XciteNL Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 as said before, hardcore is not align with add-ons. hardcore (top 10, WoW guilds) dont use dbm, simply they are ahead of the curve so dbm does not have that info. Threatmeter, is not needed to optimize, experience will give that info, you learn how to balance your dps on anygiven moment. in wow i ended up running with out because it held me back, as i was always above the tank in the risk zone without it but never ever pulled from the tank, while with i held back way earlier. DPS meter, e-peen thing. No need to see your dps during combat. Combatlogs outside the game would be the best imo, then you can really analize your dps. and compare indepth. things that would help a lot (random order): target of target option on all (focus, party, target), visual que to show if you have agro on the nameplates and in party who has agro, abilty to move the ui around, combatlog and the abilty to save it to file. add-ons made us lazy, you can do without because you have used them a lot in wow you cant see the core anymore only the addons. altho i have some sort of agro meter in my wish list, but that is not something like omen. it would only show that you have agro or not, that way you can make split second calls to either run to tank or kite and kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) So you who are better want to down the mob more than the guy who is slacking? Should players be allowed to play to the best of their abilities? not everyone treats a game like a job or worse a life. People who play in the game should be allowed to play too, cause at the end of the day .... yup its just a game... See this is the thing, you are trying to belittle me instead of addressing the point. 1) I don't want it dumbed down, I want to be able to see my GROUPS performance, to see if someones being a *******. 2) Players should be allowed to play to the best of their abilities, I'm not asking anyone be not allowed to play. They should also not be hindered in playing, which some players will be by people just not trying, then using the "its only a game" excuse after having made 15 other people waste 3 hours wiping on a boss because they are half AFK. 3)I don't treat the game like a job or a life, thats exactly why I want a meter. So that I don't have to work my *** off twice as hard to carry someone who doesnt care and just wants to be given stuff without putting in effort. "Its just a game" is not an excuse for wasting others time by being selfish, and nor should everyone expect a devine right to be able to be shown all of the content without putting in effort. Edited January 11, 2012 by aimbotcfg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxNemhauser Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 you picked a bad word hardcore - unswervingly committed; uncompromising; dedicated what you wanted to use is most likely: min-max personally i do not care for addons, if someone ever said to me that i need to improve my rotation to maximize dps or get a gear piece that is 0.5-1% better than what i'm having i would gladly put that person on ignore list and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Althrinn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 "Hardcore" is a really unfortunate name and you've ruined this (otherwise promising) thread by using it - you immiediatelly incited conflict. The idea itself is decent, but... it's decent for WoW. SWTOR doesn't support addons as of now, and it's uncertain if it ever will. I used to be a strong fan of addons in WoW back in TBC period, but at some point, people just went too far with it - especially all the raid-helper addons like DBM. At some point in WoW-raiding, you were looking only on your overlay and not at the actual 3d view to get all your information - it's a bit ridiculous. But talking about addons is too beig a generalization, let's split it up a bit... 1. Interface look-and-feel addons Those are addons that change how your user interface looks (ie. different action bars, target frames, extra graphics). There's nothing wrong with them if they don't implement any extra logic (ie. interface components that act exactly the same as the original interface, just look different), or if they only implement non-competetive logic (ie. addons that sort your inventory, or better display your crew skills). I don't see any reason why this kind of addons should not be allowed, but instead of devising an addon framework just for those, it should be enough if the developers improve on the existing user interface and make it more configurable (SWTOR user interface must be the least configurable I've seen... even dinosaurs like Anarchy Online had movable action bars...). 2. Gameplay enhancements Macros, and addons that perform some logic for the player (like choose which ability to use based on the target). In my opinion, those should not be introduced, and game design should go in a direction that does not make them desirable. If some particular functionality is in demand (mouse-over healing please!), it should be implemented into the base game interface. This type of addons is one of two that crate the whole difficulty issue - if something like dispelling is way easier with an addon, the difficulty has to be set in accordance to the addon - thrus people who choose not to use addons rage - best avoid the issue. 