Private combat logs?

[Jett-Rinn]

So we have to be ghettoized so that the casuals can remove all accountability from pugs?

 

See that right there.

 

Next time you guys want to blame someone for not having a public log blame comments like this because it is what made devs like Georg Zoller (who is a big time min/maxer raider) take a second look.

 

Thanks Alps you have helped the cause in innumerable ways.

[ironix]

Still waiting on this testimony, by the way.

 

Hah! Me too. =D

[aimbotcfg]

Still waiting on this testimony, by the way.

 

You won't get one, or if you do it will be fictional. Just like you'll never get an answer as to how it is that people think passing a test, where you don't know the questions, through trial and error with a bit of luck thrown in, makes you better at the test than someone who passes it knowing the questions and having the knowlege to answer them.

[Jett-Rinn]

You won't get one, or if you do it will be fictional. Just like you'll never get an answer as to how it is that people think passing a test, where you don't know the questions, through trial and error with a bit of luck thrown in, makes you better at the test than someone who passes it knowing the questions and having the knowlege to answer them.

 

And that is why no one is bothering because no matter what we say it will be "All lies" or "Highly exaggerated" in you guys eyes...it's not worth it. We got the best compromise, it'd a done deal time to move on.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[Appletaz]

While I really want to have my own personal combat log -- for many reasons -- the OPs insistence that it be put in the public domain is a little outrageous, and I do not agree with it. The very idea that he cannot tolerate not knowing every single detail about someone else's "performance," in a simple group for receiving xp and loot in a video game is a little scary, to be honest.

 

OCD control freaks should form guilds and play exclusively together and not subject the rest of the world to their peculiarities.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

You won't get one, or if you do it will be fictional. Just like you'll never get an answer as to how it is that people think passing a test, where you don't know the questions, through trial and error with a bit of luck thrown in, makes you better at the test than someone who passes it knowing the questions and having the knowlege to answer them.

 

Thanks Mr Miyagi.

 

I honestly can't imagine a scenario where a person could perform well and have data used to disgrace them. An apocryphal story is fine, I mainly want an example of how it could happen.

[AlpsStranger]

See that right there.

 

Next time you guys want to blame someone for not having a public log blame comments like this because it is what made devs like Georg Zoller (who is a big time min/maxer raider) take a second look.

 

Thanks Alps you have helped the cause in innumerable ways.

 

I apologize for nothing. PUGs *do* require accountability. Nobody should be kicked for not being in the 99th percentile of damage for their class, but being in the 10th percentile is just a big "**** You!" to the rest of your pug.

 

And yes, you can look very active and not be doing ****.

Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Jett-Rinn]

While I really want to have my own personal combat log -- for many reasons -- the OPs insistence that it be put in the public domain is a little outrageous, and I do not agree with it. The very idea that he cannot tolerate not knowing every single detail about someone else's "performance," in a simple group for receiving xp and loot in a video game is a little scary, to be honest.

 

OCD control freaks should form guilds and play exclusively together and not subject the rest of the world to their peculiarities.

 

 

Exactly and really it was these types that ended up ruining several guilds that I was a part of.

[Sendrel]

OCD control freaks should form guilds and play exclusively together and not subject the rest of the world to their peculiarities.

 

I'm pretty sure that's the problem that most rational people have with optional, self-only combat logs. No one cares about flashpoints. Its the fact that they'll have to jump through some pretty idiotic hoops to get what they need in order to min/max in a manner that's acceptable.

 

Not that they can't call you bad in a flashpoint.

[Maigrey]

Give me damage meters it will make it much easier for me to find people I want to group with.

 

If you don't like them, then I don't want to group with you. I am fine with that, why would you want to group with me if you know that I am like this? Adding dmage meters, even if you don't like them, will make it easier for you to find the people you want to group with, you can go group with all the other people that don't use them.

[ironix]

See that right there.

 

Next time you guys want to blame someone for not having a public log blame comments like this because it is what made devs like Georg Zoller (who is a big time min/maxer raider) take a second look.

