Private combat logs?

[AlpsStranger]

Is it your contention that dps meters don't make content easier?

 

I'm funding a study on the size of the average human ***** in the United States. I was going to have my staff use measuring tools, but I've decided to just ask everyone instead.

 

Should be fine, right?

 

It's my contention that you cannot answer this question without voiding huge parts of your argument.

[RealAeiouy]

People lie.

 

Not normally and not if you are not an accusatory jerk. You can actual find out the people who are not trying but that is part of the game and advancing your social skills. Most people actually want to do good.

 

That seems to be a problem for some. They think everyone is lying and slacking so they want to be able to accuse and attack with a dps meter. As someone with extensive experience in games without using meters I can tell you that is not normally the case.

 

The whole dps meter thing has created a hostile environment where people don't look to improve and work together when they fail but instead blame, accuse and boot.

 

Like I said most of these issues are easily managed socially.

[AlpsStranger]

Not normally and not if you are not an accusatory jerk. You can actual find out the people who are not trying but that is part of the game and advancing your social skills. Most people actually want to do good.

 

That seems to be a problem for some. They think everyone is lying and slacking so they want to be able to accuse and attack with a dps meter. As someone with extensive experience in games without using meters I can tell you that is not normally the case.

 

The whole dps meter thing has created a hostile environment where people don't look to improve and work together when they fail but instead blame, accuse and boot.

 

Like I said most of these issues are easily managed socially.

 

I'm funding a study on the size of the average human ***** in the United States. I was going to have my staff use measuring tools, but I've decided to just ask everyone instead.

 

Should be fine, right?

 

I'll just ask them their ***** size in a non-accusatory way. Saves a ton of money on research staff.

[Enderfalls]

I group with a static group of people and I am the healer. I find it terrible that should we wipe I can not parse through the log to figure out what damage was going where and how I as the healer can adapt to allow us to succeed.

 

Personal combat log will not help this. Why did the tank die? what ability caused him to spike? I have no idea since the damage was done to him and not me. So I have no idea how to adapt to it as the healer.

 

 

I understand some people don't want their information shown to everyone, however not being able to parse through the combat log and see what is hitting who is hindering my personal game play. Having incoming damage shown to everyone has no bearing on your performance as a player and should be shown.

[Aryzyra]

You are supposed to be working as a team to overcome content not being Johnny Solo in raids trying to show everyone how awesome you are. You want to be the point guard who jacks up 25 shots a night and doesn't care about winning, just getting your stats.

 

I don't see why that mentality should drive game development.

 

A combat parser will also show who interrupted abilities, who took avoidable damage, etc.

 

Opponents of parsing seem to be taking a laser-beam focus at "some dude paying no attention to anything but a damage meter". While those people may exist, so do at least as many people who will aoe cc'd mobs without a damage meter.

[RealAeiouy]

?????

 

It is pretty clear you are terrified about having to have normal social skills in game.

 

Please explain why you think the average person would lie? Like I said I have a ton of experience playing without parsers so I know the truth. You are projecting your own willingness to lie there onto others.

 

Again if you work with others you will get good results. If you do an encounter and are clueless as to what to do without a dps meter you need to work on becoming better. That should be a core part of the game.

 

You can keep quoting your dumb post but my real experience trumps your irrational fear.

[zootzoot]

nothing that makes the game substantially easier can be considered optional.

 

They can make elite level raid gear drop from solo quests and then raiders can do their thing to get it and solo players their own thing. See it doesn't work.

 

Dps meters makes content easier and also has a large negative impact on class balance.

 

lolololololololol

[AlpsStranger]

It is pretty clear you are terrified about having to have normal social skills in game.

 

Right. That's completely true.

 

Please explain why you think the average person would lie?

 

Are you serious?

 

Okay, everyone is really irritated because we all just wiped to an enrage timer the fourth time in a row.

