Macros - ETA?

[Bald_Haliaeetus]

Hi,

 

I don't know if this has been covered, but the post is 43 pages long so....

 

... anyway, my opinion.

 

I have used macros and addons in WoW, and they made it an easier process.

 

I know this post is specifically about macros and while my objections against those are less than addon, they are there none the less.

 

It's like this. If the healing/tanking/dps is too difficult without macros, then it's not balanced right, and that needs to be addressed.

 

Within WoW they took the attitude if the UI is broke we will let the community fix it (and then cherry pick the best ideas for inclusion in the main UI). The problem is it's not a universal fix, and is not compulsory.

 

Basically my opinion (and it is just that, I'm not saying it's any more valid than yours) is that if its not possible to do something without custom functionality then fix it for everyone or not at all.

 

Macros do no effect the difficulty of the game. Addons are another story, but that's for another thread.

 

Could you describe specifically what macros in wow that you felt effected the game difficulty? I'm no expert on the WoW system, but the ones I used (mouseover and certain conditionals such as help vs hurt) did not effect difficulty at all. That's not to say they don't exist, though, so if you know of something that hasn't been mentioned yet, please share.

[Chewpaco]

Trust me, I can outheal/outpvp and probably outRL you with mouseover or without. Nice "kids these days" rant... /facepalm

 

I doubt it. Especially if you are required to switch targets! LOL!!

 

Sorry - but you can't play this game right now using your set little 2-3 macro gimped rotation, smash your head into the keyboard for I win.

 

Yes you have to watch cooldowns. Yes you have to switch targets. Yes you have to think.

 

OMG! What a NIGHTMARE! I just want to watch the pretty particle effects, and smash some buttons!

 

This is stupid! Every game in the 2012 era should have macros and mousever casting! This is so dumb!

 

Lol - see you at the Medicenter.

[Bald_Haliaeetus]

I doubt it. Especially if you are required to switch targets! LOL!!

 

Sorry - but you can't play this game right now using your set little 2-3 macro gimped rotation, smash your head into the keyboard for I win.

 

Yes you have to watch cooldowns. Yes you have to switch targets. Yes you have to think.

 

OMG! What a NIGHTMARE! I just want to watch the pretty particle effects, and smash some buttons!

 

This is stupid! Every game in the 2012 era should have macros and mousever casting! This is so dumb!

 

Lol - see you at the Medicenter.

 

Let's stop the e-peen flapping, please.

 

As for the rest of your post, read the op and you'll see that the whole i-win button concern is absolutely invalid.

[Chewpaco]

 

Macros do no effect the difficulty of the game. Addons are another story, but that's for another thread.

 

Could you describe specifically what macros in wow that you felt effected the game difficulty? I'm no expert on the WoW system, but the ones I used (mouseover and certain conditionals such as help vs hurt) did not effect difficulty at all. That's not to say they don't exist, though, so if you know of something that hasn't been mentioned yet, please share.

 

Sorry - but you are dillusional. Mousever and conditionals such as help vs hurt effects difficulty.

 

When you take a 2 step process ( switch target and execute spell) into a 1 step process - execute spell, you have just lowered chance for human error, by targeting the wrong person.

 

When you turn 8 keybinds into 4 keybinds - with help/hurt conditions, you have just lowered your chance for Human error.

 

These types of macros are designed to make decison making easier - period. When you turn a player from and 8 button player into a 4 button player, the game has just become easier.

[Chewpaco]

 

Macros do no effect the difficulty of the game. Addons are another story, but that's for another thread.

 

Could you describe specifically what macros in wow that you felt effected the game difficulty? I'm no expert on the WoW system, but the ones I used (mouseover and certain conditionals such as help vs hurt) did not effect difficulty at all. That's not to say they don't exist, though, so if you know of something that hasn't been mentioned yet, please share.

 

If a player moves with w,a,s,d and has help vs hurt condition macros set to 1-4 on the keybinds, and never needs to use another hand for 5-8, it is easier.

 

But, but, but the razor naga! I can do that on my naga!. It still 8 different buttons - not 4. Sure the naga allows you to be mobile with your left hand and target and execute all spells with your right. But, if someone has a naga and macros? Make a naga user a 4 button player? talk about a gimped game - it would be a joke compared to those who don't have a naga.

[Bald_Haliaeetus]

-snip-

 

You misunderstand me. I said that macros do not effect the difficulty of the game. They do effect the difficulty of the UI, but imo, the UI shouldn't be a source of difficulty in the first place.

