Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Setanian]

My point was and please try to keep up, that the VAST majority of players who raid use a DPS meter, and a very very very small minority have killed the hardest bosses.

 

Can you comprehend what this means?

 

It means- the meter is not helping anybody kill the boss.

 

Hang on a second, and don't worry I can keep up with you in my sleep.

 

You said earlier you played very little WoW, and now you're telling us what the percentages are of who has done what?

 

Additionally, let's divide the millions of players by that percentage and see what the actual numbers are.

 

Also! You seem unable to think about the fact that maybe, just maybe the encounter is so far beyond the current players ability as to be almost impossible but the very very best geared players.

[Soulkan]

Oh please is this really the best you can come up with?

 

What you trying to make possible is that not only can you analyze what went wrong raid/group/make-up wise, but now you want all the figures to help you too.

 

I really, really expected more than this.

 

How can you analyze what went wrong without having the numbers?

 

Numbers dictate everything in combat. We're not talking about people standing in fire here.

 

Also, parsers will be here as soon as the combat log is in. It wasn't a design feature to leave it out. We had it in beta.

 

BW has stated that they wanted to look at the numbers first before letting us see them because they wanted to make sure everything was balanced.

[Happylol]

Hang on a second, and don't worry I can keep up with you in my sleep.

 

You said earlier you played very little WoW, and now you're telling us what the percentages are of who has done what?

 

Additionally, let's divide the millions of players by that percentage and see what the actual numbers are.

 

Also! You seem unable to think about the fact that maybe, just maybe the encounter is so far beyond the current players ability as to be almost impossible but the very very best geared players.

 

I played WoW for 7 + years... not sure where you are getting the first bit from.

 

The numbers are a COMPLETE guess from my experience, and could be off. The point of them still stands though.

 

I am not talking about the encounter being difficult... My point was that all the top 10000 guilds(this is not correct) in WoW have the same gear and DPS meters, yet only 300 of them can complete it.

 

This basically means two things. Either the other guilds have more time, or they are better players.

[Lady_Femke]

^^^

 

Honestly anyone who is against having it (and I mean against, not doesn't care, or wouldn't use) is just scared that they will be called out for afk dpsing as I like to call it.

 

Fear is the only logical reason someone would be against having this in the game.

 

It has nothing to do with fear, that's just a presumption on your part. I am not scared of using them, my guild and I do in WoW, (yes I play both games).

 

But I watched WoW jerks take a perfectly good tool and turn it into a large baseball bat to beat others around the head with. You can talk all you like about how it's used to analyze this and that and all the rest of it, and in a guild environment it is used in that way.

 

Outside of guilds or friends groups it is invariably used by willy wavers who hit the best dps on one or two mobs, or they totally ourtgear the level of instance they are fighting in, and spam the group with their superhuman prowes and little willie. Often then picking on someone else who didn't do so well on the mobs and calling them out or trying to vote kick or whatever. They create bad feeling in small groups of players which then often degenerates into a slagging match and people leaving, often the innocent parties who then have to suffer a deserter debuff for 30 minutes, while the crapppy player goes straight back into another dungeon.

 

I am not scared you silly presumptious person I am annoyed at jerks who more often than not are the first to wave their willies in PUGS.

 

You want recount style meters? Fine, I don't know if its at all possible, but make it so they only work in a group of more than 75% guildies and you have my blessing. Outside of a guild environment they should never be used as the abuse factor is too great.

[Setanian]

How can you analyze what went wrong without having the numbers?

 

Numbers dictate everything in combat. We're not talking about people standing in fire here.

 

Also, parsers will be here as soon as the combat log is in. It wasn't a design feature to leave it out. We had it in beta.

 

BW has stated that they wanted to look at the numbers first before letting us see them because they wanted to make sure everything was balanced.

 

Now that is really funny.

 

I'm actually getting bored now with this. Here's a scenario

 

Crybabies need 400dps per player to beat this boss A. Crybaby goes looking for 3 others to help him. Crybaby knows he has 410dps.

 

Applicant 1: My dos is 350

Crybaby: Baddie get the f*** away to baddie school

Applicant 2: My dos is 405

Crybaby: You can join

Applicant 3: My dps is 245

Crybaby: ***! SCREAM! BADDIE F*** OFF

Applicant 4: My dps is 423

Crybaby: you can join

Applicant 5: My dps is 299

Crybaby: FFS! NEWBZ

Applicant 6: My dps is 500

Crybaby: Hussah! You can join.

 

Now crybaby can bring down the boss and guarantee a win (barring natural disaster)

 

That is cheating. crybaby has ensured he can win. He has all the aces, the boss cannot beat him.

 

Now. In God's great name, what oh what, is the point in doing that! Why does anyone want to pay to play a game they cannot lose?

[souloferdrick]

Now that is really funny.

 

I'm actually getting bored now with this. Here's a scenario

 

Crybabies need 400dps per player to beat this boss A. Crybaby goes looking for 3 others to help him. Crybaby knows he has 410dps.

 

Applicant 1: My dos is 350

Crybaby: Baddie get the f*** away to baddie school

Applicant 2: My dos is 405

Crybaby: You can join

Applicant 3: My dps is 245

Crybaby: ***! SCREAM! BADDIE F*** OFF

Applicant 4: My dps is 423

Crybaby: you can join

Applicant 5: My dps is 299

Crybaby: FFS! NEWBZ

Applicant 6: My dps is 500

Crybaby: Hussah! You can join.

