wolveroach Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This game is the first that I have started out on a PvP server from the onset. That said, I remember this issue in WoW and it pissed me off then and I back the OP and other PvE players. Anybody who thinks it is cool to use this tactic is a tool and needs more than just a ticket submitted about them. Record the offender's name. On each and every planet you visit, see if that tool is on the same planet as you. If you encounter the tool and he is marked for PvP, tell Guild/General/Trade that the tool is in a specific area and likes to autoflag players for PvP. Don't spam, if someone is interested in helping the will send you a /w. Do not try to turn the tables if they aren't marked for PvP as that will get you in trouble. Hopefully enough people will make it their goal to ruin the tool's day. I know I would. I don't grief, hell I feel bad about ganking, but I love to grief the griefers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balraw Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Very well put. I'm actually someone who's grown to love PvP over the years. At first I was flustered by the adrenalin rush, and embarrassed and ashamed of myself. But in the course of playing EVE Online (I wanted spaceships, so HAD to take the PvP with it), AoC (lovely melee action) and more recently DCUO (highly appropriate open world villain v hero action), I actually LOVE PvP and couldn't imagine playing a game without it. To those who hate PvP, I'd say just dip your toes into it gradually, and don't worry about being embarrassed or people calling you names, just try it out every now and then at your leisure. EVENTUALLY you will get over being flustered by the adrenalin jag. At that point it's wonderful, because you still get the adrenalin jag, but part of you is calm enough to remember what keys to press, and to observe what your enemy is doing, etc. Then, it becomes HUGE fun! (Also, bear in mind that very few players are "born PvP-ers", everyone had to go throug periods where they were being killed more than they killed, it's the only way you learn. There's no shame in losing while you're learning. Invest in loss, as the Chinese say! ) By the same token, as someone who remembers what it's like to hate PvP, I dislike it when supposedly leet PvP-ers mock people who don't like PvP or are scared of it. Mocking such people is not a good way to get more people to PvP! I have posted several times in this thread about the issue of force flagging and over the course of those posts I may have given the impression that I don't like PvP. This is not true I am a dabbler in PvP and enjoy it as a diversion when I get a little bored with PvE stuff. Even spent a couple of years in Warhammer Online doing nothing but PvP and it is a lot of fun. However, it was something I chose to do and was never forced onto me as can currently happen to people who like me happen to play on a pve/rp server. If I was in a pvp zone on my server then I would have no grounds for complaint as I would be in effect consenting to pvp by being there but just going about my business in the pve area of the game and having some low life force pvp onto me is just plain wrong. Until a dev post otherwise I will continue to report people who do this to me as exploiting the system as it is clearly against the stated intent of a pve/rp as defined by this article in Biowares own support section. Edited January 13, 2012 by Balraw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahana Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Another great design feature in Rift. Man, there is a team not afraid to implement good ideas. They don't let things languish while they hem and haw, they just find a solution and f***ing do it. For whatever reason, it seems like some developers are timid because they don't want to rock the boat, or whatever. For that reason alone, I'd be playing that game if my friends weren't playing SWTOR. For the bold, talented and sensible dev team, I mean. I know it sounds like they are paying me to post, but I just want Bioware to take a lesson from them. If their DEV team can ever learn how to use a calculator I might consider playing it as a secondary.. They have a year sub from me to get their poo together.. But I seriously doubt if I'll return. They had 8 months before this game came out to garner my support.. With the amount of security issues they have had, they have pretty much lost whatever faith I had in them.. I mean seriously the whole flipping customer database.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Very well put. I'm actually someone who's grown to love PvP over the years. At first I was flustered by the adrenalin rush, and embarrassed and ashamed of myself. But in the course of playing EVE Online (I wanted spaceships, so HAD to take the PvP with it), AoC (lovely melee action) and more recently DCUO (highly appropriate open world villain v hero action), I actually LOVE PvP and couldn't imagine playing a game without it. To those who hate PvP, I'd say just dip your toes into it gradually, and don't worry about being embarrassed or people calling you names, just try it out every now and then at your leisure. EVENTUALLY you will get over being flustered by the adrenalin jag. At that point it's wonderful, because you still get the adrenalin jag, but part of you is calm enough to remember what keys to press, and to observe what your enemy is doing, etc. Then, it becomes HUGE fun! (Also, bear in mind that very few players are "born PvP-ers", everyone had to go throug periods where they were being killed more than they killed, it's the only way you learn. There's no shame in losing while you're learning. Invest in