejudices against either spec before these tests, I wanted to do the best DPS I could, that was all.

 

It might require damage meters to tell which spec is better if the damage was close for each spec, but the damage disparity is so drastic that it's easily noticeable without needing to see a recording of numbers to compare. AP needs vast amounts of love to be brought anywhere close to on-par with Pyrotech's damage.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Mhak

[Boomsyn]

Everyone is correct in assuming that Pyrotech is just flat out better as dps for both PvE and PvP.

 

AP has a far superior vent heating system in place IMO. However, its damage is laughable. Retractable Blade's damage is just abysmal, and hard hitting Immolate and Flame Burst criticals don't make up for the extreme lackluster damage this entire tree does.

 

My suggested fix to this entire problem is to massively bump up the percentage that High Energy Gas Cylinder gives to elemental and internal damage. 8% with talented is not nearly enough, especially when our Mercenary brother's High Energy Gas Cylinder gives them a passive 35% armor penetration. Shouldn't we get around 35% elemental and internal damage? It's the only way to fix AP without massively buffing the already powerful Pyrotech tree.

 

My only other fix would be to just double the damage of Retractable Blade, because both it's DoT and straight damage are terrible. I know the blade is there to DoT the target so we can Rail Shot, but it shouldn't be that damn awful.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Boomsyn

[Agroovesak]

Buffing HEGC is probably the best way to increase AP's damage.

 

They should also change Proto Flamethrower. Should stack way faster at least and preferably make it easier to use Flamethrower in general. Something like 2 stacks of 25% or 3 stacks of 20%. Also maybe adding the ability to move, a 50% snare on target being hit with FT, a size increase to the hit cone, or a combination of these. I actually think a base increase of hitbox (to use a fighting game term) on FT and the Proto FT skill adding a decent length 50% snare to FT would be really nice. Also would give AP a snare while keeping it not really spammable.

[Mhak]

I agree that buffing both HEGC is the way to go, as well as significantly altering the FT mechanic.

 

The +50% Flamethrower is supposed to be the "oomf" of AP. Slightly-more-often critting Rail Shots are unimpressive when they don't get a +30% crit damage bonus, and all the other damage is just plain sub-par. +50% damage Flamethrower is impressive when you get the whole thing off, but is just a terrible move to lay all our chips on -

 

It's easily avoidable. It's easily interruptable (melee classes we fight will just save their interrupt for FT, because they have nothing else to interrupt.) The damage-ticking mechanic is terribly designed and takes significantly longer to hit a target at distance than ones up close. With lag people often appear to be somewhere they're not, and if you rotate with an opponent while channeling FC, you usually see them getting doused in fire but taking not a single tick of damage due to the crappy programming of this skill.

 

It is confusing, then, for Bioware to design the AP tree as a highly-mobile, hard-to-CC brawler with great resource management...but make their hardest hitting ability require them to stand still, and make it so easy to avoid or negate entirely the damage of it.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Mhak

[apostian]

Well it IS a prototype...

 

I just wanted to say that for leveling, AP has been an absolute blast.

Edited January 12, 2012 by apostian

[Cryonic_Preacher]

I really like the style from the AP , but it's true this spec must be rebalanced and buffed.

 

But I didn't know if bioware interested in these things and see the problem also like us

[Gizzle]

Only because you asked so nicely/sarcastically. I did EV 4 times now, 3 on normal, once on hard where we didn't down the last boss. Here's your enlightenment -

 

The first was done as full Pyrotech. On the Council fight I noticed I killed my Council member before anybody else did, with the second DPS (a sniper) still about 20k behind me by the time I was done. Overall I pulled agro constantly, even with a tank bubble on me. The damage was very impressive.

 

The second time I did EV I was AP, or I should say I did most of it as AP because the damage was so horrible compared to my first run I had to go respec after the Council fight for the last boss. The first boss the damage was so much worse than Pyrotech I wanted to do it then, but because so much of AP's damage *should* come from a +50% damage flamethrower, and I kept getting knocked back and stunned on the first boss, in addition to being forced to move constantly for large portions of the fight, I figured it might have just been a bad boss for AP.

