chronomasakari Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 What if I want to PuG hard mode flashpoints? Hard modes weren't designed to be pugged at current gear levels. They take more practice then the normal mode operations. Eventually gear levels could be at a point where you could power through everything but it's not there yet, until then it's ill-advisable to pug hard modes, just like it's ill-advisable to run EV on nightmare with people you don't know. Point is, there's going to be a substantial amount of people wanting to play the game in the way you just said they shouldn't, not to mention the fact that I can't know whether or not I'm "pushing myself" as much as I could be without the existence of some kind of recount to establish a general consensus as to what is "good enough" to do whatever encounter. It's not even impossible to tell what your dps is. If you care that much, do the math. Figure out your rotation, and add up the numbers. You should come reasonably close to your actual dps extracted from a combat log. Once you figure out an ideal rotation, then your tracking your dps through recount is irrelevant because the only two ways to truly improve your dps after that is to 1) Give yourself as much dps time as possible and 2) Figure out what to do when your rotation gets interrupted. Neither of which you need to actively track your dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Edit: @ Setanian Ohhhhh yeah, you've actually got a real valid point there when you say MMO's have turned into carebear land compared to what they once were, and I'm really not exaggerating or trying to be sarcastic. Everquest in its prime makes all currently thriving MMO's (I know EQ1 is still around somehow) look like your little sister's copy of Nintendogs. Edited January 14, 2012 by ManuNegra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Sadly, Blizz has proven that this is how you create a billion-dollar-business, give people what they need to cut to the chase. This is exactly my problem. And note I said 'my' problem. I have to learn to co-habitate with the cut-to-the-chasers. In my mind, narrow as it may be, I call it cheating and the raid folks who use such tools will forever be cheaters who got through the content by cheating. Mind you, I'm sure they don't care what other people think either way once they get 'leet'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 As my tuppence worth. I've seen raid leaders analyze dps meters and decide that someone isn't dps'ing as good as other players in the raid. What ahppened, they kicvked them from the raid and eventually the guild. DPS meters may not be the cause of the evil, but they sure allow senior guild players to be complete jerks and destroy communities in favour of a number. For that reason alone, I think players should remember it's a game and play as such. DPs meters ruin games. People are posting saying they are defeating raid bosses...but with no meters. So what reason do you need them for? Hmmm, I dunno, this is like "guns don't kill people, people kill people." Sure, without the gun lying around it's less likely that it's gonna be picked up, but odds are that the person willing to pick up the gun is an a-hole you wouldn't want to hang out with IRL anyway though. Luckily the use of recount is nowhere near as grave as the use of guns, so if someone "picks up" a recount and uses to "shoot" someone you didn't think deserved it, you can vacate the premises and no one gets hurt haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itukaaj Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 No, at first I thought it would be useful but I can see no good coming out of it. Content is already being completed. The same jerks that kick you from their pug for greens won't giveyou the chance to put the numbers in. Any experienced "operator" will notice gross errors. As long as no hard enrage timers are added it's not an imperative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 This is exactly my problem. And note I said 'my' problem. I have to learn to co-habitate with the cut-to-the-chasers. In my mind, narrow as it may be, I call it cheating and the raid folks who use such tools will forever be cheaters who got through the content by cheating. Mind you, I'm sure they don't care what other people think either way once they get 'leet'. Fair enough, co-habitating with the cut-to-the-chasers might not even be all that necessary though, I'm willing to bet that there are enough people online with your mindset to get a decent number of groups and guilds together. But yeah I suppose that's sort of the perennial challenge as time goes on, individuals have to continuously ask themselves "do I like the way things are going?" and for more and more reasons as time goes on. Personally, I think it's just a matter of time until all MMO's and RPG's don't even use numerical stat values (at least not numbers that the player has access to), and the people who swear by meters to stroke to their epeens will be the ones on here going "Back in my day we had to yadda yadda yadda, and if you didn't put in the time to get X Y and Z before raiding you didn't even get to go!" As opposed to "Back in my day we had to take the time to talk and figure out for ourselves what was going wrong". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryzyra Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 This is exactly my problem. And note I said 'my' problem. I have to learn to co-habitate with the cut-to-the-chasers. In my mind, narrow as it may be, I call it cheating and the raid folks who use such tools will forever be cheaters who got through the content by cheating. Mind you, I'm sure they don't care what other people think either way once they get 'leet'. It's a reasonable position. Like I consider anyone who uses flytext or tooltips to be cheating and playing easymode. My friend is pretty hardcore - he plays blindfolded without sound. I felt bad when my friend was mocking me for needing crutches like sight, but then I saw a guy on forums who had been playing while dead for the past 3 years. We agreed that was pretty hardcore and something to aspire to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) It's a reasonable position. Like I consider anyone who uses flytext or tooltips to be cheating and playing easymode. My friend is pretty hardcore - he plays blindfolded without sound. I felt bad when my friend was mocking me for needing crutches like sight, but then I saw a guy on forums who had been playing while dead for the past 3 years. We agreed that was pretty hardcore and something to aspire to.Just when you thought it was safe to have an opinion someone has to unzip their fly and wave it around like a conquest flag. You kids have fun . . . I'm going to go play the game. Edited January 14, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hard modes weren't designed to be pugged at current gear levels. They take more practice then the normal mode operations. Eventually gear levels could be at a point where you could power through everything but it's not there yet, until then it's ill-advisable to pug hard modes, just like it's ill-advisable to run EV on nightmare with people you don't know. It's not even impossible to tell what your dps is. If you care that much, do the math. Figure out your rotation, and add up the numbers. You should come reasonably close to your actual dps extracted from a combat log. Once you figure out an ideal rotation, then your tracking your dps through recount is irrelevant because the only two ways to truly improve your dps after that is to 1) Give yourself as much dps time as possible and 2) Figure out what to do when your rotation gets interrupted. Neither of which you need to actively track your dps. Eh, as for pugging hard-modes I was trying more to make a point than I was trying to say that's the way it should be. Like I said in an earlier post though, I have enough to think about IRL and don't want to bust out my calculator and crunch numbers over a game, but I DO care enough to want to know if I'm contributing the maximum output possible. So yeah, it's easy to make the accusation that that's just laziness on my part or something, but I think most people would agree it's not an unreasonable laziness and thus not necessarily lazy. It's just more convenient is all really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuNegra Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 My last comment on the matter: Recount, for good or for ill, exists in the world and is going to be expected by a large % of people who play games in this genre, and it has valid uses that don't necessarily compromise the game's integrity for everyone else. Pandora doesn't go back in the box! If you want to say that recount shouldn't be included just because it enables a statistically motivated brand of elitism, well then you could easily make the case that MMO's themselves enable a statistically motivated brand of elitism, as people seem to not hesitate to jump on here and chew each other out/put each other down over something that would probably make them good friends if they were to meet IRL. Now, that's obviously taking the issue a little too far, but my point is that the "enabling" line of thought doesn't hold water from a design perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allmightyprom Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Game will be better off when you are able to tell who is slacking and who isnt. Simple as that tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magwa Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 No! Absolutely not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chosenxeno Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'm for anything that will make the game more accessible and appealing to more people. This is one of them. /signed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivenCsky Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 No to recount. No to Gear Score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 It's a reasonable position. Like I consider anyone who uses flytext or tooltips to be cheating and playing easymode. My friend is pretty hardcore - he plays blindfolded without sound. I felt bad when my friend was mocking me for needing crutches like sight, but then I saw a guy on forums who had been playing while dead for the past 3 years. We agreed that was pretty hardcore and something to aspire to. Ah, I think you managed well enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Tanks know when they are losing aggro the same way healers know somone is standing in the stuff. All a tank has to do is see the first steps of a mob's change of direction and it will be pretty apparent who it's going after. this would mean a wipe in most encounters i've been in. the second a boss's attention wavers even for a split second it means part of your raid is dead. which would explain exactly why recount is necessary in such a context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worstluck Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Nah, no damage meters, recount, any of that. I would like a combat log though. However, I would like it if data could not be pulled from it. Only for personal use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 This is exactly my problem. And note I said 'my' problem. I have to learn to co-habitate with the cut-to-the-chasers. In my mind, narrow as it may be, I call it cheating and the raid folks who use such tools will forever be cheaters who got through the content by cheating. Mind you, I'm sure they don't care what other people think either way once they get 'leet'. not cheating is adding up your damage manually, counting all the numbers that