Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Hy_C]

Way to go to drag a post by someone else from another thread into this one. Aint you leet !

 

Using a brain that I was given I realized that this quote can answer many things this thread as brought up! If only you were as leet as I.

[GalacticKegger]

Combat log is a combat log. It's an accurate log of everything that happened during combat, nothing more, nothing less.

It doesn't provide the answers. If it did, every guild should be able to kill every boss. Just looking at WoW should tell you that this isn't the case.

Actually I was defining in nebulous terms the difference between a legit tool and a cheat. As I've posted previously I am in favor of a combat log because it's a great homework tool.

[gregordunbar]

I support Recount because I only group with guildmates and they are not total ****face elitists like you get grouping with random epeen waving ***wipes who think they are the **** even though they are pugging...we wouldnt use it, we play with people we LIKE, not people who can do .017 more DPS than the next guy.

 

And, because I always support more OPTIONS no matter what, for real, no joke...anyone that doesnt like more options in an online game is out of their mind...its a OPTION, dont use it if you dont like it.

 

See, I played both sides even though I actually DO support Recount.

[mikphobos]

For a game that plan to have a PVE raid as endgame.. and that will add enrage timers and multiple levels of difficulty on it, is very important to have a meter of some sort, just for allow the players to know, whats going on with them.

 

this is not about be elitist, this is about be able to improve so you and your group can give the numbers and kill the boss..

without a tool that tell you this, the only that they are promoting in that people be lazy, that they dont try to improve in any way. and just be constantly thinking WHO IS THE WEAK LINK. and this in the long run, will end in internal discussions for all guilds that want to progress in PVE endgame and are *serious* about it.

 

im not asking for a recount, i am asking for a damage meter. or a combat log, that can show if not all, at least myself what am i doing, so i can work in get better. but the true is that, in all PVE environment with multiple levels of difficulty and enrage timers its mandatory! to have a meter, plain and simple

[Setanian]

The vic20 released in 80/81; it's a personal computer. GORF released for it in 82

 

the vectrex was also out in 82.

 

there were games on the PET (released in 77), but I didn't play them. I understand that it had space invaders.

 

Ok, but I was meaning online...

 

I wrote my first program in '79

[GalacticKegger]

Better analogy would be a basketball team trying to improve without having accurate data of their performance.

I get the study and improvement part - I really do. Honest. I support the use of a combat log. Scout's honor. Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[racsofp]

I hope they never get tools and addons like this only because I find it fascinating to watch some self proclaimed hardcore elite players say the game is unplayable without these tools while at the same exact time other players are in fact playing the game and clearing content. Edited January 13, 2012 by racsofp

[Setanian]

Using a brain that I was given I realized that this quote can answer many things this thread as brought up! If only you were as leet as I.

 

I don't necro or cross post. It's seen as bad form on a forum.

 

You copy and pasted that post by someone else multiple times in that other thread which in itself is bad form, so leave it there.

[NetFu]

I don't care, but would use something like Recount in SWTOR just for my own purposes to try out different playing strategies.

 

Of course, that would only useful if I'm looking at total damage or the damage of certain abilities. Other than that, Recount is pretty useless. So, most of my play time it would be useless/unused.

 

Not to mention that it's even more useless if you don't have something like a target dummy to give you consistent numbers. So, target dummies that would be useful for every level.

 

So, bottom line: don't care either way, but it's a low priority compared to a lot of things in this game.

[GalacticKegger]

No but without recount you can't even write the book! I know I'm mostly just playing on the analogy here, but you have to admit it's a little more complicated than the distinctions that define cheating in other types of games.

 

And now that I think about it, we're honestly fooling ourselves if we think Bioware's not going to introduce some kind of combat log and recount feature, so like it or not it's gonna come down to a question of shape up or ship out at the end of the day.

LOL . . I've already voted aye for a combat log. How is it that unbiased logic keeps getting misconstrued as a nay vote? Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[ManuNegra]

I am in no way against personal add ons that show *you* what you are doing. But, by a raid leader having an active meter showing every players and what they are doing they are now in a position to dictate the outcome.

