Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

[Flowerslayer]

Please do not disgrace the name of a Blizzar "Blue" by comparing them to that of the Bioware "Yellows". Bioware has been told time and time again that their lack of a customer facing approach on the forums is night and day when paired against Blizzard. You are doing Blizzard a dis-service by using the term "Blue" when coming to Bioware's forums. Just sayin'.

 

Well...yeah, I guess Im right with you on that one. The communication has been pretty much one-sided thus far to put it mildly.

 

Still, theres a vague hope for a droid to respond.

[piethief]

Something about this stinks...

 

I can't believe that all of what is speculated is being done server side, but something is wrong here.

 

Even if just character models were being done server side, it would explain a lot in relation to lag.

 

Would love some clarification. I can't begin to understand why they would have implemented this approach.

[Ossos]

It's not a response, it was written before this. It'd have to be a presponse

 

This thread has everything to do with what is causing the delays that players are experiencing. Although the "response" came out yesterday, it still applies to the subject.

 

Players "We are having lag issues, ability delays, etc. Help!"

Bioware "That's troubling. We'll look into it."

Players "Help!! The game is lagzors!"

Bioware "We looked into it. It's your crappy computers, it has nothing to do with us."

Players "My puters is ROXRZ!! <Kick Butt Computer Stats here>"

Bioware "It's you not us."

Logic and Reason "If you don't like it, and don't like the response...don't play. Why would you pay money for something you don't like?! Would you pay $15 per month for all the canned spinach you could eat if you didn't like canned spinnach?! ...it makes as much sense."

 

Players "But we love Starwars GAMES!"

Bioware (ultimately) "Suffer through it and give us our money you ADDICTS!!"

 

 

Looks like some people have a choice to make.

[Cylide]

Interesting theory; but I don't really expect BioWare to reveal internal information about their used programming techniques.

And even if this was true none of us are entitled to know about it nor has BioWare the obligation to inform us. I am not defending their (possibly bad) design decisions but they are allowed to publish whatever they want since it's not damaging anyone. It's not even some kind of personal data scandal like Origin. The only option you have if you don't like the software is to not buy it like other Software you don't like.

 

This is in no way meant to fanboy BioWare, I am in this matter purely neutral since I am pleased with the client's performance and I do not have bandwidth limitations. As a software engineer I am interested in whatever techniques may or may not have been used here though. I just don't have high hopes of even seeing some kind of BioWare reply to this and you probably shouldn't either.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Cylide
Typos

[SongstressCela]

...What? Are you kidding me? That Massively post is a huge joke too. I'm running an i7-480 with 8GB of RAM and a Radeon 5770. Sure it's not top of the line, but it should be running a game like this WAY better than it actually is.

 

I'm inclined to believe this post for sure, because the Fleets are always the worst offenders. I can run around outside with little issue, but as soon as I get to the Fleet, fps drops horribly.

 

Even Square realized this kind of delayed server response crap doesn't fly and removed it from FFXIV, what the heck is Bioware's excuse?

 

Not that we'll ever get an answer, of course. Even Riot is better at transparency on the forums than this.

[Lightmgl]

There is no way that server side rendering is being done here, the amount of data being sent is wayyyyyy too small and the game clearly uses Client Side Prediction, which it wouldn't if rendering info was being handled remotely. There would be a much larger delay too when performing actions.

 

The more likely thing as suggested is that the models are encrypted locally and are being decrypted by the second process which is behaving as a local server with an ip loopback.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Lightmgl

[maxbaby]

I am sure BW staff is yelling at LA and EA staff atm trying to figure out how to solve problem without acknowledging that they crapped in the corner.

[asbalana]

Great thread and great discussions back and forth. Thanks to everyone posting and thanks to Trion for starting it. I am a not a computer professional and have learned a great deal from the ability delay thread and this one. The education alone is probably worth what I paid for the game.

 

From the viewpoint of the unwashed and ignorant, that this game has performance issues in an number of areas is clear and somewhat dissapointing. I am enjoying the game and will continue my sub for the foreseeable future but do find it sad that such a great game is so frought with "technical" issues.

 

Best to all.

[maxbaby]

On the other hand, I can play this game thru cellphone internet.

Latency is 120 ms.