 

Thanks Alps you have helped the cause in innumerable ways.

 

Actually, Alps has a valid point. What's going to happen now is that instead of using real data to boot people from raids, the jerkwads will simply boot people who refuse to make their logs public by saying something like "If you're doing fine, what have you got to hide?"

 

For the jerkwads that every game has, this won't make things any different. They'll just blame anyone who refuses to make their log public. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see general LFG spam start to look like "LFM Eternity Vault -- must have public logs."

 

In essence, those who refuse to share their logs will be 'ghettoized' per se. The only difference here is that they will be assumed to have low performance instead of there actually being public data behind that assumption.

[Jett-Rinn]

I apologize for nothing. PUGs *do* require accountability. Nobody should be kicked for not being in the 99th percentile of damage for their class, but being in the 10th percentile is just a big "**** You!" to the rest of your pug.

 

And yes, you can look very active and not be doing ****.

 

 

And I don't want you to Apologize or ever change Alps; ranting about DPS slackers, bads and scrubs has shown Bioware that you really can't have a friendly inviting community and allow these types to have their way.

[Tahana]

I wasn't so much sick of Trion, but sick of the people that kept demanding stuff just like here. People wanted the combat log disabled in Rift since day 1.

 

To me honestly you seem overall like a decent guy.. Someone who can let his passion get away from him from time to time, but a decent guy.. You also seem to be a player who likes to know everything about his class.. The kind of person I would like to be in a guild with.. So why are you even pugging at all? Serious question here..

 

It isn't that I disagree with the meter crowd. I've always ridden the fence on this issue. I'll use the tools if they are in a game, but am competent enough to be able to string together abilities based on the tool tips to achieve at least a decent rotation. But in all honesty I have yet to personally see anything that needs a meter.. Maybe the nightmare modes of this game will need it, but IMO that would be about it..

[Jett-Rinn]

Actually, Alps has a valid point. What's going to happen now is that instead of using real data to boot people from raids, the jerkwads will simply boot people who refuse to make their logs public by saying something like "If you're doing fine, what have you got to hide?"

 

For the jerkwads that every game has, this won't make things any different. They'll just blame anyone who refuses to make their log public. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see general LFG spam start to look like "LFM Eternity Vault -- must have public logs."

 

In essence, those who refuse to share their logs will be 'ghettoized' per se. The only difference here is that they will be assumed to have low performance instead of there actually being public data behind that assumption.

 

Before you go making that assumption lets just see how Bioware implements you combat log; they could very well set it so it's not vewable until after instance is over providing a summary of how you did. A lot of comments have been dropped about this on twitter and over at Google plus and they are well aware of all of the

 

"Well if they do this I'm just gonna"

 

[ironix]

And I don't want you to Apologize or ever change Alps; ranting about DPS slackers, bads and scrubs has shown Bioware that you really can't have a friendly inviting community and allow these types to have their way.

 

Your words, not his.

Edited January 11, 2012 by ironix

[Vydor_HC]

Thanks Mr Miyagi.

 

I honestly can't imagine a scenario where a person could perform well and have data used to disgrace them. An apocryphal story is fine, I mainly want an example of how it could happen.

 

That's the point, I was trying to make. It doesn't happen when people are performing. When the person is deemed to be not performing well, against some arbitrary standard. Then it's used as a weapon to bludgeon them. Not as a tool to help improve performance, which could be the case, but it's generally not.

 

For example, my wife and I were doing a dungeon in Warhammer with some people we didn't really know, other than we'd seen them in battle around. We kept failing on a difficult boss, and the leader told my wife, everyone was doing the correct amount of damage, so she must not be healing enough, and promptly booted her.

 

It's stuff like this, that is the norm rather than the exception, that make a tool that could be a positive feature, a negative one.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Jett-Rinn]

Your words, not his.

 

Generalizing speaking more of the group mentality not the individual.

[Verain]

And every sequel Link manages to steal your part of the Triforce and save the princess.

