Private combat logs?

[Devorin_Sargothi]

No, I'm not playing the emotional card...my wife was just part of the example. This also leads to another reason why people do not like to give anecdotal evidence, because all arguments turn to the specifics of the incident instead of the topic at hand.

 

I'm not saying that the whole group should suffer, exactly the opposite. We should have continued to work together to figure out the problem. That would have been way more beneficial in the end. Instead of making it a bad experience for players by booting them for some arbitrary reason.

 

If we did not succeed, at least we would have given it a valiant effort and would have been able to do better the next time. But they took the easy route and the route that was more destructive on the overall community.

 

Just because the boss doesn't die, doesn't mean you failed. The game is a lot more than just killing animated toons, it's about social interaction as well.

 

Well I don't think you can tie with a boss, and you only win if the boss dies, so that just leaves the one option.

 

Hard numbers are the building blocks of the knowledge base for an mmo. From them, we calculate everything we really know about the game. This is where our forum guides and cookie cutter builds come from. This is how we learn about gearing and stat benefits. This is how we find bugged abilities.

 

Without it, we are in the dark.

[Vydor_HC]

I'm all for giving advice, a lot of the time though, people just take offence no matter how nicely you word it, other times its just not applicable and no matter how hard you try you can't get the person up to the level they need to be to o the content without them habving time to practice/grind more gear/respec.

 

In that case 7 other people shouldn't have to continually fail and waste hours of time when there is no hope, just to save someones feelings.

 

-nods-

 

I agree with you that there are those that can use it beneficially.

 

But like I said earlier, the game is about more than just defeating the end boss. Just because he doesn't die doesn't mean hours were wasted. The game is more complex than that.

[uniz]

i agree a combat log would be nice to have if:

 

1) it remanins private and cant be shared EVER (non linkable)

 

2) a dps meter cant EVER be made from it

 

if the conditions cant be met then please just dont implement one. a dps meter has ruined several mmo's from those that are terrible players thinking they are elite.

 

these players hide behind the cloak of not wanting lesser players in their group with a meter to determine such through a fixed number they made up. however all they want is to constantly flash in group the dps meter when they are on top. usually it stops when they are no longer on top and realize he isnt as good as he thought he was.

 

however i really doubt a private log will ever happened and all of our rants will be in vain. it doesnt matter. i know how to deal with all the reprocussions from such now. some of you will be surprised that asking for what you want isnt the best thing for you.

[Jett-Rinn]

Nah, I'm quitting the genre altogether. FarmVille3D isn't my thing.

 

I can do roleplaying with dice and sheets, and I can do immersion and adventure in something like Skyrim. MMORPGs are a wildly improper medium for these things. Apparently they've decided it's time to stop doing what they're good at and make twisted mockeries of other things.

 

I disagree; Raiding was created by bored players in EQ who Mass attacked Bosses that were not suppose to be Challenged for a couple years by smaller groups. I think MMO's are returning to their original intent of Online versions of D&D (Which is really how I feel when I am playing with three other mates in a Flashpoint) that have more in common with the Table top games than the Slide-Rule fest that was really never intended in the first place.

[Carnerous]

The only reason that is is because players started playing that way. You can treat D&D the same way, but you'd be shunned by everyone. You could bring out spreadsheets, calculations, and min/maxing to every gaming genre. The WoWtards are the only one's who popularized it so far.

 

Hardcore raiders (and their inccessant whining on every forum) are the ones to blame for the downfall of sandbox type games. The need for structured gameplay that you can beat by reading a wiki, looking at a dps meter, and all for a shiny purple word is what killed the sandbox.

 

Companies saw how well WoW did/does and want a peice of the pie. For some reason they think that the vocal minority on the forums are the ones that are making blizzard money. Yes, they think the 5% of players that saw Naxx are the key to making money.

