Private combat logs?

[AlpsStranger]

He pays 15 a month too, so why should you get royal treatment? You are better at the game, you know that, feel proud and let the man bake his cake...

 

Because we either won't be able to clear the boss with someone like this in our group, or the game will be so easy that it will be boring.

 

Second, what does $15 have to do with anything? This isn't a movie. If you suck you don't get to go all the way to the end. That's why it's called a game.

Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[dimster]

I'm all for combat logs and stuff like recount so I can tell how I am personally doing, and if I were DPS (as I was in WOW), I like to use it to compare my performance against others. My old guild was mature enough that we didn't have children who thought that the meter was the be-all and end-all of raiding, and we used it as a tool to see where we might improve, and who was getting it completely wrong (Seriously, we had a Rogue use Fan of Knives in his regular 1-target DPS rotation - obviously we noticed the knives spraying everywhere every few seconds... but this wasn't his only mistake).

 

I understand however that my guild was exceptional in that regard, and in a new game like this it would easily be abused and used as a elitist device to prevent newbies getting groups at all. Perhaps later in the game's development would be a better time to introduce it?

 

For those thinking my first paragraph makes me somehow 'elitist' or that people should be able to play however they like, I disagree. If 16 people are on an Op trying to succeed, and 1 of those people is 'playing however they like' and basically not doing as much damage as he should or heals per second etc, the other 15 have to work harder. That casual roleplayer who doesn't like using a certain skill because it sounds odd is contributing to 15 other real live humans failure. Why should that be acceptable?

 

You are not elitist at all, you are a fine example of people who are serius about their gaming. Thus you would love and embrace the idea of an add - on enabled server that will coexist with the ''normal'' servers that we have right now...

[Ashphael]

Who are you to tell that Tank how to play? He's roleplaying and roleplayer's feel that abilities with cooldowns break immersion.

 

Or maybe he doesn't want to debate technicallities with you in a game. Like that he was saving the CDs for the boss' next special which he fears you couldn't heal him through.

 

What about great players, competitively raiding and all? Too distracted by their rotation to see if there was a robot flying past them at the boss or that that gravel hit the lifted add?

 

Look at it this way: There will be competitive raiding. Someone will kill a boss for the first time in the whole world. There will be raids not progressing as fast as they would if they were different raids with different raidmembers (read: if they kicked the slacker). And there will be raids with truly good members who talk, talk about their rotations, who are good enough to see what their teammates are doing.

 

If you're against slackers, I'm against slacker-raidleads who don't have a clue but think they don't have to have a clue since they have a DPS-meter.

 

You want to find out if the prospect for your raid is a slacker? Ask them about their rotation. If they answer back that they don't have any but that they follow this prio-list and that list is reasonable, they're not a slacker. But that would be hard work, it would mean actually talking to people, maybe getting to know them In an MMO, no less! What a horrible thought.

 

Edit: spelling

Edit 2: Raidleads who talk with prospects need to have a clue about the prospects' classes. Oh the horror!

Edited January 11, 2012 by Ashphael

[AlpsStranger]

Or maybe he doesn't want to debate technicallities with you in a game. Like that he was saving the CDs for the boss' next special which he fears you couldn't heal him through.

 

What about great players, competitively raiding and all? Too distracted by their rotation to see if there was a robot flying past them at the boss or that that gravel hit the lifted add?

 

Look at it this way: There will be competitive raiding. Someone will kill a boss for the first time in the whole world. There will be raids not progressing as fast as they would if they were different raids wiuth different raidmembers (read: if they kicked the slacker). And there will be rqaids with truly good members who talk, talk about their rotations, who are good enough to see what their teammates are doing.

 

If you're against slackers, I'm against slacker-raidleads who don't have a clue but think they don't have to have a clue since they have a DPS-meter.

 

You want to find out if the prospect for your raid is a slacker? Ask them about their rotation. If they answer back that they don't have any but that they follow this prio-list and that list is reasonable, they're not a slacker. But that would be hard work, it would mean actually talking to people, maybe getting to know them In an MMO, no less! What a horrible thought.

 

How do I "Actually talk" to someone who is actively attempting to slack and lie about it in a full raid?

 

Some ******** about trust and community right?

 

Right.

 

Thought so.

Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Kurnea]

Because we either won't be able to clear the boss with someone like this in our group, or the game will be so easy that it will be boring.

 

Second, what does $15 have to do with anything? This isn't a movie. If you suck you don't get to go all the way to the end. That's why it's called a game.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure in this game that if you eschew the hard modes you can pretty much see all the content and still suck.

 

But for the harder content yes, being able to see and parse everyone's combat logs would be helpful.

[dimster]

Because we either won't be able to clear the boss with someone like this in our group, or the game will be so easy that it will be boring.

 

Second, what does $15 have to do with anything? This isn't a movie. If you suck you don't get to go all the way to the end. That's why it's called a game.