 

Perhaps I should have specified that they do not effect the game content, opposed to just 'game' ...understandably confusing, as we're talking about some nit-picky differences, but differences nonetheless.

[SomeDudeIsanub]

Good job with the explanation OP.

 

I support thee.

[RadehX]

Already have macros...it's called Logitech G13 and rocks

[Bald_Haliaeetus]

Already have macros...it's called Logitech G13 and rocks

 

I have a Naga Razer, it can do pretty much the same thing afaik. The macros its capable of are marginally useful... I use it to fire off relics in tandem with certain abilities. Outside off that, the only thing it's capable of are the 15-abilities-in-one-button macros, which make the game boring as he'll... if you like using those kinds of macros, give Rift a shot - it runs on them.

 

Most people who want macros in SWTOR do NOT want those kind of macros.

[Sizzurps]

Macros might make it in next year. Please sub so they can continue development.

[jtype_sw]

Just no. I will quit the game if this happens.

[GnatB]

In regards to OP:

I see no significant difference between his examples of "good condition" macros and his example of "bad condition" macros. i.e. back stab if behind, regular attack if not is "bad" whereas heal if friendly, attack if enemy is "good". They're both pretty critical distinctions.

 

That being said, as far as I care, the only use for macros is to fix reaction speed/button pressing issues. In short, what the user calls "I win" buttons.

 

And you know what? I'm fine with that. "I win buttons" that pick the first of whichever option isn't on cooldown is perfectly acceptable to me. And, in fact, doesn't violate the TOS any if you happen to hook up such a macro via an macro mouse or keyboard. Heck, even throw conditionals into the mix. This is an RPG, not an action game. It's *supposed* to be about my characters stats/abilities, and not how quickly/accurately I can push the correct buttons. I create the strategy/build. My character implements it.

 

'Course, I'll also readily admit I believe that PvP in MMORPG's is pointless... again, because the whole point of PvP is player vs. player skill, and the whole point of RPG's (and thus MMORPG's) is the characters abilities. So PvP in an RPG will/should just end up with whichever character is better built/equipped winning... which is largely pointless.

 

Edit: Additionally, some classes are *far* more reflex based. Pretty much EVERYTHING on my guardian is an instant, with long enough cooldowns that the rotation is pretty complex. Every MS I delay in figuring out what to press (or simply moving my finger/mouse over to the right button) is a significant percentage of damage/taunt lost. My sage? Not so much. Everything has a pretty long cast time/channel time, and the rotation is *far* simpler. Even *if* I have to think between casts longer than the cast times require, a short pause doesn't significantly affect my output.

Edited February 15, 2012 by GnatB

[Hologramx]

Macro is essential for some specific classes, not all. For some classes, it is just too many skills to use that you can't have enough keys to be assigned to all of them. As a result, you have to drop certain skills though they are supposed to be a part of that class.

 

With macros, it would be much more efficient and fun to deal with endgame contents, especially ops, where you have to take care of many real time information and act quickly that you need less to take care of your cool downs and target switching. If you are a healer, you need to target your enemy constantly instead of your MT in many situations. Without macro, this can make the fight just boring and painstaking.

 

I know there are side-effects, but macro is still a need for sophisticated MMO as a commonsense. Unless they think SWTOR should remain primitive.

[Bald_Haliaeetus]

In regards to OP:

I see no significant difference between his examples of "good condition" macros and his example of "bad condition" macros. i.e. back stab if behind, regular attack if not is "bad" whereas heal if friendly, attack if enemy is "good". They're both pretty critical distinctions.

 

The difference is that with the 'good' conditionals, the combat decision has already been made by the action leading to the execution of the ability. You can't just arbitrarily shoot a friendly target in the face, or heal an unfriendly target. Now, if this game had friendly fire, different story; that decision would be much more critical.

 

frontstab vs backstab, though... the condition of being behind your target vs infront of your target can change from one to the other many times without the player executing the ability even moving.

 

In other words, the 'good' conditionals do not make decisions for you, while the 'bad' ones do.

 

That being said, as far as I care, the only use for macros is to fix reaction speed/button pressing issues. In short, what the user calls "I win" buttons.

 

And you know what? I'm fine with that. "I win buttons" that pick the first of whichever option isn't on cooldown is perfectly acceptable to me. And, in fact, doesn't violate the TOS any if you happen to hook up such a macro via an macro mouse or keyboard. Heck, even throw conditionals into the mix. This is an RPG, not an action game. It's *supposed* to be about my characters stats/abilities, and not how quickly/accurately I can push the correct buttons. I create the strategy/build. My character implements it.