 

Self-proclaimed hardcore raiders (and PvPers) are the least loyal costumers and they cost the most to keep around. Doing anything for them is a horrible investment of time and money. They're just going to complain anyway or want stuff so against the majority that if you follow through it will alienate the vast majority of the subscribers. (Think original Naxx and Arenas)

 

So before you keep posting this drivel about MMORPGS being a bastardization of RPGs realize that this game, the one you're paying to play right now, has attempted to put the RPG back in. It's basically Knights of the Old Republic - Multiplayer mode. And KotOR is one of the great RPGs.

 

It's the baddies (hardcores) from WoW that are trying to turn it into a bastardization of a RPG, not the other way around.

 

so with other words you are just a random hater

 

*wow has it, so it must be bad*

[Vydor_HC]

Well I don't think you can tie with a boss, and you only win if the boss dies, so that just leaves the one option.

 

Hard numbers are the building blocks of the knowledge base for an mmo. From them, we calculate everything we really know about the game. This is where our forum guides and cookie cutter builds come from. This is how we learn about gearing and stat benefits. This is how we find bugged abilities.

 

Without it, we are in the dark.

 

Being in the dark isn't a bad thing. Figuring out the encounters without trivializing them due to knowing too much information can be quite an accomplishment. The tool definitely is not needed, it's nice to have.

 

We see the game differently in that regard. I respect your desire to have the tool, I just have a different opinion on the matter and would prefer not to see one.

[Aeywyn]

Could not agree more. In some cases you can say 'yo, I'm a marauder too, are you dropping this before this and switching over to this when this is on CD?'. If you get a reasonable person in a flashpoint, all is grand, they change, improve you down it.

 

If however you are in a hard mode where getting them to change up their rotation wont do jack without the gear and experience to back it up. Or its someone who irrationally flys of the handle and cappslocks "ITS JUST A GAME< DONT TELL ME HOW TO PLAY!", then unfortunately, if you want to progress, the person will need to leave the group untill they are capable of the content.

 

 

If you are trying to pug a hardmode the problem is not people wanting to avoid criticism. It's actually that you either dont want to join a guild, or nobody who is capable of the content wants you to join them, for whatever reason.

 

The MMO part of this game requires stable social groups to work together to beat the hardest content. If people refuse to talk to each other and therefore rely on PUGS... well it is isnt really the fault of the game.

[ironix]

so with other words you are just a random hater

 

*wow has it, so it must be bad*

 

That's the general consensus on these forums.

 

I wonder why this argument isn't called out by even the side they purport to represent? After all, I still play WoW, there must be others who play even if they don't support damage meters and whatnot. How do these people feel about constantly being characterized as a 'wowtard'?

[CaptainHagbard]

Georg Zoeller stated in an interview (some Norwegian pocast, google it, if you like) that the reason, why we don't have combat-logs right now is, hat the combat-log way too messy and causes more trouble than it's worth. This is mainly due to the fact that we fight roughly three times the enemies we fight in other MMOs, so if the combat-log is displayed for yourself and all the players around you, it tends to generate a heap of information, that can't be properly processed in the short time a fight lasts.

 

So in that respect, I suppose the personal combat-log is all we will get, but I'm fine with that. I want to see my information and work on my personal game, that's all I ever used it for in other games, too.

[Jett-Rinn]

The only reason that is is because players started playing that way. You can treat D&D the same way, but you'd be shunned by everyone. You could bring out spreadsheets, calculations, and min/maxing to every gaming genre. The WoWtards are the only one's who popularized it so far.

 

Hardcore raiders (and their inccessant whining on every forum) are the ones to blame for the downfall of sandbox type games. The need for structured gameplay that you can beat by reading a wiki, looking at a dps meter, and all for a shiny purple word is what killed the sandbox.

 

Companies saw how well WoW did/does and want a peice of the pie. For some reason they think that the vocal minority on the forums are the ones that are making blizzard money. Yes, they think the 5% of players that saw Naxx are the key to making money.

