Why so many complaints about premades?

[karnyboy]

I make a premade because I do enjoy a good fight against another good group. The difference is I am thinking more long term. Separating out premades from randoms does not encourage people to form premades of their own. In fact in many ways it discourages it.

 

I am simply looking for a system that encourages good competition at the highest levels and that can only happen if people are encouraged to get organized. It does not happen if they are allowed to go hide in their own little corner.

 

It doesn't discourage it at all, when first attempting something like pvp you should be able to soak your feet with a random group for as long as you want. The natural progression should you choose to stick with it these people serious about it will find their own ways to create groups (premades). That decision should be left up to the player.

 

That is unfortunately not the case, if I don't want to face premades, I don't get that option, EVER. This is called an unfair advantage.

[wunahokalugi]

go to a pro football game, grab some random people from the crowd to play against them, pretty much the same thing.

 

And then win or lose expect a pro football player's salary check.

[LordLinus]

You can't always find people to play with, time restraints, my guild doesn't always play when I play, some guild mates don't want to pvp, the list goes on. I shouldn't have to be punished play against a premade if I don't want to, but yet I am being forced to.

 

You not getting the experience that you feel you are entitled to is not punishment in any way. This is a multiplayer game; by its very definition you will have to play with other people. However, no one is forcing you to do this. You have a choice, which you freely exercise every time that you log into this game or when queuing for a Warzone.

 

By what you stated above it sounds to me like you need to find a guild that plays on your schedule or at least one that PvPs. If you do not wish to do this, maybe you can encourage your guildmates to recruit people who share your playing style and schedule. There are a number of solutions that will solve your problem. However, the solution to your problem should not be to bend the entire design of a game, with millions of people playing, to suit your desires.

[BattleCorgi]

You do realize in First person shooters, there are Clans, and therefore pre-mades right? These clans can go up against a lot of random people. Should we completely change how FPS games work on the internet too?

 

The problem with that argument is in most FPS games you can chose your server. As a random player I wouldn't go logging onto a clan server and expect not to see premades. So I can choose to face them or not.

 

In this game you have no option to select anything, not even the warzone. Thus it's apples to oranges in that respect.

 

Also with FPS games you don't usually have to pay for a subscription. Since we all pay for this most of us expect to have some say in how things operate as a whole. Which means yes the premade people do too and if Bioware chooses to listen to them then so be it. But most of the arguments always seem so polar and disregard the other side completely before turning into insult slinging.

 

I should also say your post was well done. I'm not harshing on you, just bringing up a counterpoint.

[Qeuzolt]

There's no reason why premades don't already face other premades, we shouldn't have to put up with level 50 premade **** facerolling us when we just want a bit of casual pvp fun while leveling.

 

So the premades should have to deal with obscene wait times to play with their friends so all the "casual pvp" pugs can be in their own place? That would defeat the purpose of premades, and ruin the class mechanics in the game. Why not all roll BH and we can all tracer missile spam each other till we die too? The premades will go away when rated WZ system is implemented, then regular WZ will just be practice for rated WZ.

 

I started a sith sorc got it to about 23 and realized I always play the same class so I switched to an Operative to break up the monotony. I was getting rolled by premades on the sorc, it made pvp terrible. I joined the first guild that was posting in Hutta General chat @lvl3. Started getting some people together and using vent, now we are rolling people, a lot times they are 50 premades and we are 30-50 premade, mostly 30. If you spend some time getting to know people and building some relationships you will have more fun in the game.

 

So there's the complaints that premades waiting for other premades will take too long? The solution is easy and Rift got it right eventually. Why games never seem to take such approaches from the start is beyond me.

 

1. If it's a premade group then while doing group matching match with other premade groups first to make a game.

 

2. Fill with random players to fill it off if there's no matching premade group of count X.

 

3. If no premades are queued, you get random.

 

I would be happy with this type of solution. I think the premades vs pugs will die off when they implement rated WZs to a point. I like the system atm because I believe it encourages people to do premades. I wouldn't have started one if the current system didn't encourage it.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Qeuzolt

[karnyboy]

By your standards, there should never be any multiplayer, competitive game... or very few at least.

 

You do realize in First person shooters, there are Clans, and therefore pre-mades right? These clans can go up against a lot of random people. Should we completely change how FPS games work on the internet too?

 

As long as people make friends and play a common game, there will be cases of partial premades, if not full premades. You want to place some restriction on them just because they wanted to play with friends?

 

If BW wants to create rated Warzones for premades, then great. But it's not going to prevent some partial/full premades from q'ing up with randoms.

 

The sooner you accept this reality, the less rage you will have.

 

I choose not to join those ladder clans in the FPS too, I play on a very large community of mixed player skills in my FPS games, it's friendly and not serious and fun. I see the games shift on both sides because the skills and teams constantly get mixed up. I don't rage in this game either, i just happen to see the bigger picture. It seems many of you appear threatened by the thought of losing your premade group in pvp facerolling chances should a system ever be implemented.