 

 

Like I said I have a ton of experience playing without parsers so I know the truth. You are projecting your own willingness to lie there onto others.

 

How about you quit playing head doc and answer the question?

 

Again if you work with others you will get good results. If you do an encounter and are clueless as to what to do without a dps meter you need to work on becoming better. That should be a core part of the game.

 

Ok, so I'll ask what that other dude asked earlier: Which killed the tank, the red laser or the green smoke?

 

You can keep quoting your dumb post but my real experience trumps your irrational fear.

 

So tell me, why should I spend money on staff to measure the *****es instead of just asking their owners? Obviously, normal people wouldn't lie about something like that.

Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[RealAeiouy]

How is the content more challenging for the group without the meter? Does having a dps meter/combat log change the amount of damage the boss deals, how much I heal for, how much damage the tank receives, how much damage I deal?

 

If you response is: "you can see all of that without the combat log/dps meter" why would it matter if I have one then? Does the content become easier if I place my health bar in the top right of the screen instead of the bottom middle?

 

 

"Then why don't you just die?

 

Because it makes no difference."

 

Because it takes more skill and ability to know what is going on and coordinating efforts than just looking at a meter and say x do 1, y do 2 and z do 3, it takes more familiarity and understanding of the game. If it didn't why would anyone need a parser to overcome content?

[NuanceNW]

A guy was complaining about not having a LFG auto form group option in general chat last night. I responded that he might join a guild or make friends as an alternative. The chat became lively and the person finally admitted that he liked to solo and didn't have friends or a guild. What he wanted was a means to play without being social and the general chat agreed that making friends in game was a better alternative.

 

I believe the same response applies here. If you want to ensure that someone is pulling their weight then work with them, guild them, friend them and go do flashpoints and help them improve their play style. If you want to ensure that you're run goes well, then join a guild and play with guildies, you will learn their weaknesses, you can help them improve their play and you won't need to use general chat to ask for members to join your run. Those options are already in game, no tools or logs needed.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

It is pretty clear you are terrified about having to have normal social skills in game.

 

Please explain why you think the average person would lie? Like I said I have a ton of experience playing without parsers so I know the truth. You are projecting your own willingness to lie there onto others.

 

Again if you work with others you will get good results. If you do an encounter and are clueless as to what to do without a dps meter you need to work on becoming better. That should be a core part of the game.

 

You can keep quoting your dumb post but my real experience trumps your irrational fear.

 

Well, I imagine they would benefit from the lying, and never be caught.

 

If you can't see a person's combat log, you have to take their word for it. I doubt very much anyone is going to admit they are terrible. They would continue to stink up the place, perhaps never even knowing they were screwing up.

 

I'd hate to think I was doing badly and nobody would say anything.

[AlpsStranger]

Because it takes more skill and ability to know what is going on and coordinating efforts than just looking at a meter and say x do 1, y do 2 and z do 3, it takes more familiarity and understanding of the game. If it didn't why would anyone need a parser to overcome content?

 

Irrelevant. The private meter already allows rotation optimization just as readily as a public meter. The difference we are discussing is strictly between a private and public meter.

 

So how does a public meter, as opposed to a personal meter, make the game easier?

 

Answer: It *********** doesn't. It just lets poor DPS hide.

 

WE ARE DISCUSSING THE DIFFERENCE IN A PRIVATE AND A PUBLIC METER. YOU KEEP ARGUING FOR NO METERS, BUT *NO METERS* IS NOT PART OF THIS DISCUSSION.

Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Aryzyra]

Because it takes more skill and ability to know what is going on and coordinating efforts than just looking at a meter and say x do 1, y do 2 and z do 3, it takes more familiarity and understanding of the game. If it didn't why would anyone need a parser to overcome content?

 

Given equal game knowledge and in-play powers of observation, a group with a combat log will be able to identify and resolve issues much more quickly and efficiently.

 

It's more difficult without the combat log, simply because you can't effectively isolate issues and evaluate appropriate responses.