 

Self-proclaimed hardcore raiders (and PvPers) are the least loyal costumers and they cost the most to keep around. Doing anything for them is a horrible investment of time and money. They're just going to complain anyway or want stuff so against the majority that if you follow through it will alienate the vast majority of the subscribers. (Think original Naxx and Arenas)

 

So before you keep posting this drivel about MMORPGS being a bastardization of RPGs realize that this game, the one you're paying to play right now, has attempted to put the RPG back in. It's basically Knights of the Old Republic - Multiplayer mode. And KotOR is one of the great RPGs.

 

It's the baddies (hardcores) from WoW that are trying to turn it into a bastardization of a RPG, not the other way around.

 

 

Excellent points and very true.

 

And what a lot of the Hard-core players fail to understand is TOR is not the only MMO heading down this path; I think Raiders are in for a huge surprise when MOP launches and we all see what RIFT is doing....If they think they are going to find a home on TSW guess again.

 

It's simple people want more substance than just There is this evil thing surrounded by trash mobs that gives us loot.

 

So far I have converted three hard-core raiders who can't imagine going back to WoW and every time I log on to Argent Dawn Stormwind and Ogrmar looks more and more empty and I am seeing more and more folks playing TOR.

 

I think that pretty much tells us which way the wind is blowing...Now Bioware you can start on that Dragon Age MMO any time now.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

Georg Zoeller stated in an interview (some Norwegian pocast, google it, if you like) that the reason, why we don't have combat-logs right now is, hat the combat-log way too messy and causes more trouble than it's worth. This is mainly due to the fact that we fight roughly three times the enemies we fight in other MMOs, so if the combat-log is displayed for yourself and all the players around you, it tends to generate a heap of information, that can't be properly processed in the short time a fight lasts.

 

So in that respect, I suppose the personal combat-log is all we will get, but I'm fine with that. I want to see my information and work on my personal game, that's all I ever used it for in other games, too.

 

If only we had some powerful computing machines that could crunch number for us quickly, and display them graphicly. Perhaps one day, such a device will be invented.

[Vydor_HC]

Georg Zoeller stated in an interview (some Norwegian pocast, google it, if you like) that the reason, why we don't have combat-logs right now is, hat the combat-log way too messy and causes more trouble than it's worth. This is mainly due to the fact that we fight roughly three times the enemies we fight in other MMOs, so if the combat-log is displayed for yourself and all the players around you, it tends to generate a heap of information, that can't be properly processed in the short time a fight lasts.

 

So in that respect, I suppose the personal combat-log is all we will get, but I'm fine with that. I want to see my information and work on my personal game, that's all I ever used it for in other games, too.

 

I was thinking this is the case as well, I haven't read anything from him on the issue, but I imagine they really don't want any more performance hits at the moment.

[Carnerous]

I was thinking this is the case as well, I haven't read anything from him on the issue, but I imagine they really don't want any more performance hits at the moment.

 

i thought people with performance issues are the minority?

[DarthKhaos]

So the Tank dies and unless he tells me I can't see that he didn't use his CD's? Yeah that's great.

If the Tank needs to use his 2 & 3min CDs to tank... Something is wrong other than him/her using his CDs.

[Vydor_HC]

i thought people with performance issues are the minority?

 

hehe, touche`

[Kesitah]

I will be honest. I don't want a public combat log because my dps is awful.I have played WoW for years and was lucky if I could get in the top half of a dps chart. It made raiding a lot more difficult when groups would often kick me after the first or second boss. I really hope Bioware doesn't institute public combat logs because it will significantly hurt my chances of successful raiding.

 

This is not the correct consequence. If you play poorly and know it it will destroy the fun of it, meter or not. A better consequence would be asking an expert for hints (best one of the not "total elite" guilds, a good choice often are those people organizing random raids, some of them actually enjoy explaining things to people).

[AlpsStranger]

Excellent points and very true.