[Caliban_Thule]

People who are against premade vs premade are usually just afraid of getting stomped by a good team like they stomp pugs. Most of them at the moment will probably dodge if they run up against another team, because they dont want any real challenge, they just want to roll people who cant fight back.

[ttwistt]

go to a pro football game, grab some random people from the crowd to play against them, pretty much the same thing.

 

take a pro football team to a pickup game at the park...

 

this has nothing to do with playing with "friends" and everything to do with easy wins.

Edited January 10, 2012 by ttwistt

[BattleCorgi]

take a pro football team to a pickup game at the park...

 

I hear my roommate who plays hockey in a C league complain about when the other team gets an A league group mixed in there all the time. It just destroys the game balance and they all wind up upset that they had to pay for it and the company who manages the pairings let it happen.

 

So it's not limited to MMOs either. And the team with the advantage never complains of course. Unfortunately they're usually more polite and well spoken than people in MMOs.

[Kelticfury]

The ones who don't see an issue with pre-mades fail to see the point.

 

I have played in pugs that knew their role and had good matches vs premades. maybe won, maybe lost, but it was always close.

 

What you are really mad about is that so many people in this new game do not know their role or the map goals yet.

 

I bet you are on of those awesome dudes that wastes time typing out how everyone sucks and is doing it wrong instead of doing your part to accomplish map goals.

 

Here's a thought, get off your elite horse and try being helpful and telling these noobs in a nice way, what map goals are or some simple pointers.

 

Its better to remain silent and be thought stupid than to rant on the forums about premades breaking the game and proving it.

[Ryvendale]

Premades vs PUGs, are not fun, for either side.

 

But it seem the big turn off to a premade bracket is the potential queue times (and this will become less of a problem as people finish leveling… in my guild I’m the only 50, the others are still leveling, so I queue up solo and get rolled a lot… but I expect it).

 

What if there were two queues?

 

What if there was a tool you could use to submit a premade to play, I’m envisioning in my head the looking for group panel. You’d sign up team, see if any other teams (including the opposition) are signed or “queued” up to play. Once another premade is found you can “challenge” them to a game. All groups should be kept anonymous other than faction (maybe not even that).

 

In the meantime, while you’re waiting you can queue up solo to regular warzones.

 

I don’t know how the whole “I’m in a match already thing solo, so now my group has to wait” thing would work… but the longest a WZ takes anyways is 16 minutes or so.

 

Just a thought, a barebones idea with obvious holes… but maybe something cool.

[Svest]

It doesn't discourage it at all, when first attempting something like pvp you should be able to soak your feet with a random group for as long as you want. The natural progression should you choose to stick with it these people serious about it will find their own ways to create groups (premades). That decision should be left up to the player.

 

That is unfortunately not the case, if I don't want to face premades, I don't get that option, EVER. This is called an unfair advantage.

 

Yes it does discourage it, with longer queue times and less rewards for more work.

 

My point is the system needs to encourage organization. Either through allowing the disorganized to get stomped or giving greater rewards to being organized. Otherwise people will not do it.

 

You say you want a WZ where you can only queue up solo? I say fine but then in that WZ all valor and commendation gains should be cut in half or worse. If you want the best rewards you should be required to play at the top level and in a team-based game that includes having an organized team.

[wunahokalugi]

There is nothing Bioware can do about it.

 

If they build a premade versus premade system and the queues pop instantly as they do now. Hell yeah, no more level 11's in the second four spots helping fight the two 50 premades on the other team. Fantastic, not realistic but sounds great.

 

If they build a premade versus premade, and the queue times go from instant to more than 10-minutes (pretty high amount of waiting time for a 5 to 15 minute game); those same premades are going to agree not to group, and will still end up in the same match by using their brains and the queue button with voice chat.

 

3....2....1....queue

 

I think you're fooling yourselves that this CAN be solved. I personally don't think that it SHOULD. Good luck.

 

Example question:

 

Do these "for fun" PUG-only games get access to gear?

Edited January 10, 2012 by wunahokalugi

[Modecrypt]

I agree, but I believe once enough people non pre-made are bored with being farmed they will stop playing WZ's and the que will suffer anyway. It's pretty much the main pvp complaint i'm seeing. I think like another poster said Bio's just buying time for people to level and they'll probably make that 50 bracket change first then maybe that issue after.

 

I hope that instead of quitting, they will just form their team and even up the odds. That's my hope anyway because dividing the PVP population up with brackets and divisions isn't going to be good for the game when the subs dive.

[Lazorous]

I choose not to join those ladder clans in the FPS too, I play on a very large community of mixed player skills in my FPS games, it's friendly and not serious and fun. I see the games shift on both sides because the skills and teams constantly get mixed up. I don't rage in this game either, i just happen to see the bigger picture. It seems many of you appear threatened by the thought of losing your premade group in pvp facerolling chances should a system ever be implemented.

 

Yeah, but just because you "Choose" not to join them, doesn't mean others shouldn't, or should be penalized by YOUR decisions.