 

I continued on with AP onto the second boss. Doing trash the damage was not that bad, +50% FT channels on a whole pack of mobs is nice, although that single ability was the only thing that was impressive. On to the second boss where I did have to move a lot to avoid Pounces and travel to different lava islands, but for the *most* part I got to stand still and beat on the boss.

 

The damage was still drastically less. Not being able to spam Rail Shots every 3-6 seconds, which proc a 500-1k CGC hit every time, as well as my most-used attack (FB) not getting the extra 500-1k CGC hit every use, is such a massive loss of sustained DPS that I didn't need a meter to tell I was doing much worse as AP. But I still didn't respec, because I knew the perfect test was coming up after some more trash and the 3rd loot chest event.

 

The Council. This is a fight where everybody has to fight their own boss. As I stated earlier, the first time I did this as Pyro, and I finished before any other DPS by a decent margin. Well now I had the exact same opportunity as AP. I chose the exact same council member to fight as last time, a mob with a little over 70k health.

 

I took about 20 seconds longer to kill my mob, and was the second-to-last DPS to finish, finishing only in front a marauder who was new to this and not in great gear. There were tanks and healers who killed their respective mobs faster (tanks and healers fight mobs with different health levels, the idea being we should all finish roughly at the same time). As Pyrotech I was finished *far* before any tanks or healers were.

 

You asked what damage meter I used. It was called "time", and it took a lot more of it to kill the same target as AP than as Pyrotech. There's your enlightenment. I tested these specs legitimately in a controlled environment to best extent I was capable of because I wanted to know which was better. I did not hold any prejudices against either spec before these tests, I wanted to do the best DPS I could, that was all.

 

It might require damage meters to tell which spec is better if the damage was close for each spec, but the damage disparity is so drastic that it's easily noticeable without needing to see a recording of numbers to compare. AP needs vast amounts of love to be brought anywhere close to on-par with Pyrotech's damage.

 

Hey, makes sense to me, kill the same target, one takes longer than the other. I will believe you, dont worry LOL, I just want to know as I recruited a PT to my guild(I MT) and want him to have a optimal DPS spec so he can learn the fights and in time, tank them while I level my other 2 tanks if you can suggest a good pyro pve spec I will link it to him when I get home, you can PM me also, that will work better, thanks.

[Mhak]

Hey, makes sense to me, kill the same target, one takes longer than the other. I will believe you, dont worry LOL, I just want to know as I recruited a PT to my guild(I MT) and want him to have a optimal DPS spec so he can learn the fights and in time, tank them while I level my other 2 tanks if you can suggest a good pyro pve spec I will link it to him when I get home, you can PM me also, that will work better, thanks.

 

Your question and posed scenario was framed so tongue-in-cheek that I'm surprised you didn't choke a little while typing it. I was speaking from experience that I put a lot of effort into and you mocked it without knowing that I had, in fact, tested the 2 specs in a controlled environment to the best extent this game will currently allow. You even had the good Admiral confirm your intent at the end.

 

It's impossible for me/most people to get offended over the interwebz, but you sure were being a complete dick when you phrased that post - which I still put lots of effort into answering to the best of my ability for the purpose of helping my fellow PTs perform the best they can.

 

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301bMZMsZfhrbzGhrs.1

Edited January 12, 2012 by Mhak

[Rotm]

They did a good job actually putting the damage increases to turn a tank class into a dps in the talent tree for Pyro, and I even like that you can give up 11 points in pyro to lose burst for sustained damage with a pyro/AP retractable blade hybrid. However AP on its own falls apart because so much of the damage is added through CGC and particle accelerator. I would never consider using HEGC or going above tier 5 of AP. Particle acclerator is so good that people even waste 3 points in superheated gas for it while running Jet Charge hybrids.

 

Immolate should have like a very strong dot attached. Maybe double the base damage over 18-21 seconds or something. Jet Charge also seems to fit with the flavor of that tree better as its similar to a Juggernauts Vengeance tree.

[Smokt]

THank you guys for this thread and the 300,000 credits you just saved me.

[Xsorus]

So much wrong in this thread it's scary.

 

Then again, considering some people in this thread view 20% damage reduction while stunned as a bad talent.. it's to be expected.

[Mhak]

So much wrong in this thread it's scary.

 

Then again, considering some people in this thread view 20% damage reduction while stunned as a bad talent.. it's to be expected.