Edited January 11, 2012 by maxbaby

[sisley]

/subscribed

[tcander]

interesting

[CyberData]

I mean, I don't have a beefy machine:

Core i5 750 @ 2.73Ghz

Radeon HD 6870 1GB

8GB Ram

 

I keep my rig clean and generally get good performance in all my games. Sure, I may have to drop shadows down here or there, but all in all, my PC runs anything on the market just fine.

 

With that said, I get 60fps in most places in the game but on the space station I'm getting 20-30 fps. In warzones I'm getting 30-40.

 

I honestly don't think it's my rig. At all. They stated MULTIPLE times they wanted their game to be VERY scaleable to run well on a wide variety of machines. While my computer isn't top of the line, it's not some out-of-date mess either. It's not like I'm trying to run this on a Athlon 64 3200 w/ radeon 9800 pro 128 w/ 2 gb memory.

 

The engine is just very unoptimized. I assume it'll take time to work out. The lack of communication from the dev team leaves a LOT to be desired.

[Ossos]

Edited cuz I was trolling.

 

 

They KNOW IT'S THERE!! They've already stated on multiple media outlets that the believe the issue to be the client's (you all) computers.

 

This thread addresses what could possibly be causing the delays/lag/poor performance that people experience. Bioware as stated that it's your computer that's causing it.

 

Whether or not this is true has no bearing on their stance regarding this matter. The only thing that's going to MAKE THEM take another look is a severe lack of $$ coming in on Wednesday.

 

Sorry, truth hurts. They've already run their responses through corporate and they've decided that all issues are YOUR MACHINE.

 

Live with it or /cancel.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Ossos

[LexonLightsaber]

This thread has everything to do with what is causing the delays that players are experiencing. Although the "response" came out yesterday, it still applies to the subject.

 

Players "We are having lag issues, ability delays, etc. Help!"

Bioware "That's troubling. We'll look into it."

Players "Help!! The game is lagzors!"

Bioware "We looked into it. It's your crappy computers, it has nothing to do with us."

Players "My puters is ROXRZ!! <Kick Butt Computer Stats here>"

Bioware "It's you not us."

Logic and Reason "If you don't like it, and don't like the response...don't play. Why would you pay money for something you don't like?! Would you pay $15 per month for all the canned spinach you could eat if you didn't like canned spinnach?! ...it makes as much sense."

 

Players "But we love Starwars GAMES!"

Bioware (ultimately) "Suffer through it and give us our money you ADDICTS!!"

 

 

Looks like some people have a choice to make.

 

I am trying to understand you're replies within this OP posts. There is very little to no trolling within these threads. Just a very constructive conversation that is leading to people wanting a response either way. With respect to if you don't like this game don't pay for it, no one here is saying that. Quite the contrary a majority have stated there love for this game but that this thread has raised some concerns. Please leave the trolling to the other 1,000 posts within this forum, because this post is one of the few that has very little of it, either way.

[arbuznos]

Wow they just digging their own grave there by not responding. Your time is running out, Bioware!

 

Despite all the bugs i intended to keep on playing this game but now when i see what DIRECTION this game is moving i just lost all hope for the best, because if developers cant overcome these kind of restrictions from publishers theres just no good outcome to be expected.

[daMarek]

I wonder what the big deal about stealing these models might be...

 

Sure someone could make hentai anime movies about twileks humping, but it's gonna happen eventually anyway. Let the enforcement (FBI) worry about that.

[Jonlinar]

What are with the posts referencing Jan 20th? Is that the next patch date?

[Arkulin]

Just so I know you guys understand what "rendering" is.

 

Rendering is the creation of an image from a data based 3D model.

 

If you're suggesting that some of that is being done server side and then streamed to your 3D engine, then I'm afraid that's flawed.

 

I'll explain why.

 

To bring the two images together, the streamed image, let's say my Jedi Knight has to be superimposed into the 3D gfx card rendered image. Getting the two images synced up, given the nature of internet lags and spikes, would be almost impossible.

 

Why would the images need to be synced up perfectly?

 

Because if you are superimposing pre rendered models onto the scene, they wouldn't cast shadows or light up the environment with lightsabers. Which means they'd need to have a local proxy model on your PC, which was 3d accurate, along with its associated light sources.