3. Feedback enhancements All the raid warning and notification addons - in my opinion, those should be avoided as well. Instead, the 3d graphics and sound should be evident enough for you to know what's going on. I'd rather pay attention to the enemy's animation and what he's yelling, than to a stack of progress bars. 4. Player validation Damage meters and the like. I do feel a need for them, or at least a functional combat log that can be parsed out of game by external tools. I don't need (or want) a damage meter when I'm running a flashpoint with random people, but if I'm running an operations guild, I want a way to judge my members. Thrus, a combat log would be best, people will quickly create parser tools akin to World of Raids. Doesn't have to be ingame. 5. Information gathering Addons that (with help from external applications) feed info to database sites (like wowhead). Those are... well not needed, but desirable. I like functional item databases, and I like them up-to-date, which is impossible if someone has to do it by hand... However, this can be archieved by a good implementation of a combat log - then an external parser would suffice. All in all, if anyone cared about my opinion, I would say: do not create an addon framework, instead improve on the existing interface, make it WAY more configurable, if a functionality is in demand (because some form of player task is too dubious without it) - add it to the game. Add to that an option to log detailed item information to a file. As for combat logs - I would find it perfect if it was either server based (as the OP suggested, just without the unfortunate "hardcore"-"casual" naming division), or volountary (aka. a configuration option "allow my actions to be logged by other players"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 as said before, hardcore is not align with add-ons. hardcore (top 10, WoW guilds) dont use dbm, simply they are ahead of the curve so dbm does not have that info. Threatmeter, is not needed to optimize, experience will give that info, you learn how to balance your dps on anygiven moment. in wow i ended up running with out because it held me back, as i was always above the tank in the risk zone without it but never ever pulled from the tank, while with i held back way earlier. DPS meter, e-peen thing. No need to see your dps during combat. Combatlogs outside the game would be the best imo, then you can really analize your dps. and compare indepth. things that would help a lot (random order): target of target option on all (focus, party, target), visual que to show if you have agro on the nameplates and in party who has agro, abilty to move the ui around, combatlog and the abilty to save it to file. add-ons made us lazy, you can do without because you have used them a lot in wow you cant see the core anymore only the addons. altho i have some sort of agro meter in my wish list, but that is not something like omen. it would only show that you have agro or not, that way you can make split second calls to either run to tank or kite and kill. So, in WoW right now Gearscore is irrelevant... noone uses recount and DBM and if they where allowed in Swtor noone would use em... right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripebear Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Bioware combat developer has already stated that combat log and a meter to gauge dps of you and your party is very high on the priority list. It's coming and there isn't much anyone can do about it. The developers have spoken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Bioware combat developer has already stated that combat log and a meter to gauge dps of you and your party is very high on the priority list. It's coming and there isn't much anyone can do about it. The developers have spoken The troll is strong with this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripebear Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The troll is strong with this one... There is a post and a link to a video on the forums here. Sorry but I'm not trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripebear Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=66910 Here. Glad that shut you up! Edited January 11, 2012 by Ripebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaquelotus Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 "Hardcore" is a really unfortunate name and you've ruined this (otherwise promising) thread by using it - you immiediatelly incited conflict. The idea itself is decent, but... it's decent for WoW. SWTOR doesn't support addons as of now, and it's uncertain if it ever will. I used to be a strong fan of addons in WoW back in TBC period, but at some point, people just went too far with it - especially all the raid-helper addons like DBM. At some point in WoW-raiding, you were looking only on your overlay and not at the actual 3d view to get all your information - it's a bit ridiculous. But talking about addons is too beig a generalization, let's split it up a bit... 1. Interface look-and-feel addons Those are addons that change how your user interface looks (ie. different action bars, target frames, extra graphics). There's nothing wrong with them if they don't implement any extra logic (ie. interface components that act exactly the same as the original interface, just look different), or if they only implement non-competetive logic (ie. addons that sort your inventory, or better display your crew skills). I don't see any reason why this kind of addons should not be allowed, but instead of devising an addon framework just for those, it should be enough if the developers improve on the existing user interface and make it more configurable (SWTOR user interface must be the least configurable I've seen... even dinosaurs like Anarchy Online had movable action bars...). 