RealAeiouy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Competitive guilds will leave in droves if there is not combat log soon and Causual Joe will be left. For now. Bioware doesn't need to release new content if all Causual Joe does is BT HM at most. And those casual joes will do all the content without dps meters making a mockery of the "hardcore" raiders who left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Who defines adequate? 98% of the people who make those kinds of judgements are not doing so from knowledge and understanding they are doing it because someone else told them that was what adequate is. Inevitably you often end up with people who are doing fine being chastised. It is not always the lowest dps on the list who needs to make the most improvement. Almost everyone making those decisions don't know enough to make them properly so instead of people getting better at the game people just play the most overpowered dps classes. That is not good gameplay and it is horrible leadership. Rule of thumb? You need to be out-damaging the tank, and doing your crowd control. Then you compare your output to that of other dps characters, especially your own class. If you can keep up with them, you're probably okay. Of course the best way to gather all this data is with a parsed combat log! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubamonk Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 And those casual joes will do all the content without dps meters making a mockery of the "hardcore" raiders who left. And good for them, they'll get to have fun on a level they enjoy. Combat logs being private/public should be optional. Your casual joes can have a blast doing content they are able to do with no hassle, and your min/maxers can turn theirs public and analyze their spreadsheets until the cows come home. Everybody wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I actually don't "hate casuals." I just hate the way a certain extreme subset of them is intent on forcing us to play with a clunky UI and next to no hard data. All these casuals are apparently better at mmogs than you because they don't require training wheels to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Good players don't need dps meters to do content. How do you know you're a good dpser without measuring? Edited January 11, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 All these casuals are apparently better at mmogs than you because they don't require training wheels to play. Yep, training wheels. *yawn* Got any more personal attacks? Come on, we've still got a long way to go before page 128, I'm sure you can fit them all in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Private combat logs would be terrible. As much as Bioware would like to protect as many feelings as possible, I would very much like to know who is missing the interrupts on the boss that keeps wiping us. Why not talk to the people you play with or is that too hard too? Have most of you never played an mmog without a live combat parser? Part of the game should be teamwork and communication. Seems too many people use parsers as a replacement for improving social skills. You don't really deserve to beat content if you all can not collectively handle interrupts without a log parser. Talk about the dumbing down of mmogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 All these casuals are apparently better at mmogs than you because they don't require training wheels to play. You don't need training wheels? You've never had a higher level player run you through content? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthLightning Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Why not talk to the people you play with or is that too hard too? Have most of you never played an mmog without a live combat parser? Part of the game should be teamwork and communication. Seems too many people use parsers as a replacement for improving social skills. You don't really deserve to beat content if you all can not collectively handle interrupts without a log parser. Talk about the dumbing down of mmogs. People lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Why not talk to the people you play with or is that too hard too? Have most of you never played an mmog without a live combat parser? Part of the game should be teamwork and communication. Seems too many people use parsers as a replacement for improving social skills. I'm funding a study on the size of the average human ***** in the United States. I was going to have my staff use measuring tools, but I've decided to just ask everyone instead. Should be fine, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 All these casuals are apparently better at mmogs than you because they don't require training wheels to play. Yep, content always has and always will be conquerable without the use of parsers. People want the easy road to accomplishing the hard things, then claim they are "good" players. Then turn around to use the parsers as a crugel to wreak havoc on the "miscreants" that do not meet up to some arbitrary standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHagbard Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The whole number-crunching is taking a big chunk out of the overall enjoyment of the game. You know, it's okay to have tools to review your performance and see what you can do better next time. AFTER the battle. But a live-update on how the damage is distributed right now, boils the game down to running a max-damage rotation and can also lead to wipes, when players want to be on top of the spreadsheet and neglect basic movement rules and threat-control. Also: Of course there is a lot of stats around, when it comes to sports, but again, this is only for review-puropses. You won't find Aaron Rodgers (or any other QB) calculating the wind and the average thorwing-power of his arm before a passing-game. He decides in the few seconds after the snap what he does, even if the basic play is set by the playbook. In that particular second, statistics don't matter at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Why not talk to the people you play with or is that too hard too? Have most of you never played an mmog without a live combat parser? Part of the game should be teamwork and communication. Seems too many people use parsers as a replacement for improving social skills. You don't really deserve to beat content if you all can not collectively handle interrupts without a log parser. Talk about the dumbing down of mmogs. Deserves? Either all four of you do the job sufficiently or you wipe. It's a bit more mechanical than merit-based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glowrod Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 In that OTHER game, I played a Mage and when necessary, my DPS was at the top of the chart. However, there is more to being a mage than DPS. I have to CC, dispel, interrupt, Spell Steel, etc. This all takes away from my DPS, but very important none-the-less. Some tank with an attitude can put on his blinders and say "Your DPS Sucks, your kicked!" and ruin my whole day out of their ignorance. That's why I say, worry about your own DPS and stop worrying about mine! BW is taking exactly the right path by limiting combat logs to each players own data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Harder, but in a *very* lame way. It's harder in the same sense that FPSs are harder with gamepads. If raids are balanced around heavy tool use they're more