 

Both the model and the pre-rendered image would have to be in the same place at the same time all the time. Or it would be easily apparent.

 

The other thing to remember, is a pre rendered image superimposed onto a 3d scene, would also need z-buffer information, for occlusion, which again would have the effect, if it went out of sync, of things not dissapearing behind other things.

 

Also anyone who'd played with 3D vision would have noticed it straight away.

 

In summary, whatever it is that this remote renderer call is doing, it isn't pre-rendering images on a server and streaming them to us.

 

 

"OnLive is a cloud gaming platform: the games are synchronized, rendered, and stored on remote servers and delivered via the Internet.

 

The service is available using the OnLive Game System,PCs running Microsoft Windows (XP, Vista, 7), Intel-based Macs with OS X 10.5.8 or later, Android devices and iOS devices. Since the games are rendered on OnLive's servers, a low-end computer may be used to play any kind of game as long as it is able to play video.

 

OnLive recommends an Internet connection of 5 Mbit/s or faster, and a 2 Mbit/s connection meets the minimum system requirements.[8]

 

Over 50 publishers, such as Take-Two, Ubisoft, Epic Games, Atari, Codemasters, THQ, Warner Bros., Kalypso Media, 2D Boy, Eidos Interactive, Disney Interactive Studios, and others have partnered with OnLive.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Arkulin

[Katrar]

I am sure BW staff is yelling at LA and EA staff atm trying to figure out how to solve problem without acknowledging that they crapped in the corner.

 

This. The last thing in the world EA will do, if this is even a quarter true (because lets face it, its EA calling the shots, not BW) is admit any sort of problem exists, let alone culpability.

 

We'll likely never know the answer to this riddle.

[mcfabulous]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=162569

 

stephen responded

[Granrick]

Hi mate, "I am that speculator ;)" who has shad light on RemoteRenderer thingy and Lemon_King has poke around as well in the Renderer where it handles Dynamic Models .

That said, take a look at this:

"OnLive is a cloud gaming platform: the games are synchronized, rendered, and stored on remote servers and delivered via the Internet.

 

The service is available using the OnLive Game System,PCs running Microsoft Windows (XP, Vista, 7), Intel-based Macs with OS X 10.5.8 or later, Android devices and iOS devices. Since the games are rendered on OnLive's servers, a low-end computer may be used to play any kind of game as long as it is able to play video.

 

OnLive recommends an Internet connection of 5 Mbit/s or faster, and a 2 Mbit/s connection meets the minimum system requirements.[8]

 

Over 50 publishers, such as Take-Two, Ubisoft, Epic Games, Atari, Codemasters, THQ, Warner Bros., Kalypso Media, 2D Boy, Eidos Interactive, Disney Interactive Studios, and others have partnered with OnLive.

 

Sorry, but this has already been covered. Yes OnLive Streams games, but it's basically streaming a video. We can verify very easily that this isn't going on by adjusting settings via our drivers and viewing the amount of data streaming.

[miliways]

Here's something that doesn't lag.

coding for it started in 1999.

 

The first thing explains the second. Software takes time to support, and becomes more reliable over time, not the other way around. Also, older software is less demanding than newer software targeted at brand new hardware.

 

WoW had its share of bugs but has had years to patch them. I assure you in years that TOR will be almost unreocgnizable.

 

Is this your first videogame? Or your first MMO? Sorry if that sounds condescending, but its like you've never heard of game patches before.

 

You know the original counter-strike had bugs in it? And guess what, now its pretty stable. Coding for it probably started around 2000.

 

Not sure what point you were trying to make, but you don't really have one.

[Cylide]

I am sure BW staff is yelling at LA and EA staff atm trying to figure out how to solve problem without acknowledging that they crapped in the corner.

 

Quit dreaming. You won't even hear a word about this topic. The forums tend to feel themselves way more important than they actually are.

[MrTijger]

This. The last thing in the world EA will do, if this is even a quarter true (because lets face it, its EA calling the shots, not BW) is admit any sort of problem exists, let alone culpability.

 

We'll likely never know the answer to this riddle.

 

Or, you know, t here is no riddle at all and people are adding 1+1 and getting 5

[HundeThutt]

This is horrible, no wonder everything runs so slow with Champions Online graphics.

 

Sheesh

 

 

Hero engine failure.