 

Well, I suppose I should have said this but, in my mind the opportunity to lead a group or raid is a potential part of the game (potentially huge), at which point I would appreciate feedback on other people's numbers, as (by extension) their performance is part of my experience with the game.

 

Whether or not I use those numbers to be an elitist douche is another matter entirely, one that's likely to gain me a certain kind of reputation (hence why I wouldn't do it, is what I'm implying).

 

I personally have had to explain to an entire raid group before that we wiped because X person did Y thing wrong, and when you have numbers to back it up, it really does a lot for morale when you're trying to justify another attempt at the fight you just failed. Perfect example of how recount is a tool that can be used constructively, and not just to further the elitist mentality you mentioned.

[ManuNegra]

How is it that unbiased logic gets misconstrued as a nay vote?

 

Because it's the internet and you have to take people's opinions by the words they type out. Is there a way to read the scenario you described as not being a nay vote?

[ManuNegra]

I get the study and improvement part - I really do. Honest. I support the use of a combat log. Scout's honor.

 

Sounds like I'm not the only one you confused then....

[ManuNegra]

I support Recount because I only group with guildmates and they are not total ****face elitists like you get grouping with random epeen waving ***wipes who think they are the **** even though they are pugging...we wouldnt use it, we play with people we LIKE, not people who can do .017 more DPS than the next guy.

 

And, because I always support more OPTIONS no matter what, for real, no joke...anyone that doesnt like more options in an online game is out of their mind...its a OPTION, dont use it if you dont like it.

 

See, I played both sides even though I actually DO support Recount.

 

Yeah see, whenever I've raided it's been a similar environment, it's a given that you're gonna play with people you like, in which case the numbers are going to be used to HELP you and the guild, not foster exclusivity. If you're guild uses it to foster exclusivity then they're gonna do that no matter what tools you give them to do that.

 

So for me it's like, "ah crap we just lost that fight, how can we improve?" Not "OMGZORZ WE LOST SOMEONE'S A BADDY KICK KICK KICK"

[chronomasakari]

Don't pug hard mode flashpoints or hard/nightmare mode operations and you don't need a dps meter.

 

The end.

 

Normal operations are very friendly on the enrage timers making them puggable thus not needing a dps meter.

 

Hard/nightmare modes are designed to be done with organized groups, thus, also, not needing a dps meter. You should *always* be looking to improve your own game, you don't need a meter to push yourself to perform better in progression content, if you do you are far too reliant on mods anyway.

 

And besides there is a more important factor then sheer dps to judge how well a dps is doing, it's how stupid they are with standing in void zones. If you wanna know if a dps is worth raiding with, ask the healer how bad often they had to get healed because they stood through void zones.

[GalacticKegger]

Because it's the internet and you have to take people's opinions by the words they type out. Is there a way to read the scenario you described as not being a nay vote?

Mine was but the continuance of an analogy presented to me. I think the confusion lies in joining halfway through it.

 

Here's where it started 20+ pages ago . . .

As I've posted before, I'm not against the use of addons as long they don't become a defining element of the game's combat mechanics. Combat logs are a must for progression guilds, though few who claim to be actually are. DPS meters are best suited for target dummies where practice does not make perfect - perfect practice makes perfect. If perfection in min/maxing is something one aspires to, cool. Just leave it on the range. Our mantra was always raid like you practice, don't practice while you raid.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Setanian]

Well, I suppose I should have said this but, in my mind the opportunity to lead a group or raid is a potential part of the game (potentially huge), at which point I would appreciate feedback on other people's numbers, as (by extension) their performance is part of my experience with the game.

 

Whether or not I use those numbers to be an elitist douche is another matter entirely, one that's likely to gain me a certain kind of reputation (hence why I wouldn't do it, is what I'm implying).

 

I personally have had to explain to an entire raid group before that we wiped because X person did Y thing wrong, and when you have numbers to back it up, it really does a lot for morale when you're trying to justify another attempt at the fight you just failed. Perfect example of how recount is a tool that can be used constructively, and not just to further the elitist mentality you mentioned.

 

I agree with most of this in the main.