 

And what a lot of the Hard-core players fail to understand is TOR is not the only MMO heading down this path; I think Raiders are in for a huge surprise when MOP launches and we all see what RIFT is doing....If they think they are going to find a home on TSW guess again.

 

It's simple people want more substance than just There is this evil thing surrounded by trash mobs that gives us loot.

 

So far I have converted three hard-core raiders who can't imagine going back to WoW and every time I log on to Argent Dawn Stormwind and Ogrmar looks more and more empty and I am seeing more and more folks playing TOR.

 

I think that pretty much tells us which way the wind is blowing...Now Bioware you can start on that Dragon Age MMO any time now.

 

Right, FarmVille3D just like I said.

 

They're going to remove even the remotest chance that someone can outperform someone else. How will this be different from a prettier( and hopefully less perverted ) Second Life?

[Devorin_Sargothi]

This is not the correct consequence. If you play poorly and know it it will destroy the fun of it, meter or not. A better consequence would be asking an expert for hints (best one of the not "total elite" guilds, a good choice often are those people organizing random raids, some of them actually enjoy explaining things to people).

 

Man, you can keep all the loot and the titles. Watching some newb you taught finally output respectable dps, seeing him cc one mob and kite another on some complicated boss. Stuff like this is what I call community building, and it's what I live for.

 

No amount of good vibes in a casual guild can match the warm fuzzies from seeing the new player down his first raid boss.

[MasterKayote]

please tell me how you know your dps was fine and you were not carried by 3 other persons?

 

Is that your attempt to somehow goad me into admitting my previous use of a meter? What? To twist words to show that im just some hypocrite who actually found use in the tool?

 

I used recount ... for personal use. Did not care what anyone else did, same as ill be doing here. Personal use. I did it for me and not once did I ever go PMS to some random dude for "omg im carrying you, scrub, pick it up or im kicking you." As a matter of fact, NOT ONCE, have I seen it help with any of the scenario's you keep bringing up. Thats a blanket excuse used to cover up your need to police, control, and scold anyone who doesnt follow your expectations. That way you can just sit back, follow the spec/rotations you got off some site and not have to lift a finger (other than to point it at someone) above and beyond to help the team.

 

I never said the tool doesnt have its positive uses. I said, since they are NOT NEEDED, the negatives (which are FAR higher than you make them out by dismissing and only focusing on 'but the interrupts') far outweigh the unnecessary CONVENIENCE of using them. The game is doing fine without them, as did a multitude of previous MMO's before. 50s are getting through the content without even knowing their own DPS, no one is getting belittled or yelled at because he didnt meet someone elses standards, people are working with what they got and becoming better team players because of it. Im noticing more often that when a pug wipes its more "ok, lets try this" rather than "omg! you suck! pick up your ******* DPS /votekick." Or worse "im tired of carrying you scrub!" even when the run is doing just fine ... thats worth WAY more than any unnecessary knowledge of "who missed the interrupt."

 

That goes double when you acknowledge the fact that they plan on allowing players to see their own information, which is a great compromise.

[StealthLightning]

Not to sound elitist, but as long as enrage timers exist, you are hurting not only yours, but 7/15 other people's chances of successfully raiding. Its possible you'll be grouped with superstar dps that makes up for your damage, but my understanding is anything beyond normal mode has very tight enrage timers. People don't boot people for low dps just because they like being jerks (well not most people) they do it because everyone has to do their job or bosses don't die.

 

Not the worst thing in the world, but if Bioware wants to go down this path I think it would be best if they found a better mechanic than enrage timers.

 

Oh I know I am hurting my groups chance of success, but I don't have any other way to experience the content. Eventually i run into a group that can carry me.

[CaptainHagbard]

Right, FarmVille3D just like I said.

 

They're going to remove even the remotest chance that someone can outperform someone else. How will this be different from a prettier( and hopefully less perverted ) Second Life?