 

And fyi, I solo the majority of PvP because in my guild I'm the biggest pvp'er there. I've come across facerolls from pre-mades. The difference is, I understand that's how things work in these games and in real world situations, and I don't make a huge deal out of it.

 

And no, it's not apparent that you see the bigger picture. If you didn't you wouldn't be making these posts, because *Gasp*... these are Team based games...OMG!

Edited January 10, 2012 by Lazorous

[Ryvendale]

Or... if in game chat was built, that would make PUG'ing so much better and more efficient to coordinate.

[Kelticfury]

Or... if in game chat was built, that would make PUG'ing so much better and more efficient to coordinate.

 

in game voice should definitely be a part of every team play game in this era. to not include it was a real dumb move on the part of BW.

[Lazorous]

I hear my roommate who plays hockey in a C league complain about when the other team gets an A league group mixed in there all the time. It just destroys the game balance and they all wind up upset that they had to pay for it and the company who manages the pairings let it happen.

 

So it's not limited to MMOs either. And the team with the advantage never complains of course. Unfortunately they're usually more polite and well spoken than people in MMOs.

 

But we're not talking pro/elite leagues here. You're assuming that ALL premades are somehow trained SWTOR professionals or something. That's simply not the case. A lot of these people are simply friends and/or guildmates teaming together to coordinate.

 

It only appears to be a complete steamroll because the difference is the premade groups actually LISTEN to each other and learn the objectives of the game, whereas in Pugs, most people don't listen to you and want to do their own thing.

 

Understand the difference. When you get a random group that is good at listening and understands the objectives, it becomes VERY competitive for the other team. And in few cases, we have won premades because of that.

 

EDIT: I've also seen the other team claim our random group was a premade because we did so well against them. Just sayin.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Lazorous

[BattleCorgi]

Yeah, but just because you "Choose" not to join them, doesn't mean others shouldn't, or should be penalized by YOUR decisions.

 

Soooo... are you saying premades are being punished because random players don't want to play with them yet still want access to content they pay for? I don't see how choosing not to play against something with stacked odds is punishing the people stacking those odds.

[Ryvendale]

in game voice should definitely be a part of every team play game in this era. to not include it was a real dumb move on the part of BW.

 

 

Well, if/when they do add this feature, my voice better sound like my character's voice. Cuz mine is just to wimpy sounding to accurately depict the full effect of my masculine sexiness.

[BattleCorgi]

It only appears to be a complete steamroll because the difference is the premade groups actually LISTEN to each other and learn the objectives of the game, whereas in Pugs, most people don't listen to you and want to do their own thing.

 

Good point. I guess the chances of getting a good group that listens from the internet is less likely than RL though for sure. Ahh internet.. how I love and loathe you at the same time.

[Modecrypt]

Just like FPS games and all MMOs before... If you want to have a chance you need to get other people and organize.

[Lazorous]

Soooo... are you saying premades are being punished because random players don't want to play with them yet still want access to content they pay for? I don't see how choosing not to play against something with stacked odds is punishing the people stacking those odds.

 

No, if you read the complaints about premades you will see a lot of people wanting very specific scenarios to be made for premades, to make their solo lives easier.

 

For example, some suggests only allowing them to queue in a bracket with other premades. That's punishing the premades by making them wait in a potentially longer queue than everyone else.

 

Just one example out of many who can't deal with the idea of what happens in a team environment.

 

Get it/make sense?

Edited January 10, 2012 by Lazorous

[Kelticfury]

Soooo... are you saying premades are being punished because random players don't want to play with them yet still want access to content they pay for? I don't see how choosing not to play against something with stacked odds is punishing the people stacking those odds.

 

You have no way of knowing if you are going up against a premade, so if you chose not to queue out of fear that there maybe, might be, could be a premade on the other side, you are the only one to blame for missing the content that you chose not to participate in.

[quakereject]

 

The difference in valor/commendations between a win and a loss is minuscule anyway. I really don't understand why people are ************ so much.

 

Vs a *good* premade, no it's not. Vs a bunch of people who don't communicate but queue'd together, then sure I'll go there.. but it's less of a premade than the name would lead you to believe in that case.

 

A good premade will rip you apart, shank you in the rear, and make you not want to come out of your zonein or just leave the match. They'll focus defend people being attacked, and focus fire the hell out of your team leaving you with little opportunity to gain commendations.

 

Valor is valor, that's not what gets you pvp gear in the end, it just allows you to wear the higher stuff eventually. Comms are where it's at and when the premade team gets 6+ medals for even the lowest gaining member and your team's top contributor got 2-3, then the difference isn't minuscule at all, in fact it gets pretty large if they really curbstomp you.

 

However, premades happen one way or another, people find ways. Our republic friends just have 4-5 guilds full of people and require you to be in vent if you're grouped with them so they have premades by default. Some good, some terrible.. it's just easier when you can actually have the chance to work together rather than try to rally a WZ full of retarded children who don't care about objectives and chase that player that's down to 20% life halfway across the map just to get killed by their teammates.