 

I really like this line lol

[Truga]

You won't get one, or if you do it will be fictional. Just like you'll never get an answer as to how it is that people think passing a test, where you don't know the questions, through trial and error with a bit of luck thrown in, makes you better at the test than someone who passes it knowing the questions and having the knowlege to answer them.

 

Actually, this is more like passing a driving exam. You have your speed and RPM gauges (HP and Force/Heat/Ammo/Energy), and need to use the information available from outside the windshield to make decisions on which pedals (hotkeys) to press and where to steer (move) to not crash and burn, all while making sure your speed or fuel do not drop to 0, or if they do, it's with a good reason.

 

The information you want is already available, it just doesn't get logged, and might be obscurely represented. And I do understand your frustration with people who just don't pull their weight. I personally put such people on ignore as soon as I spot them, by whatever way. And while recount would make my life easier, it's not a gamebreaker for me to not have it.

 

But you have to admit, it does make the game harder by making you keep an eye on everything, rather than just "oh, if we fail this time, we'll see in the logs what happened and adjust". And I think this is the main argument in these thread against recount, rather than jerks and baddies.

 

Edit: though jerks and baddies seem to be the most often mentioned, I don't really see those as arguments.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Truga

[Devorin_Sargothi]

That's the point, I was trying to make. It doesn't happen when people are performing. When the person is deemed to be not performing well, against some arbitrary standard. Then it's used as a weapon to bludgeon them. Not as a tool to help improve performance, which could be the case, but it's generally not.

 

For example, my wife and I were doing a dungeon in Warhammer with some people we didn't really know, other than we'd seen them in battle around. We kept failing on a difficult boss, and the leader told my wife, everyone was doing the correct amount of damage, so she must not be healing enough, and promptly booted her.

 

It's stuff like this, that is the norm rather than the exception, that make a tool that could be a positive feature, a negative one.

 

So what did the problem turn out to be?

[guided_by_voices]

So tell me, how is trying to be good at the game and being good at a class I like playing disabling me from playing any content anyone else can enjoy?

 

The information provided by those meters can and does get taken out of context or misrepresented.

 

The information is used to harm others.

 

To me those two are enough not to include them. Others have posted many other reasons. I'd like to ask you if you consider yourself hardcore? because I fail to see how anyone can who is asking for help playing the game so early on.

 

Include every meter you want in test setting. the game becomes alot more interesting if you have to figure things out the hard way then having some mod do the work for you.

[Vydor_HC]

So what did the problem turn out to be?

 

No idea, as I left the group instantly. I could careless what the problem was after that, when my wife was berated and treated in that manner I had no intention of interacting with those players again.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[AlpsStranger]

But you have to admit, it does make the game harder by making you keep an eye on everything, rather than just "oh, if we fail this time, we'll see in the logs what happened and adjust". And I think this is the main argument in these thread against recount, rather than jerks and baddies.

 

Harder, but in a *very* lame way. It's harder in the same sense that FPSs are harder with gamepads. If raids are balanced around heavy tool use they're more likely to be white-knuckle tight-tolerance affairs. If they're based around a really basic stock UI they'll be a lot more tolerant.

[ironix]

Generalizing speaking more of the group mentality not the individual.

 

Well, since I technically belong in said category, I take offence. I actually get really pissed off at people who start calling each other "bads" or "scrubs." They're denigrating terms that get thrown around a lot by overly aggressive and insensitive bastards. For you to even hint that I'm among this crowd ticks me off to no end.

[aimbotcfg]

And that is why no one is bothering because no matter what we say it will be "All lies" or "Highly exaggerated" in you guys eyes...it's not worth it. We got the best compromise, it'd a done deal time to move on.

 

No, you mean you actually have no proof or valid point. Just scaremongering that everyone thats not doing 100% the best damage posible will be ousted from society.

 

Thats not the case, all we want is a way to tell if people are taking the piss or if something is going horribly wrong in raids. You know, numerical feedback, as opposed to you wiped for some reason.