loss, as the Chinese say! ) By the same token, as someone who remembers what it's like to hate PvP, I dislike it when supposedly leet PvP-ers mock people who don't like PvP or are scared of it. Mocking such people is not a good way to get more people to PvP! I actually miss the adrenaline rush I used to get before I was more experienced in PvP. Sure, it makes you shaky and mess up, but it was a rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ampalaea Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I have an opposite problem..I were questing on Alderan as a republic player and I was killing some elites in thuls territory for a quest..those are friendly to Empire..so while I was fighting an elite mob an Empire player came and start healing the Elite!!eventually the elite killed me BUT the empire Player didn't Flagged for PVP!!!this is stupid in my opinion..and I could consider it exploit as it can ruin my game without he has to "risk" anything.. if he was flagged for pvp then I would have find him or other players maybe come there and kill him..but as it is now he can stay there and ruin our gaming experience even if we are 10 republic and he is one.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotaudi Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Name an MMO where catching an enemy player in an AoE, even if you were targeting an enemy with it first, does not throw you into PvP mode. Go ahead. That's just how it works. If they're flagged, anyone and anything can and will do damage to them. If you do damage to someone, you become flagged. Okay, Rift as well as others. Most properly designed mixed PvE/PvP systems make it so that, either by default or by toggling the appropriate option, you cannot do direct or indirect damage to an enemy player unless you are PvP flagged already. Without this, griefing morons can simply wait for an unsuspecting non-flagged player to start a fight with an NPC then simply wander into AoE range in order to flag the player and force them into involuntary PvP. In a properly designed system, to be flagged for PvP, you have to either turn on your PvP flag manually or you have to take a deliberate PvP related action, such as attacking specific NPCs that flag you or by healing/buffing a flagged ally. In Rift, if you set the appropriate option, not only can you not be involunarily flagged by attacking the wrong NPC or a flagged player, you cannot even heal or buff a flagged ally. In fact, you can't even CC a PvP flagging mob that is attacking you just so you can get away from it. So, no, that is not "just how it works." The bottom line is that if you roll on a PvE server, you are making a deliberate choice to engage in PvP only on a voluntary basis or avoid it altogether. Allowing people to damage a flagged player without making a deliberate choice to do so is poor game design on a PvE server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotaudi Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 If you see flagged players you should be paying attention and acting appropriately. I see no issue with this. If you start casting AoE's with them around, you're making a bad decision. They're hanging around flagged because they want PvP. If you don't, then don't hit them. Simple. I'm sorry but it's PvP and he's free to flag if he wants to, just as you're free to pay attention to what the heck you're doing and smartly avoid him. Garbage. If you are on a PvE server, it is irrelevant if someone else wants to PvP. The whole point of having separate PvP and PvE servers is to allow people who want to PvP to have their own environment to play their game style. When you roll on a PvE server, you are making a deliberate choice to PvP only when you choose to or to avoid it altogether. The fact that someone else can flag themself for PvP is utterly and completely irrelevant. If the player flagging for PvP wants to PvP with any random player, they can roll on a PvP server. In other words, when one person chooses to flag and another one does not, the first person's choice does not get to trump the latter's. This is the reason I will never, under any circumstances, play on a PvP server. I do not pay $15/mo to have someone else decide what I want to do. Suggesting that it is my responsibilty to watch for some moron who has flagged for PvP and is wanding into my AoEs so he can force me into involuntary PvP is ludicrous. If they are doing that, they are exploiting a poorly designed system and they are griefing. I guarantee you that, if this is happening, it will be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VorpalK Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Thank you for showing that. This means I can report the player for using an exploit to force me to PvP flag. If someone can be warned or suspended for getting items from Ilum prior to level 40 because it is considered an exploit, then forcing someone to PvP flag should also be considered as an exploit. So everyone, start reporting people for this exploit. That way Bioware can start fixing on this exploit. Absolutely correct. Exploiting in this manner should result in permaban and account wipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shama Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 About the healing thingy... Imagine your friend fighting an enemy and you just walk in and start healing him without your pvp flag being turned on. An enemy can't attack you and he can't even kill the guy he was fighting with because you are healing him. PVP system is just fine, people will whine about anything No, it's not fine - if you'd read this thread rather than jumped in with a half-thought out argument you might see that. As for your healing example, no-one here