2. Gameplay enhancements Macros, and addons that perform some logic for the player (like choose which ability to use based on the target). In my opinion, those should not be introduced, and game design should go in a direction that does not make them desirable. If some particular functionality is in demand (mouse-over healing please!), it should be implemented into the base game interface. This type of addons is one of two that crate the whole difficulty issue - if something like dispelling is way easier with an addon, the difficulty has to be set in accordance to the addon - thrus people who choose not to use addons rage - best avoid the issue. 3. Feedback enhancements All the raid warning and notification addons - in my opinion, those should be avoided as well. Instead, the 3d graphics and sound should be evident enough for you to know what's going on. I'd rather pay attention to the enemy's animation and what he's yelling, than to a stack of progress bars. 4. Player validation Damage meters and the like. I do feel a need for them, or at least a functional combat log that can be parsed out of game by external tools. I don't need (or want) a damage meter when I'm running a flashpoint with random people, but if I'm running an operations guild, I want a way to judge my members. Thrus, a combat log would be best, people will quickly create parser tools akin to World of Raids. Doesn't have to be ingame. 5. Information gathering Addons that (with help from external applications) feed info to database sites (like wowhead). Those are... well not needed, but desirable. I like functional item databases, and I like them up-to-date, which is impossible if someone has to do it by hand... However, this can be archieved by a good implementation of a combat log - then an external parser would suffice. All in all, if anyone cared about my opinion, I would say: do not create an addon framework, instead improve on the existing interface, make it WAY more configurable, if a functionality is in demand (because some form of player task is too dubious without it) - add it to the game. Add to that an option to log detailed item information to a file. As for combat logs - I would find it perfect if it was either server based (as the OP suggested, just without the unfortunate "hardcore"-"casual" naming division), or volountary (aka. a configuration option "allow my actions to be logged by other players"). I think for the most part I agree with your view point. I honestly don't have to much of a problem with any Add-on in theory. In WoW we eventually saw encounters being designed with third party support being assumed. As a programmer I have a professional problem with designing an application that needs a third party application in order to to be functional. To me that's just bad design. Now if BioWare creates their own GUI modification/options that's a completely different story. As to the OP post I think you pose an interesting idea. I wonder how many people would actually go to these servers? Honestly its difficult for me to tell where the desires of the masses are on the subject modifications. There is an extremely vocal crowd on both sides of the issue on these fora. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Althrinn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 As to the OP post I think you pose an interesting idea. I wonder how many people would actually go to these servers? Honestly its difficult for me to tell where the desires of the masses are on the subject modifications. There is an extremely vocal crowd on both sides of the issue on these fora. Hehe... there's a very simple solution to vocal minorities and silent majorities problem... an ingame poll system. It would allow the designers to have reliable statistic information on the community's view on various matters, instead of having to base on the troll contest on the forums. And (being a programmer myself as well) I don't see ingame polls system as something overly difficult to implement... But then, there'd be the whole new problem of people not understanding the difference between opinion-gathering-poll and a vote. And I would go to one of those servers... hell, I might even scribe a few addons up myself. I don't like the whole "gearscore and recount driven" community model, but if I had to choose between that and the way SWTOR interface is right now, I'd go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razot Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Did i read that correctly? Harcore with addons and such?? HAHAHAHA I think you have your terminology mixed up! Hardcore would be No Macros or addons, Corpse looting(So its a real crafting game and i am all for that), XP loss, destructable items based on condition and real penalties related to actions such as player bounties. I am all for that! In fact, that was really the game I was hoping for! As for perma death, thats only a cool idea to people that claim to have lived through it, and without an Alpha class i say LOL! I think you want a speacial needs server imo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racsofp Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Harcore with addons and such?? HAHAHAHA I think you have your terminology mixed up! Hardcore would be No Macros or addons, That can't be. I've read a number of the threads about macros and addons and meters. It's all self proclaimed hardcore elite players in world class guilds spouting off their online gaming resumes saying that games cannot be played without meters or macros or addons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korizan Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Actually if the forums where broken up between PvP and PvE it would make a big difference. There is a lot of Issues being complained about and when you get down to it most of them are coming from the PvP servers. Half the confusion is that the PvE servers aren't seeing the same issues so people argue, when they are both right just not about the same thing. Edited January 11, 2012 by Korizan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontDenyRy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Want hardcore? Come to Eve, I have all the mods you need in my purty yellow container. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razot Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Want hardcore? Come to Eve, I have all the mods you need in my purty yellow container. oooohhhhhh Whats in it??????? On my way to Jita now!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden_Dissent Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I thought this post was about a FFA server with full inventory loot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedThump Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hardcore should mean you have to complete all side quests and answer a quiz about the stories before you can move on to another planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 No really I miss Hardcore permadeath. I believe the last game to offer it was Diablo 2. It is also something that hardcore players do in fact enjoy at lest some of them do. There is something to be proud about having a high level on any game that has permadeath. It's easy. Every time you die you delete your character. Instant perma-death in any game. Enjoy yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malice_Nihilim Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Thank you sir for staying on topic and constructive. Its about as constructive as one can be with a thread like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrshush Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) I don't see the relation between hardcore and add-ons. i think this post is just a sneaky attempt to say, i want add ons now! and i dont care if your gonna support them later. hardcore has nothing to do with addons permadeath, open pvp would be hardcore. oh last game with hardcore permadeath Terraria!!!!!! Edited January 11, 2012 by Mrshush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaeys Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would very much like to see combat logs in this game without addon support, yes. Combat Logs allow raiding guilds to make parcels and stuff after the raids and figure out what went wrong and where, etc. I've said it multiple times before; in game damage meters are nothing but trouble. Combat logs are what is needed by the raiding guilds. This makes a lot of sense to me. It gives us a way to evaluate raiders and make adjustments without the drama that comes with in game recount meters. Yes. Yes. Yes. To the OP's point, I seriously doubt the technology exists to have servers that support add on and other servers that don't. My understanding is that add ons work on the client side, not the server side. That said, the idea of hardcore servers (done much like RP servers now) isn't a bad idea. Clearly stating the nature of the environment on the server screen makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redshirtricky Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hardcore server rules: 1. Only 1 character can be created, period. 2. Player must log on ever 4-5 hours to feed / drink character. 3. Account deletion whenever character is killed for any reason. This obviously includes dying: a. in space combat b. due to starvation c. companions killing you while logged out (in your sleep) 3a. When falling from great distances, if the player is not outright killed when hitting the bottom, the player will have a 50-75% chance of incurring a broken arm (cannot use main weapon) / rib (HP bleedout) / leg (-95% movement debuff). This effect persists until player visits a medical droid. 3b. When visiting a medical droid to recover from injury, the player has a 25% chance of dying from the operating table. 4. Player must fill out forms / submit ID when applying for a Starship piloting license, and renew that license every month. 4b. Due to player complaints about instances, there will only be one instance of the DISV (dept of interstellar vehicles) to both the republic and empire. Standard pvp rules apply. Everyone is conned red to everyone else, due to the DISV implementing a first-come-first-served rule policy. 5. No speeders allowed. 6. Sprint drains HP whenever a character has it toggled for more than 10 seconds. 7. PvP enabled (duh), even against your faction. Friendly fire enabled. 8. When healing, you can actually kill the person you're healing if you overdose him with overhealing. 9. Companions may or may not attack you at any moment (think Khem Val or Scourge) 10. Armor and clothing can suddenly melt / disintegrate when attacked by fire / acid. This will leave said player in their skivvies and all the armor stat bonuses are obviously gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avenloc Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I have never had a problem with add-ons that don't interface with the chat window. My suggestion is to allow add-ons, but do not allow them to interact with the chat window in any way. I don't care how much DPS, HPS, or TPS another player is doing, but they are welcome to keep track of it - privately - if they'd like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd_now Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I thought this post was about a FFA server with full inventory loot. I'm not even into PvP, and I would support this. At the very least it would quiet some of the ************ around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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