 

Get a Razer Naga. you can make the 'win button' macros with it... it does make combat excruciatingly boring, though, so do it at your own risk. Although, speaking as a Razer Naga owner, macros or not, they're a great mouse especially for the MMO genre.

 

'Course, I'll also readily admit I believe that PvP in MMORPG's is pointless... again, because the whole point of PvP is player vs. player skill, and the whole point of RPG's (and thus MMORPG's) is the characters abilities. So PvP in an RPG will/should just end up with whichever character is better built/equipped winning... which is largely pointless.

 

eh, I think the MMORPG genre has evolved beyond its title. Most of them pretty much ignore the "rpg" portion of it. SWTOR does a good job of bringing the rpg bit back to the mmorpg, but only if you look at it as a single player game... it is as much an RPG as the kotor's leading up to it. There are zero "massively multiplayer roleplaying" aspects of the game that I'm aware of, barring player generated RP, which BW is too apathetic toward to even enforce a RP naming policy. There are small-scale multiplayer roleplaying elements in the form of group quests / instances... but that's it.

 

Anyway, point is that although "massively multiplayer roleplaying" may not scream "player v player", but its grown to be not only an important aspect of the game, but a focal point of many players, who pvp almost exclusively, and rarely PvE (which is the category I personally fall into).

 

Edit: Additionally, some classes are *far* more reflex based. Pretty much EVERYTHING on my guardian is an instant, with long enough cooldowns that the rotation is pretty complex. Every MS I delay in figuring out what to press (or simply moving my finger/mouse over to the right button) is a significant percentage of damage/taunt lost. My sage? Not so much. Everything has a pretty long cast time/channel time, and the rotation is *far* simpler. Even *if* I have to think between casts longer than the cast times require, a short pause doesn't significantly affect my output.

 

this is something I wish people would keep in mind when offering their feedback. I have a feeling a lot of the folks who say macros are not necessary are the ones who can get away with using like 4 abilities.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Bald_Haliaeetus

[GnatB]

Get a Razer Naga. you can make the 'win button' macros with it... it does make combat excruciatingly boring, though, so do it at your own risk. Although, speaking as a Razer Naga owner, macros or not, they're a great mouse especially for the MMO genre.

 

Already have a G13, so yeah. It'd just be more convenient/accurate using an in-game system. (for one thing, As near as I can tell the game (or at least it did when I was first setting up) uses keyboard polling instead of keyboard events, so you have to actually have a delay holding the key down, which obviously limits the number of commands you can effectively map to a particular key. (though it's possible they changed this as part of their fix to reduce activation delay on low FPS machines) That being said, it's nice for those "this move if incapacitated, that move if immobalized" type stuf, since presumably only one will work, so can press at same time instead of doing them in a priority sequence.

 

(additionally, would make it easier to have better "per character" macros. G13 can only change between 3 profiles without having to switch via the UI. )

 

And I don't find it makes combat particularly more or less boring. It makes a basic combat rotation simpler, but mashing 12345 over and over (or whatever) isn't exactly exciting either. Just harder on your keyboard.

 

If I want exciting multiplayer reflex based gameing, I play battlefield or modern warfare.

[Chewpaco]

 

You misunderstand me. I said that macros do not effect the difficulty of the game. They do effect the difficulty of the UI, but imo, the UI shouldn't be a source of difficulty in the first place.

 

Perhaps I should have specified that they do not effect the game content, opposed to just 'game' ...understandably confusing, as we're talking about some nit-picky differences, but differences nonetheless.

 

I agree that the UI shouldn't be a source of difficulty. But it isn't. I can keybind my 10 most used skills 1-0. Anything that doesn't make its' way into those top 10 abilities - can still be put on an action bar for either Shift + , or a side action bar for a click every now and then.

 

The UI doesn't need to be made dummy proof either. When combat macros are used - player performance is increased tremendously.

 

Think of MACRO's like Steroids in Baseball. You don't need them to play, but when you use them, your performance level increases. Then - for the people that don't wish to use them, they are automatically on an uneven playing field with people that decide to use them.

 

3rd party UI's, Macro's, all change the idea of a level playing field when it comes to any sort of competition. In order to have a level playing field - everyone has to be seeing and hearing the same combat conditions - presented in the same manner, through the same UI.

[Bald_Haliaeetus]

I agree that the UI shouldn't be a source of difficulty. But it isn't. I can keybind my 10 most used skills 1-0. Anything that doesn't make its' way into those top 10 abilities - can still be put on an action bar for either Shift + , or a side action bar for a click every now and then.