fly over your head and then breaking out your TI-85 and punching the buttons rather than letting the game count them for you. you are narrow to the point of being a troll. that doesn't even make any sense whatsoever. eat with your hands, because you're cheating using utensils to accomplish the feat of feeding yourself. :| this guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganelon Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 not cheating is adding up your damage manually, counting all the numbers that fly over your head and then breaking out your TI-85 and punching the buttons rather than letting the game count them for you. TI-85? You can't be serious! Unless you're using an abacus, you're not doing it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 TI-85? You can't be serious! Unless you're using an abacus, you're not doing it right. oh, my bad. the honest truth of the matter is, you can't be the boss of a company where everyone you employ takes calls from home, and then have no metrics whatsoever about who is taking how many calls. it simply is not going to fly as a business. hire 40 people to work from home with a quota of 4000 units sold per month TOTAL and you get no metrics on who sold how many units or who made how many calls. i guarantee you the units will not get sold. by adding a simple tracking of who made the calls and sold the units, you can easily find out who is sitting on their laurels watching sabador gigante all day instead of working. so. simple. the people who don't want recount are the people who want to smoke weed on their couch all day and still collect a paycheck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hy_C Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Someone told me it's terrible form to cross-post. It's also terrible form to weigh down your raid group because you can't do enough dps. Oh yah forgot one more thing. Most people in this thread are *********** clueless so let me fill you in. Let's take the current ONLY impossible fight in the game: Soa, the Infernal One, on nightmare mode. This thread details why is it impossible: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=147413 Note where you have to meet utterly IMPOSSIBLE DPS requirements over a set period of time to even come close to killing the boss. This is why universal combat logs are necessary. If I'm playing and achieving 2.2k DPS over 20 seconds (it's actually impossible at the moment, but I digress) and everyone else it apart from 1 person who is doing 1.1k DPS I have a bloody right to know who that complete *********** moron is so I can either tell him to DPS properly, or get the **** out of my progression - aiming for World Firsts - guild. Let's take a completely doable fight, Commander Jorland in Boarding Party: The engineer has no aggro table and 90,000 hp~ The medic has an aggro table and 90,000 hp~ Commander Jorland has 120,000 hp~ The enrage is 150 seconds: 400,000 / 2666.66 2666.66 / 3 (2 dps + 1 tank) = 888.88 Now this is a tightly tuned enrage, which also requires interrupts on the Medic (else he gets healed) and exceptional healing. If you wipe to the enrage there are multiple reasons why: 1) Interrupts on medic weren't occuring, meaning he was taking longer to kill 2) DPS wasn't high enough 3) Healing didn't allow DPS to properly rotate their max DPS rotation 4) People weren't focusing properly 5) Someone died - out of their own stupidity/healing issue That's 5 reasons why a boss didn't die due to a strict enrage. A global combat log, thus something designed like Skada (Skada) would help identify the reason. Skada has these different modes: - Damage done, - DPS, Threat, - Enemy damage done, - Enemy damage taken, - Healing, Overhealing, - Total healing, - Absorbs estimated, - Damage taken, Dispels, - Mana regen, - Debuff uptimes, - Activity There is only 1 reason why people wouldn't want something like Skada in this game: they don't want their DPS to be recognised. If someone said to me "your DPS will be too low" I'd say to them, as a good player, "take me and let me wipe the floor with you." I know I'm good, I know a combat log would show I'm good, thus I'm not afraid of a combat log being added into the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubmania Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I don't support any sort of damage meter. This makes the game far less entertaining for me when I have to deal with people flaunting their e-peen or criticizing my DPS or HPS. I don't feel like typing a lot, but quite simply...I don't support this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racsofp Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 the people who don't want recount are the people who want to smoke weed on their couch all day and still collect a paycheck.I love internet forums. Only here can you find ridiculous things like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I love internet forums. Only here can you find ridiculous things like this. someone doesn't understand analogy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) this would mean a wipe in most encounters i've been in. the second a boss's attention wavers even for a split second it means part of your raid is dead. which would explain exactly why recount is necessary in such a context.Not if the tank is smart and holds taunts or aggro bombs in reserve. Unless of course the mob/boss is untauntable, which changes everything and makes healers nervous. Besides, wouldn't that be more of a threat meter function? I've had the pleasure of tanking for DPSers that blew up Recount in their sleep but had the discipline to cool their jets after realizing they were prone to drawing too much attention. Dead damage dealers deal zero damage - with or without Recount. Edited January 14, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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