 

I predominantly raided on EQ1 I was a tank. When we raided, we had a tank, dps, healer and RL channel. As Tank I had rights to say whatever I needed in which ever channel.

 

As the tank, it was my job to maintain aggro/threat and to position the mob. It was also my job to let the other tanks know when to tank swap, let the healers know there was in incoming tank swap. I let the dps people know when to back off, or screamed at them for trying out threat me.

 

I also kept the heal chain informed of how the heals were going. Do I need a faster heal chain or can they relax a little and heal the dps'ers.

 

I can swear I never used any meter or any add-on to help me with all of this.

 

Thing is/was, we trusted each member to be the best they could be at that particular moment in time. We trusted the RL to tell the dps when to back off, and to generally manage the raid encounter.

 

If I was losing aggro/threat, there 3 possible reasons; 1. my gear was sup par and not procing as much as I needed, 2. The dps were just going nuts, 3. I was not up to the standard required for that encounter.

 

If 1. I got better gear the more DP (Dragon points) I earned. if 2. I yelled at the dps to cool it. if 3. I was either below par because of RL issues, had a cold, or was simply not up to raiding that night. In which case, it was expected, I'd say, guys ya know what, I'm flecked, I'm taking a break.

 

The trust is gone now. It's no longer a game. The RL has these tools to help him watch each individual and guild kick them just because they weren't 'leet' enough to help him win every encounter.

 

If you are winning every encounter there is no challenge. If you are losing every encounter, you are all as a raid force sub-par to the content. Every encounter should never be about just one person, it should be about the entire raid force.

[Rollcageuk]

As my tuppence worth.

 

I've seen raid leaders analyze dps meters and decide that someone isn't dps'ing as good as other players in the raid.

What ahppened, they kicvked them from the raid and eventually the guild.

 

DPS meters may not be the cause of the evil, but they sure allow senior guild players to be complete jerks and destroy communities in favour of a number.

 

For that reason alone, I think players should remember it's a game and play as such. DPs meters ruin games.

 

People are posting saying they are defeating raid bosses...but with no meters. So what reason do you need them for?

[ManuNegra]

Don't pug hard mode flashpoints or hard/nightmare mode operations and you don't need a dps meter.

 

The end.

 

Normal operations are very friendly on the enrage timers making them puggable thus not needing a dps meter.

 

Hard/nightmare modes are designed to be done with organized groups, thus, also, not needing a dps meter. You should *always* be looking to improve your own game, you don't need a meter to push yourself to perform better in progression content, if you do you are far too reliant on mods anyway.

 

And besides there is a more important factor then sheer dps to judge how well a dps is doing, it's how stupid they are with standing in void zones. If you wanna know if a dps is worth raiding with, ask the healer how bad often they had to get healed because they stood through void zones.

 

What if I want to PuG hard mode flashpoints? This is really all just "I think it should be played this way versus that way." Now don't get me wrong, not saying that makes it useless, in fact it's just the opposite. We come on here, talk about this, and (hopefully) BW determines whether or not consumer will justifies the addition of such and such feature, but that's beside the point.

 

Point is, there's going to be a substantial amount of people wanting to play the game in the way you just said they shouldn't, not to mention the fact that I can't know whether or not I'm "pushing myself" as much as I could be without the existence of some kind of recount to establish a general consensus as to what is "good enough" to do whatever encounter.

 

Basically, the only way individual numbers can be relevant is to know other people's numbers, and having the numbers opens up a greater variety of ways to play the game, ultimately drawing in a larger number of customers (at least that's the goal).

[ManuNegra]

Mine was but the continuance of an analogy presented to me. I think the confusion lies in joining halfway through it.

 

Here's where it started 20+ pages ago . . .

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Ah thanks, ya you got me there, I definitely haven't been in this thread the entire 80+ pages it's at now.

 

You know, this whole thing reminds me a lot of the debate going on in the media about whether or not certain athletes are "cheating" by getting experimental treatments for their injuries (non-FDA approved procedures, specifically). Their definition of cheating is anything that violates "the spirit of good sportsmanship." A vague distinction though it may be (it's like, "I may not be able to describe hardcore *********** but I know it when I see it), it's surprisingly elegant in that it acknowledges that something is only "cheating" if it "feels wrong."