 

And so you didn't clear the boss... and so you played for 3 hours but didn't get Loot... did you have fun doing it? Is the game fun? Is playing the game but with a chance to wipe not fun enough for you?

[AlpsStranger]

And so you didn't clear the boss... and so you played for 3 hours but didn't get Loot... did you have fun doing it?

 

I dunno, did we clear the boss?

 

Failure can be fun if it's a head-to-head style competition. I've had a blast losing in RTSs before. Failure is universally not fun in raiding/dungeoneering.

Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Drachii]

You do know that there are those of us who aren't the elite, top 100, etc. Are we mushrooms or something?

 

Pretty much - there's not mushroom in these 'discussions' for those of us who aren't firmly, fervently rooted in a specific camp. :X

[ironix]

Or maybe he doesn't want to debate technicallities with you in a game. Like that he was saving the CDs for the boss' next special which he fears you couldn't heal him through.

 

What about great players, competitively raiding and all? Too distracted by their rotation to see if there was a robot flying past them at the boss or that that gravel hit the lifted add?

 

Look at it this way: There will be competitive raiding. Someone will kill a boss for the first time in the whole world. There will be raids not progressing as fast as they would if they were different raids wiuth different raidmembers (read: if they kicked the slacker). And there will be rqaids with truly good members who talk, talk about their rotations, who are good enough to see what their teammates are doing.

 

If you're against slackers, I'm against slacker-raidleads who don't have a clue but think they don't have to have a clue since they have a DPS-meter.

 

You want to find out if the prospect for your raid is a slacker? Ask them about their rotation. If they answer back that they don't have any but that they follow this prio-list and that list is reasonable, they're not a slacker. But that would be hard work, it would mean actually talking to people, maybe getting to know them In an MMO, no less! What a horrible thought.

 

So, let me get this straight. Your argument against combat logs is to offload more work onto the raid leaders? Do you know much much work it can be leading a raid even with access to combat log data? It can burn you out!

 

Also, your argument about dps being too distracted by their rotation/meters falls flat. In a raid where your dps or healers are so idiotic that they spend most of their time staring at meters and/or having tunnel vision regarding their rotation, you're likely going to end up with dead dps. Dead dps is no dps. Additionally, if your raid is populated with such people, you're not likely going to get very far at all anyhow.

Edited January 11, 2012 by ironix

[Devorin_Sargothi]

I dunno, did we clear the boss?

 

Failure can be fun if it's a head-to-head style competition. I've had a blast losing in RTSs before. Failure is universally not fun in raiding/dungeoneering.

 

Other than Leroy Jenkins.

[Truga]

And so you didn't clear the boss... and so you played for 3 hours but didn't get Loot... did you have fun doing it? Is the game fun? Is playing the game but with a chance to wipe not fun enough for you?

 

Some people have way more fun when they're winning. Shocking, I know.

 

I personally don't even mind a fail once or twice a month that wouldn't happen if we had recount, but some people are here for the loot. Some people have fun collecting loot. They find their time better spent on getting said loot, rather than wiping. Who are we to judge them?

[AlpsStranger]

Who are we to judge them?

 

I've been judged, tried, executed and put on a pike in their minds. They are the mighty "Occupy SWTOR," defenders of the downtrodden!

Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Ashphael]

How do I "Actually talk" to someone who is actively attempting to slack and lie about it in a full raid?

 

In a PUG raid? Probably not at all. But I was talking about halfway decent progress raiding which in my experience mostly involves more or less stable groups, be they guild or more loosely formed. PUGs will rarely down bosses that not at least some of them downed before, maybe on a different char.

 

And if I asked you hov your sage is specced and what heals you use when and if and when you intersperse them with what damage casts and you are a slacker trying to lie to me, you'll not go unnoticed.

[dimster]

I dunno, did we clear the boss?

 

Failure can be fun if it's a head-to-head style competition. I've had a blast losing in RTSs before. Failure is universally not fun in raiding/dungeoneering.

 

Nope you didnt clear the boss, you just tried while playing with likeminded people that you like and consider ''friends''. Now if that activity does not work for you to provide fun and you need ''LOOT'' to compensate... see my point? I want a fun game... you want loot and a pat in the back...

[AlpsStranger]

Nope you didnt clear the boss, you just tried while playing with likeminded people that you like and consider ''friends''. Now if that activity does not work for you to provide fun and you need ''LOOT'' to compensate... see my point? I want a fun game... you want loot and a pat in the back...

 

I wouldn't know. My friends all quit a few hours ago when I showed them that Bioware was deciding to go along with this retarded private log business.

 

But thanks for trying to teach me how to have fun, o great and wise sage of nonsense.

Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[dimster]

Other than Leroy Jenkins.