[RealAeiouy]

I'll just ask them their ***** size in a non-accusatory way. Saves a ton of money on research staff.

 

I have already answered you horrible analogy multiple times.

 

Tell me why most people in an mmorpg who want to be successful would lie to someone they were working with and being polite.

 

That has no relation to your survey analogy and once again I have real experience with this and you do not. So please explain how the average person is going to lie about this.

 

You are not even correct on the member size study as in a properly conducted survey most people would not and do not lie. Once again you project your poor social skills on everyone else and use that as justification, it is not.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

A guy was complaining about not having a LFG auto form group option in general chat last night. I responded that he might join a guild or make friends as an alternative. The chat became lively and the person finally admitted that he liked to solo and didn't have friends or a guild. What he wanted was a means to play without being social and the general chat agreed that making friends in game was a better alternative.

 

I believe the same response applies here. If you want to ensure that someone is pulling their weight then work with them, guild them, friend them and go do flashpoints and help them improve their play style. If you want to ensure that you're run goes well, then join a guild and play with guildies, you will learn their weaknesses, you can help them improve their play and you won't need to use general chat to ask for members to join your run. Those options are already in game, no tools or logs needed.

 

Look, not everybody is looking for a long term relationship. Maybe in the future, if they found the right group, sure. But in the mean time the guy just wants to hook up for some good times in a flashpoint. Parsing another player's combat log is simply the responsible thing to do. You've got to protect yourself from smooth-talking bad players out there.

[AlpsStranger]

You are not even correct on the member size study as in a properly conducted survey most people would not and do not lie. Once again you project your poor social skills on everyone else and use that as justification, it is not.

 

The problem here is what has become known as "self-reportage bias." Even when assured that the results are completely anonymous, guys tend to exaggerate. You'd think it would be the opposite. That they'd deliberately underestimate the size of their *****es in order to skew down the average size to which they would then compare themselves more favorably. Self-reportage bias is a real phenomenon and has been observed in numerous surveys on everything from drinking habits to stated income. In fact, a whole school of statistical analysis has developed on how to adjust for this bias.

 

http://www.alt*****.com/news/average_size.shtml

 

The fact that you're naive enough to think that people don't lie about the size of their *****es is about all that needs to be said about your argument.

 

Keep insulting my social skills though. Having to resort to that makes your argument work somehow I'm sure.

Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Tahana]

WE ARE DISCUSSING THE DIFFERENCE IN A PRIVATE AND A PUBLIC METER. YOU KEEP ARGUING FOR NO METERS, BUT *NO METERS* IS NOT PART OF THIS DISCUSSION.

 

Ok I'm going to be devils advocate here and ask you a question..

 

You and I both work for the same company.. We started working their the same day, and we perform the same exact job. Do you have a right to look at my paycheck? My paycheck is ultimately the numerical value for my job performance. Do you have a right to that information.

 

If you can answer that with any semblance of a justifiable reason why someone that works in the same position as I do, has a right to that information you will get my 100% support. Again as I stated before, I'm not per say against meters.. I use them in other games.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Tahana

[Devorin_Sargothi]

Ok I'm going to be devils advocate here and ask you a question..

 

You and I both work for the same company.. We started working their the same day, and we perform the same exact job. Do you have a right to look at my paycheck? My paycheck is ultimately the numerical value for my job performance. Do you have a right to that information.

 

If you can answer that with any semblance of a justifiable reason why someone that works in the same position as I do, has a right to that information you will get my 100% support.

 

Are you sharing an apartment?

 

Cuz you better have your half of the rent.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi

[AlpsStranger]

Tell me why most people in an mmorpg who want to be successful would lie to someone they were working with and being polite.

 

1) They're using a really terrible build because they like it for a non min/max reason.

2) They're not really paying much attention but don't want to be called on it. They figure they'll lay low and eventually the rest of the group will manage to carry them.