has said that a non-PvP player should be able to heal a PvP player so that doesn't work as a counter. Everyone who has a problem with the whole accidental PvP situation wants to have the choice: if I try and heal a PvP player then I am told I can't do it unless I become PvP, at that point I can make the decision on whether to flag for PvP and so heal them or not. From my earlier post, this warning should be given whenever you try to heal/res/direct-damage a PvP player. AoE should never damage a PvP player if you aren't PvP enabled yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shama Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Come on. Just be more careful and don't ask for devs to waste time on this because you cant be bothered to pay attention to what you are doing. That's right, keep an eye out for invisible griefers when using AoE, or maybe just never use AoE? Perfect solution without dev intervention /sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VorpalK Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Wow, we have sunk to the Pee Wee Herman 'I know you are but what am I?' mud slinging? Worthless huh? This really must be your 1st MMO. This exploit has been around since forever. I was ganked in Wow vanilla this way, in EQ2, in RIFT and a ton of times in WAR. I cursed myself for being sloppy, and mentally applauded the ganker for getting the upper hand. You need to let these things go so they don't get to the point where you are giving yourself an aneurysm because you are hitting nerd rage as a virtual toon is dying a false death. I think it is more damaging to your ego then your playstyle. Welcome to the shared world of MMOs. That's great that you "applauded" someone for griefing you. I guess I know what you aspire to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shama Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Every mechanic in MMO's exist for a reason, and very often it's because in other games the system was different and got exploited like crazy until it was changed. An excellent example of this is getting flagged for healing a flagged player. It just has to be that way, otherwise you will see players running around with heal-bots and those heal-bots will never flag or even attempt to attack another player, but still affect the outcome of fights. In Lineage 2 you had guilds build around bringing 1 or 2 power-levelled guys to a fight, each of them with 3 or 4 healers spamming heals on them constantly and making them literally unkillable. You couldn't kill the healers because they weren't flagged, and you couldn't kill the flagged players because they were getting hit with a constant stream of heals. But very easy to solve ... you can't heal a PvP player unless you are PvP yourself. If you try and heal you are told that you can't heal them, and how to flag yourself for PvP. It really isn't rocket science. AoE is the same way. If you didn't flag for throwing down AoE you could enter fights throwing out nothing but AoE and affect the outcome of those fights without taking any risk to yourself. How could you affect the fight if your AoE did no damage to PvP flagged enemies? You can't hurt allies with AoE so why should you be able to hurt PvP enemies if you've chosen not to PvP? And the devs can't make flagged player immune to your attacks, otherwise the only way to attack a flagged player would be for you to first flag, then attack. It would be pretty stupid to have a mechanic where, if someone's attacking your buddy, you first have to say "hold on, l gotta flag before I can help you out, hold on... oh nm you're dead already." Of course you can! How long does it take to type /pvp? If you are on a PvE server and your buddy is PvP then you as his buddy will have to expect he is going to be attacked at some point. Either you join him and flag yourself right away, or you wait until it happens, your choice. Try being aware of what's going on around you so you don't "accidently" flag. Yeah, be aware of those invisible players. Right. /sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Cruiser Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 It's because BioWare Austin is bad at what they do and should feel bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roane Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 who the hell says "why oh why". get a grip. You are seriously poking at the OPs wording? What, you can't think of any insults regarding the actual post content? Argue the merits, not the grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shama Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This actually brightens my day a bit. Not because some players are not appreciating the PvP mechanics, but that this option is available for others. Personally I think the game is far too safe.... SNIP PERSONAL TALE OF LOVE FOR PvP. That's great, I'm glad you found a way to enjoy the game. Now let this thread carry on so the devs can see that people who want to play PvE don't like how they've implemented the auto-flagging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykologist Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Rift. If you set the option, you cannot perform any action on a PvP flagged player (friendly or enemy) without toggling the option. And that game is doing just fine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balraw Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And that game is doing just fine! Off topic subject that has no place here. Thank you for your input but not relevant. Regardless of what rifts population is or is not doing it is worth pointing out that Trion, who like Bioware are new to the mmo market, but even so they worked out that force flagging is a