 

Leroy got a gazzilion views on youtube for doing something whacky but funny... ill bet you that some guys in the raid where pissed but others where laughing their brains off... sounds like fun even tho they wiped... and didnt get loot

[zootzoot]

Nope you didnt clear the boss, you just tried while playing with likeminded people that you like and consider ''friends''. Now if that activity does not work for you to provide fun and you need ''LOOT'' to compensate... see my point? I want a fun game... you want loot and a pat in the back...

 

What does any of this have to do with Combat Logs? If you play in a weekend Softball League you keep stats on all the players. It helps to determine batting order etc. It's still a casual and fun past time but the metrics helps you win.

 

Why is winning and performing well as a team demonized?

[dimster]

I wouldn't know. My friends all quit a few hours ago when I showed them that Bioware was deciding to go along with this retarded private log business.

 

Omg they did? all of them? can i have their stuff now? and can you mail me their hardware too if i provide adress?

[AlpsStranger]

Leroy got a gazzilion views on youtube for doing something whacky but funny... ill bet you that some guys in the raid where pissed but others where laughing their brains off... sounds like fun even tho they wiped... and didnt get loot

 

First off, Leroy was obviously staged.

 

Second, I'd bet Leroy was actually a pretty good player.

[Yfelsung]

Other than Leroy Jenkins.

 

I thought everyone realized that video was fake.

 

A guild stood around calculating their chance of success and then one of them charges in?

 

Not real.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

So, let me get this straight. Your argument against combat logs is to offload more work onto the raid leaders? Do you know much much work it can be leading a raid even with access to combat log data? It can burn you out!

 

Also, your argument about dps being too distracted by their rotation/meters falls flat. In a raid where your dps or healers are so idiotic that they spend most of their time staring at meters and/or having tunnel vision regarding their rotation, you're likely going to end up with dead dps. Dead dps is no dps. Additionally, if your raid is populated with such people, you're not likely going to get very far at all anyhow.

 

I find if you can't do a rotation and aren't aware of your surroundings, it's because you haven't practiced. Whenever I had to learn one, I'd find a target dummy and try it out for a while to build up muscle memory. Then I'd try out a normal instance and see how well I could do it on real bosses. Eventually you don't think about the key, you just think about the powers.

[AlpsStranger]

Why is winning and performing well as a team demonized?

 

Because the Badshevik Revolution has begun...

[ironix]

Some people have way more fun when they're winning. Shocking, I know.

 

I personally don't even mind a fail once or twice a month that wouldn't happen if we had recount, but some people are here for the loot. Some people have fun collecting loot. They find their time better spent on getting said loot, rather than wiping. Who are we to judge them?

 

Earlier tonight I spent 4 awful hours healing hard mode Fallen Emperor for some other guild group (i.e. not my guild). I tend to be exceedingly stubborn and charitable when it comes to helping a group out, but this was just awful. I was doing everything I could to help this group, but it just wasn't working.

 

Honestly, it may have simply been one or two people in this group that were the reason behind why we were failing so badly. However, given the fact that I have no way of telling what the actual problem was without hard data, I decided to write off their entire guild. Yes, that's right, a lack of combat log data has put an entire guild on my "do not group with" list because it would be like playing the slots otherwise.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

I thought everyone realized that video was fake.

 

A guild stood around calculating their chance of success and then one of them charges in?

 

Not real.

 

But that doesn't make it less funny.

 

And you know you wanna type in G******IT JENKINS whenever someone screws up in some funny way.

 

That's what a meme is.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi

[MasterKayote]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

 

Right there at the bottom.

 

 

 

If you want to keep your combat log private, that's fine. I want the option to make mine public. I have nothing to hide. I want people to trust me, and combat logs give them the data to do so.

 

It's fine to feel a little put upon or even threatened by the criticism of others. People can be harsh. You paid your money, and you don't care to deal with criticism, that's fine.

 

But I'm the one paying MY money, and I insist on having hard data on what's going on in my group. I actively seek feedback from my teammates. If you're not interested in this kind of activity, we don't ever have to group, play, or even speak together.

 

I'm fine with that.

 

No, people are idiots, people are dbags specially when they remain anonymous, people have very subjective varying expectations of others ... for this reason alone I am completely for an optional and personal combat log. This has to be one of the very few posts by Georg where he actually makes sense and I completely agree with. Kudos to him and I hope they stick to their principles on this.

 

BTW, players have been raiding and kickin the games *** in the game already. Thats undeniable proof right there that a combat log is not needed (as if the countless other MMO's out there without one werent enough). The only arguments in support of the combat log and recount are the very reason a combat log should not be in the game; (sadly) people are just ACHING to start looking at others DPS and judge them for it. That negativity does not need to be brought into the game, we have enough of it already. Has nothing to do with whether or not I group up with you unless there is an unremovable name tag saying <DPS Judge> over your head at all times.

 

P.S: There will always be a chat going on in the game. Im sure you'll be more than able to tell your teamates your DPS as frequently and often as you'd like. If you or they have trust issues then ... well ... thats a completely separate problem you should take care of before you group up.