 

When you put your main or only focus on "outperfoming" other players in a co-operative game (I'm talking about PvE here), you've somewhat not gotten the meaning of teamplay.

 

This is a RPG. So the game's focus is not getting the highscore, but experiencing adventures in a fictional world, while facing one or another challenge. The challenge doesn't need to come from trying to be on top of a spreadsheet, it can just be the collective effort of defeating a difficult opponent without too much help from outside.

Edited January 11, 2012 by CaptainHagbard

[scubamonk]

If the Tank needs to use his 2 & 3min CDs to tank... Something is wrong other than him/her using his CDs.

 

If the tank doesn't need to use his 2 and 3 minute cds to tank raid bosses the game needs tuning. Those cooldowns are there for a reason, whats the point if you don't need them?

[TItanten]

Right, FarmVille3D just like I said.

 

They're going to remove even the remotest chance that someone can outperform someone else. How will this be different from a prettier( and hopefully less perverted ) Second Life?

 

When you care less about outperforming someone else and more about having fun with a group of people it makes a game bad?

 

So D&D is basically Second Life where you have to roll dice instead of being on a computer?

 

What about an MMO necessitates that each person has to perform at their optimum? If stuff still dies and people had fun, who cares that I beat you in DPS?

 

I used to tank (and solo) Krayts in Pre-CU SWG with an Armorsmith/Heavy Swordsman/Medic. Could have I done it faster with a Teras Kasi/MBrawler background? sure, but they still died just the same.

 

I was in the server first raids in Rift and was the only T2 healing Chloro on my server (no one else thought it was possible at the time) and guess what? We had fun. Before they even had parsers we knew (just as Knights here know) that pyromancer dps sucked. Stuff wouldn't die.

 

WoW is the only game I know of that places so much importance on your DPS and addons. The addiction level is high, but the fun level is low. The community sucks. Epeens are massive and stroked often. People rush through stuff with no other goal in mind than a new purple name with 1% better stats. And this is a good thing?

[DarthKhaos]

Man, you can keep all the loot and the titles. Watching some newb you taught finally output respectable dps, seeing him cc one mob and kite another on some complicated boss. Stuff like this is what I call community building, and it's what I live for.

 

No amount of good vibes in a casual guild can match the warm fuzzies from seeing the new player down his first raid boss.

 

Well said. Too many people make a huge fuss with new players. Granted there is a point where you just have to say sorry dude but you got to go but a lot of people don't bother trying with less experienced players.

 

I got people on my friends list who worships me because I took some time to explain some stuff about not just the game but their class to help them in future content.

 

I now have another minion who will ALWAYS heal for me if I ask because I took the time to not be an *****.

 

 

If the tank doesn't need to use his 2 and 3 minute cds to tank raid bosses the game needs tuning. Those cooldowns are there for a reason, whats the point if you don't need them?

For when stuff hits the fan. It's meant to be used in cases of emergencies. If I HAVE to use my Shield as a tank or my self heal then

• My gear sucks and I am taking too much dmg. No amount of CDs is gonna help that.
  
• The healer either isn't healing me well enough because he's not doing his job well, has to heal dps who likes to stand in the fire or too busy running from adds that I the tank or dps is supposed to deal with.
  

Edited January 11, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Devorin_Sargothi]

When you put your main or only focus on "outperfoming" other players in a co-operative game (I'm talking about PvE here), you've somewhat not gotten the meaning of teamplay.

 

This is a RPG. So the game's focus is not getting the highscore, but experiencing adventures in a fictional world, while facing one or another challenge. The challenge doesn't need to come from trying to be on top of a spreadsheet, it can just be the collective effort of defeating a difficult opponent without too much help from outside.

 

You've never heard of friendly rivalry?

 

If you don't care for spreadsheets, take my advice and avoid the backs of baseball cards. Failing that, try not to compare bating averages of players on the same team. Nobody likes baseball anyway, right?