 

Some people consider people who think 20% damage reduction while stunned is good to be inexperienced PvPers who have not actually tested the talent very much and seen how rarely it makes any difference.

 

But we're all positive that your opinion out of everyone else's is the only empirically correct opinion, as you have clearly demonstrated that you are vastly more knowledgeable than everybody else here.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Mhak

[pattymcfatty]

AP does roughly 50% less sustained damage in a PvE Operation situation. I've tested both in EV.

 

Please enlighten me as to how you're coming up with the figure of 50% less damage as AP without damage meters or a combat log.

 

 

It sounds to me like you're making **** up.

 

[chainsawsamurai]

Please enlighten me as to how you're coming up with the figure of 50% less damage as AP without damage meters or a combat log.

 

 

It sounds to me like you're making **** up.

 

He already explained it. Like two posts down from there.

[Xsorus]

Some people consider people who think 20% damage reduction while stunned is good to be inexperienced PvPers who have not actually tested the talent very much and seen how rarely it makes any difference.

 

But we're all positive that your opinion out of everyone else's is the only empirically correct opinion, as you have clearly demonstrated that you are vastly more knowledgeable than everybody else here.

 

Like I said, terrible players who lack years of PvP experience making moronic mistakes when picking talents and flailing around horribly in threads talking about stuff they clearly know nothing about.

 

My personal favorite part of your previous post was "I just pop my 2 min cooldown, and usually if i'm stunned and have 5 people beating on me, i'm dead anyway"

 

Which is pretty much true, if ya don't take that talent and you're bad.

[chainsawsamurai]

Like I said, terrible players who lack years of PvP experience making moronic mistakes when picking talents and flailing around horribly in threads talking about stuff they clearly know nothing about.

 

My personal favorite part of your previous post was "I just pop my 2 min cooldown, and usually if i'm stunned and have 5 people beating on me, i'm dead anyway"

 

Which is pretty much true, if ya don't take that talent and you're bad.

 

So one guy makes a post in the other thread about how he didn't take that talent and suddenly everyone who dislikes Adv Proto is automatically bad at the game?

 

That doesn't follow hombre.

[Xsorus]

He already explained it. Like two posts down from there.

 

Only problem is he's wrong, as usual.

 

When someone posts something like this.

 

"Not being able to spam Rail Shots every 3-6 seconds" you should probably not listen to them.

 

Pyro tree is a "range" based tree, and what I mean by that is, It has a chance to do a stupid amount of burst if ya keep getting the free Rail Shot over and over again, In reality, that does not happen every single time, and you have dead spots where ya just don't get that burst.

 

Next up is.

 

"I took about 20 seconds longer to kill my mob, and was the second-to-last DPS to finish, finishing only in front a marauder who was new to this and not in great gear."

 

Yea, I finish first every single time when doing AP, if you're finishing near last place on DPS, you're not doing it right.

 

Which boggle my mind, since AP doesn't have the most complex rotation ever.

 

Now that's not to say that Pyro can't beat AP at it, it most certainly can if you get lucky with the Railshots going off. But anyone with half a brain knows the 50% less damage mark make ZERO sense.

 

don't even get me started on wanting to increase the DPS Cylinder in AP from 8 to 20% or 30%

 

The level stupidity displayed in that is just silly.

 

The highest i've hit for in PvP is a little over 4k on Immolate, Increasing that would just be moronic.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Xsorus

[Xsorus]

So one guy makes a post in the other thread about how he didn't take that talent and suddenly everyone who dislikes Adv Proto is automatically bad at the game?

 

That doesn't follow hombre.

 

you're allowed to dislike AP, screwing up while speccing then complaining it's a bad spec is another.

 

It'd be like me speccing Pyro, but not picking up PPA because I don't think it goes off enough, then coming to the boards and complaining how horrible the Pyro Line is.

 

Would you listen to me if I did that?

[chainsawsamurai]

you're allowed to dislike AP, screwing up while speccing then complaining it's a bad spec is another.

 

It'd be like me speccing Pyro, but not picking up PPA because I don't think it goes off enough, then coming to the boards and complaining how horrible the Pyro Line is.

 

Would you listen to me if I did that?

 

Of course not, but I don't even think that guy is in this thread, so why bring it up so dismissively.