 

Recount is like good science, which itself can be used for things that "feel" right or wrong, people just have to call it like they see it as far as determining which uses are "bad." I think it's a purely objective tool and should be included then, is what I guess I'm saying. Btw I realize now you weren't necessarily arguing for or against any of these points, now I'm more just going off on my own thing, thanks for the clarification though

[wikimon]

As the tank, it was my job to maintain aggro/threat and to position the mob. It was also my job to let the other tanks know when to tank swap, let the healers know there was in incoming tank swap. I let the dps people know when to back off, or screamed at them for trying out threat me.

 

I also kept the heal chain informed of how the heals were going. Do I need a faster heal chain or can they relax a little and heal the dps'ers.

 

how would you even know they were "out threating" you? you don't know how much damage they are doing

 

also

 

quit describing 2003 encounters as if they're even relevant to MMO gaming nowadays. they're not

[Setanian]

how would you even know they were "out threating" you? you don't know how much damage they are doing

 

You've never been a tank huh?

[GalacticKegger]

how would you even know they were "out threating" you? you don't know how much damage they are doing

 

also

 

quit describing 2003 encounters as if they're even relevant to MMO gaming nowadays. they're not

Tanks know when they are losing aggro the same way healers know somone is standing in the stuff. All a tank has to do is see the first steps of a mob's change of direction and it will be pretty apparent who it's going after. Edited January 14, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[ManuNegra]

I agree with most of this in the main.

 

I predominantly raided on EQ1 I was a tank. When we raided, we had a tank, dps, healer and RL channel. As Tank I had rights to say whatever I needed in which ever channel.

 

As the tank, it was my job to maintain aggro/threat and to position the mob. It was also my job to let the other tanks know when to tank swap, let the healers know there was in incoming tank swap. I let the dps people know when to back off, or screamed at them for trying out threat me.

 

I also kept the heal chain informed of how the heals were going. Do I need a faster heal chain or can they relax a little and heal the dps'ers.

 

I can swear I never used any meter or any add-on to help me with all of this.

 

Thing is/was, we trusted each member to be the best they could be at that particular moment in time. We trusted the RL to tell the dps when to back off, and to generally manage the raid encounter.

 

If I was losing aggro/threat, there 3 possible reasons; 1. my gear was sup par and not procing as much as I needed, 2. The dps were just going nuts, 3. I was not up to the standard required for that encounter.

 

If 1. I got better gear the more DP (Dragon points) I earned. if 2. I yelled at the dps to cool it. if 3. I was either below par because of RL issues, had a cold, or was simply not up to raiding that night. In which case, it was expected, I'd say, guys ya know what, I'm flecked, I'm taking a break.

 

The trust is gone now. It's no longer a game. The RL has these tools to help him watch each individual and guild kick them just because they weren't 'leet' enough to help him win every encounter.

 

If you are winning every encounter there is no challenge. If you are losing every encounter, you are all as a raid force sub-par to the content. Every encounter should never be about just one person, it should be about the entire raid force.

 

Hey man, from a purist standpoint , the type of game you're describing sounds AWESOME (I only ever played EQ at a friend's place and so never got into any kind of raiding with it, but I am familiar with what it was like to raid in EQ). It's really all about numbers though, not many people have the will to gut it out to that extent in anything really, let alone a video game.

 

Sadly, Blizz has proven that this is how you create a billion-dollar-business, give people what they need to cut to the chase. All I'm saying is that, unfortunate as this is, it's not all that bad and the odds are that you can still find some people you want to play with. And that recount has some obvious merits, but I think I've already firmly established that that's the side I'm on lol

[Setanian]

quit describing 2003 encounters as if they're even relevant to MMO gaming nowadays. they're not

 

Is 2010 recent enough?

 

But I realize, you are correct in a way, this care bear raiding you guys describe, is a completely different type of raiding. We did it on our own, you need tools.

 

Whatever floats your boat I guess. I prefer challenge over easy mode.