3) The raid leader is really angry when asking them.

[Tahana]

Are you sharing an apartment?

 

Irrelevant.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

Irrelevant.

 

Come rent day if you're short it'll be highly relevant.

[Amiracle]

I find it funny that the hardcore are the ones pugging with all the so called bad players.

 

Its even more funny that they need 3rd party software to make sure they are hitting the keys in the order that they read on the net.

 

 

1121112111311121.....

Raid Leader: Hey Johnny, I noticed you were off 1/10 of a point there.

Johnny: One sec, let me check th logs. Doh...I hit 3 instead of 2....

[AlpsStranger]

Ok I'm going to be devils advocate here and ask you a question..

 

You and I both work for the same company.. We started working their the same day, and we perform the same exact job. Do you have a right to look at my paycheck? My paycheck is ultimately the numerical value for my job performance. Do you have a right to that information.

 

If you can answer that with any semblance of a justifiable reason why someone that works in the same position as I do, has a right to that information you will get my 100% support. Again as I stated before, I'm not per say against meters.. I use them in other games.

 

No, but the size of your check doesn't directly impact my ability to earn a living. If we're dual proprietors I'd have the right, and the legal ability, to know how much you were paying yourself.

[spira_bahamut]

A guy was complaining about not having a LFG auto form group option in general chat last night. I responded that he might join a guild or make friends as an alternative. The chat became lively and the person finally admitted that he liked to solo and didn't have friends or a guild. What he wanted was a means to play without being social and the general chat agreed that making friends in game was a better alternative.

 

I believe the same response applies here. If you want to ensure that someone is pulling their weight then work with them, guild them, friend them and go do flashpoints and help them improve their play style. If you want to ensure that you're run goes well, then join a guild and play with guildies, you will learn their weaknesses, you can help them improve their play and you won't need to use general chat to ask for members to join your run. Those options are already in game, no tools or logs needed.

 

Agree 100% with this. This game isn't Wow. If you want a DPS meter go back to wow. If you want a LFG mecanic go back to wow. I currently hold a subscription to both games, both have there advantages. I don't think this game needs either of those to be a successful long running MMO. Some people may think they are "out of content" or frustrated but personally I'm gonna be happy just getting through all 8 unique storylines. (something I wager will take me 8 months)

[Tahana]

No, but the size of your check doesn't directly impact my ability to earn a living. If we're dual proprietors I'd have the right, and the legal ability, to know how much you were paying yourself.

 

In this game you'll never be a dual proprietor to another player. IRL I own a company with two other people. I have the legal right to know what everyone makes. My employees have no right to know what another employee makes. In fact we have gone so far to make it a company policy that discussion of what one makes with another employee is cause for release.

 

In my example do you have a right to know what I make when we work the exact same job for the exact same company. No you don't. You have absolutely no right to know that information, and ultimately that is what you are asking for in this game.

 

The developers decided that they will go so far as to let you know your own paycheck total. You are going to have to either 1) be satisfied with that and use that to make sure your at the top of your game 2) take your marbles and leave like you said you are going to do 3) submit a request to the development team as to why you should have access to someone elses information. They have their own reasons for doing this, and I sincerely doubt that what you are doing in this or other threads are going to change their minds. It has already been said before during beta. They even had a poll asking people how they felt. Unfortunately those boards were wiped on release.

 

Personally I don't see an issue with meters.. I use them for my own improvement at times. However I have seen my fair share of little e-peening punks who would stop and post numbers and slow a run down so they could stroke their self importance.. My main is a healer so ultimately I could give a rip what someone's dps numbers are.. I am more concerned if you stay out of the big red circles on the ground, or if the tank can take the lead out of his rear and actually face a mob away from the group so we don't take cleave damage. As a healer now I can tell when someone is in the wrong spot and taking damage that they shouldn't be taking.. I don't need a meter to let me know.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Tahana