 

The UI doesn't need to be made dummy proof either. When combat macros are used - player performance is increased tremendously.

 

Think of MACRO's like Steroids in Baseball. You don't need them to play, but when you use them, your performance level increases. Then - for the people that don't wish to use them, they are automatically on an uneven playing field with people that decide to use them.

 

3rd party UI's, Macro's, all change the idea of a level playing field when it comes to any sort of competition. In order to have a level playing field - everyone has to be seeing and hearing the same combat conditions - presented in the same manner, through the same UI.

 

3rd party macros or bots could be compared to steroids... in game macros would be more in line with a good pair baseball shoes (if there is such a thing... i don't play baseball, so just roll with it ) Using the shoes would make playing the game more comfortable, but that's about it. A better baseball player wearing tennis shoes is still going to beat you; a fat slob wearing $10,000 baseball shoes is still going to suck.

 

I just want to be able to choose my own shoes >_>

[Nurvus]

Just my opinion but i dont see the need for macro's at all. Im doing just fine without em Mainly because i hate having 2 buttons that do everything

 

Second i hope they never introduce mouse over healing makes things too easy imo.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

This represents the mentality of about 90% of the haters.

Pure selfishness fueled by denied ignorance - since you don't need/want, no one else can have...

 

Get it through your head:

WoW's macros are not game breaking - they are a basic extention to the keybinding options.

The only exception is -maybe- /castsequence, wich is not automated, and very limited.

 

Yes, everyone can play without them.

But some of us like to play with them.

[Bald_Haliaeetus]

This represents the mentality of about 90% of the haters.

Pure selfishness fueled by denied ignorance - since you don't need/want, no one else can have...

 

Heh. 90% is being generous. I've only seen a couple posts so far that are opposed to macros for legitimate reasons.

[Reaperchris]

Hopefully never because they are a crutch for bad players and an excuse to get a .5 second advantage and buy a Razer mouse/keyboard.

[Reaperchris]

This represents the mentality of about 90% of the haters.

Pure selfishness fueled by denied ignorance - since you don't need/want, no one else can have...

 

Get it through your head:

WoW's macros are not game breaking - they are a basic extention to the keybinding options.

The only exception is -maybe- /castsequence, wich is not automated, and very limited.

 

Yes, everyone can play without them.

But some of us like to play with them.

 

I guess I'm part of the 10% because I don't use them because I'd rather rely on skill rather than who has the best setup of macros.

[Mechakingzilla]

If you want to be good at a game then GET GOOD. If you need Macro's to play, then you're not really playing are you...

 

 

I'm sorry how does anyone else's ease or difficulty in a game affect you? Are you apart of a guild with "players who don't know how to play"? Do you raid with said players? Do they hinder your ability to see content? I'm just trying to understand why you give a crap.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Mechakingzilla

[Angelshooter]

IMO macros are for lazy bums with no skill, plain and simple. I've had enough of the two button faceroller warriors in rift...we sure as hell don't need that in swtor.

[Eonz]

[EDIT]

 

Much confusion, there is. This edit, you must comprehend; or look like an idiot, you will. Apologize for the wall-o-text, I do.

 

 

apologize for the confusion that your edit suggests at the beginning of an obvious tl'dr.... either make your yoda speak coherent or don't post an "edit" suggesting the reader is an idiot... and again... for the tl'dr... the OP has the same old same old bias opinion in a wall of text larger then your local library.

[Radubadu]

If you don't understand how macros function don't post. If you think they make the game too easy here's what I'd say to that.

 

PVE - This is going to be mostly healers... it makes it so your healer can keep the bad guy targeted while keeping several party members alive. The difference between having a mouse over macro and not having one is this... I click on the tank then hit the corresponding heal button or with the macro I put my cursor over the tank's icon and hit the same button... not having to click means I can still see the bad guy and know what he's doing so if he's about to use an ability I can stun... I can catch it. But if you don't want it so that your healer can be more efficient that's cool... I just won't tell you I'm using macros. Or if you're a healer and you want to be able to say "I do just fine without macros, I'm hardcore!" That's on you... you go ahead and work harder... I'll work smarter.

 

PVP - This is where I'm sure most of the confusion and QQing comes from. "Player X was able to beat me because they were using macros." No... player X beat you because either a. you suck or b. they're just flat out better than you. If they're doing anything .5 seconds faster than you it has nothing to do with macros... if anything I'll bet they're turning with they're mouse and you're using your arrows or A and D keys.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Arzhanin
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