likely to be white-knuckle tight-tolerance affairs. If they're based around a really basic stock UI they'll be a lot more tolerant. This is just wrong. Achieving via in game feedback is part of the game and creates a level of challenge in content. A dps addon is simply a easy road circumvention of a challenging and fun part of playing these games. You want the content to be "okay raid we do 2512 dps we win". That sucks the heart and soul out of these games. That is not even a challenge then raids are just a pve grind to get to a dps number. That is awful gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) This is just wrong. Achieving via in game feedback is part of the game and creates a level of challenge in content. A dps addon is simply a easy road circumvention of a challenging and fun part of playing these games. You want the content to be "okay raid we do 2512 dps we win". That sucks the heart and soul out of these games. That is not even a challenge then raids are just a pve grind to get to a dps number. That is awful gameplay. I'm funding a study on the size of the average human ***** in the United States. I was going to have my staff use measuring tools, but I've decided to just ask everyone instead. Should be fine, right? ????? Also, the fact that they're letting us check our own DPS and using Enrage timers means that they're already going the "okay raid we do 2512 dps we win" route. The only difference is that you'll be able to bop the bologna while "DPS"ing and nobody will be able to call you on it. That's *IT.* They're not doing some miraculous kind of raid design you tool. They're going to do WoW style raids where you can't catch slackers. Full stop. Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 if we cant match the dps requirement of a boss i just kick a dps randomly and hope it was the slacker. sounds better for you? Sounds like a horrible raid leader who should be booted. Have you ever raided in an mmog without a dps meter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I think the OP has a good idea... if BioWare is only willing to make the combat log private by default, then they should make an option to make it "public". Now, there's also the chance this could hurt performance of the game (like the DPS parsers sometimes do) but let's hope it's lean and mean enough to not matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 In that OTHER game, I played a Mage and when necessary, my DPS was at the top of the chart. However, there is more to being a mage than DPS. I have to CC, dispel, interrupt, Spell Steel, etc. This all takes away from my DPS, but very important none-the-less. Some tank with an attitude can put on his blinders and say "Your DPS Sucks, your kicked!" and ruin my whole day out of their ignorance. That's why I say, worry about your own DPS and stop worrying about mine! BW is taking exactly the right path by limiting combat logs to each players own data. All this paranoia I keep hearing about some guy, who said you stunk, and kicked you from the group. Have any of you considered you might actually be doing poorly, or that it might be a good idea to get some advice and use some tools? It just takes a little homework. And a parser! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 and if the boss doesnt die? It is scary how many players have no idea what to do if an encounter fails and they don't have a dps log. That alone should be evidence against it. Get people back to playing the game and not the dps log. People can observe and determine changes in strategy without a dps log. It is weird how many people who consider themselves hardcore mmog players are seemingly lost without a dps meter. Just so people know people against public meters still intend to do the content. Just as part of the game not part of a spreadsheet. When you learn how to play games without dps meters it can be fun and rewarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 People can observe and determine changes in strategy without a dps log. I'm funding a study on the size of the average human ***** in the United States. I was going to have my staff use measuring tools, but I've decided to just ask everyone instead. Should be fine, right? I'm funding a study on the size of the average human ***** in the United States. I was going to have my staff use measuring tools, but I've decided to just ask everyone instead. Should be fine, right? I'm funding a study on the size of the average human ***** in the United States. I was going to have my staff use measuring tools, but I've decided to just ask everyone instead. Should be fine, right? ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The arrogant social engineering of the ant-meter lobby rises to the top again and again. You feel like you have the right to engineer our behavior. Why? We just don't think the game needs an easy mode parser that inhibits social interaction. One would think hardcore players would be up for a challenge and not rallying for an easy mode dps meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubamonk Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 It is scary how many players have no idea what to do if an encounter fails and they don't have a dps log. That alone should be evidence against it. Get people back to playing the game and not the dps log. People can observe and determine changes in strategy without a dps log. It is weird how many people who consider themselves hardcore mmog players are seemingly lost without a dps meter. Just so people know people against public meters still intend to do the content. Just as part of the game not part of a spreadsheet. When you learn how to play games without dps meters it can be fun and rewarding. So what you're saying is you can watch a dps, potentially a class you've never played. And tell every single move they do, just by looking at them? And in order to know what their dps is, you know every class/spec's rotation and what kind of dps they are capable of? I have to say, you're a better player than I if you are already at that point. Most of us need a little help and don't have the superhuman ability to see every single move the other 7/15 people do, and how to put said moves into context. My hat goes off to you sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 It is scary how many players have no idea what to do if an encounter fails and they don't have a dps log. That alone should be evidence against it. Get people back to playing the game and not the dps log. People can observe and determine changes in strategy without a dps log. It is weird how many people who consider themselves hardcore mmog players are seemingly lost without a dps meter. Just so people know people against public meters still intend to do the content. Just as part of the game not part of a spreadsheet. When you learn how to play games without dps meters it can be fun and rewarding. So tell me, why did the tank die? Was it the red beam or the green smoke? You don't need a log, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichLather Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) The boss has 10k health, I can see from the meter that dps 1 did 7k, and the tank did 2k, you can set your self to private but it wont take much to see that you only did 1k damage and are immediately kicked from my group if you are geared as well as the other dps doing 7k. Edited January 11, 2012 by RichLather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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