problem and have a mechanic in place to prevent it on their pve servers. Of all the things that have come up since I started playing swtor this one is the only one that I consider a game breaker. No I am not going to quit just yet and I am more than willing to give them time to put a fix in place but I am not going to wait around indefinitely. I would love for a dev to step in here and explain things from their point of view but I expect its going to be a case of sticking their collective heads in the sand and ignoring the issue until it is buried on page 50 + of the forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VorpalK Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I agree that we need a definitive response from Bioware on this. Allowing the mechanic to exist when there are clear and well established methods to prevent it is unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abanoth Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) This is why PvE servers are a joke compared to PvP servers. Griefing is still around, except now it favors the guy who figures out how to bend the rules to his favor by doing stuff like this. I rolled a PvP server not because I like ganking or being ganked but so that I always knew where I stood with the other side. Edited January 13, 2012 by Abanoth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyricDawnhagen Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I just want to toss my agreement with the OP on this. On a PvE server, a player should not be able to hurt a player from the opposing faction unless both of you are flagged for PvP. I would even go so far as to require that a player be inside a town or base before they could flag themselves. That would stop the "surprise" PvP flagger. And to keep things fair, you also cannot help a flagged player of your own faction until either they unflag themselves or you set your own PvP flag. No damage, no heals, no buffs and no rezzes. I play on a PvE server because I do not want to PvP. I do want to commend Bioware for the 10 second countdown if you accidentally wander into a PvP area. I do understand why they make these areas PvP. i don't like it, but I can understand why they do that. So long as i know where they are, I can avoid them. So please Bioware, put a stop to the unwanted PvP flagging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfmiolleh Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Another " fix this now or I will stop playing" thread. Interesting. Anyways, I think anyone who "flags up" on a PvE server is a coward. They know they are and so does the rest of the entire community. They played safe at the lower levels then flag up and play bully games with others on their server. I think its sissy britches gaming but I wouldnt call it a must fix or quit issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ateius Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 According to a certain "Droid of Human-Cyborg Relations" who sent me an email concerning PvP issues, this is Bioware's Customer Service position: "If you would like the option of NOT automatically engaging in combat, you can opt to play on a PvE server, which will give you the OPTION of flagging yourself for PvP whenever you choose to engage members of the opposite faction." Now, from what I can gather from threads about this issue, players on PvE servers are, in fact, automatically being flagged for PvP due to AoE damage? Players on PvE servers are NOT being given the "option" to flag themselves, apart from running around gimped, or treating a PvE server as if it were potentially PvP? I am no longer amused by this issue, and consider myself bemused. Could we, pretty please, get an official response to the OP thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VorpalK Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 According to a certain "Droid of Human-Cyborg Relations" who sent me an email concerning PvP issues, this is Bioware's Customer Service position: "If you would like the option of NOT automatically engaging in combat, you can opt to play on a PvE server, which will give you the OPTION of flagging yourself for PvP whenever you choose to engage members of the opposite faction." Now, from what I can gather from threads about this issue, players on PvE servers are, in fact, automatically being flagged for PvP due to AoE damage? Players on PvE servers are NOT being given the "option" to flag themselves, apart from running around gimped, or treating a PvE server as if it were potentially PvP? I am no longer amused by this issue, and consider myself bemused. Could we, pretty please, get an official response to the OP thread? This needs to be addressed immediately. Clearly the CS folks don't know how to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VorpalK Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 This is why PvE servers are a joke compared to PvP servers. Griefing is still around, except now it favors the guy who figures out how to bend the rules to his favor by doing stuff like this. I rolled a PvP server not because I like ganking or being ganked but so that I always knew where I stood with the other side. I'll never play a game where that's my only option. I have no interest in being forced into that kind of gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollie Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'll never play a game where that's my only option. I have no interest in being forced into that kind of gameplay. This^ I don't mind pvping when I choose to, but accidentally being flagged on a pve server = dealbreaker for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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