 

Now crybaby can bring down the boss and guarantee a win (barring natural disaster)

 

That is cheating. crybaby has ensured he can win. He has all the aces, the boss cannot beat him.

 

Now. In God's great name, what oh what, is the point in doing that! Why does anyone want to pay to play a game they cannot lose?

 

That's not cheating. It is certainly stacking the deck in ones favor but that's that individuals prerogative.

[Soulkan]

Now that is really funny.

 

I'm actually getting bored now with this. Here's a scenario

 

Crybabies need 400dps per player to beat this boss A. Crybaby goes looking for 3 others to help him. Crybaby knows he has 410dps.

 

Applicant 1: My dos is 350

Crybaby: Baddie get the f*** away to baddie school

Applicant 2: My dos is 405

Crybaby: You can join

Applicant 3: My dps is 245

Crybaby: ***! SCREAM! BADDIE F*** OFF

Applicant 4: My dps is 423

Crybaby: you can join

Applicant 5: My dps is 299

Crybaby: FFS! NEWBZ

Applicant 6: My dps is 500

Crybaby: Hussah! You can join.

 

Now crybaby can bring down the boss and guarantee a win (barring natural disaster)

 

That is cheating. crybaby has ensured he can win. He has all the aces, the boss cannot beat him.

 

Now. In God's great name, what oh what, is the point in doing that! Why does anyone want to pay to play a game they cannot lose?

 

I'm done responding after this.

 

 

Your example(lol) is ridiculous. You just said it's cheating to not let players who need to be carried in a raiding guild.

[Setanian]

I'm done responding after this.

 

 

Your example(lol) is ridiculous. You just said it's cheating to not let players who need to be carried in a raiding guild.

 

The use of (lol) tells me all I need to know.

[Hairless]

I would rather argue with my neighbor's retarded dog than Setanian.

[Setanian]

That's not cheating. It is certainly stacking the deck in ones favor but that's that individuals prerogative.

 

Please, tell me when stacking the deck in your favor to guarantee a win is not cheating. I'm 48 years old, I've travelled most of the world, I've fought overseas and I've read lots. I'm pretty worldly if I say so myself, but I have never heard of this.

[Setanian]

I would rather argue with my neighbor's retarded dog than Setanian.

 

Of course you would, you might even win sometime.

[Happylol]

I would rather argue with my neighbor's retarded dog than Setanian.

 

LMAO holy ****.

[ManuNegra]

Anyone who thinks that recount will detract from this game's playability is just worried that they may have to TRY at some point. If you've ever played in a scenario where you were held accountable for your performance via Recount then you'd realize what a blessing it can be, and that 99.999% of people you're gonna play with are not the kind of d-bags who are going to kick you because they want to see that % just a few points higher by your name.

 

It's great for telling when someone's doing something like, say, afk-ing during fights, on account of the fact that people can easily lie to defend themselves from that kind of accusation. If you see someone standing around in a flashpoint, then ask them if they're afk-ing, all they have to do is say "no" and then you look like an a-hole for booting that person (if you do). With recount, just pull up the numbers and say, "what happened in that fight?" If they don't have a legit response then you know they're just lying to/sponging off you.

 

This is especially important in determining whether or not you want to take someone on your guild runs, since no one wants to get gear for people who are not contributing. And before you start saying, "Oh but now people are going to say you need x dps to even play with me", just know that those people are out there and they'll be like that no matter what systems of data representation your game uses. In fact from the sound of things on these boards, they're mostly leaving this game anyway, so I doubt you'll have much to worry about there.

[Setanian]

Anyone who thinks that recount will detract from this game's playability is just worried that they may have to TRY at some point. If you've ever played in a scenario where you were held accountable for your performance via Recount then you'd realize what a blessing it can be, and that 99.999% of people you're gonna play with are not the kind of d-bags who are going to kick you because they want to see that % just a few points higher by your name.

 

It's great for telling when someone's doing something like, say, afk-ing during fights, on account of the fact that people can easily lie to defend themselves from that kind of accusation. If you see someone standing around in a flashpoint, then ask them if they're afk-ing, all they have to do is say "no" and then you look like an a-hole for booting that person (if you do). With recount, just pull up the numbers and say, "what happened in that fight?" If they don't have a legit response then you know they're just lying to/sponging off you.

 

This is especially important in determining whether or not you want to take someone on your guild runs, since no one wants to get gear for people who are not contributing. And before you start saying, "Oh but now people are going to say you need x dps to even play with me", just know that those people are out there and they'll be like that no matter what systems of data representation your game uses. In fact from the sound of things on these boards, they're mostly leaving this game anyway, so I doubt you'll have much to worry about there.

 

Yes, they will be there. But I don't have to play with or even near them.

[souloferdrick]

Please, tell me when stacking the deck in your favor to guarantee a win is not cheating. I'm 48 years old, I've travelled most of the world, I've fought overseas and I've read lots. I'm pretty worldly if I say so myself, but I have never heard of this.

 

Because, by your own logic, using a tank spec or class to hold aggro and play meat shield would be cheating.

[ferroz]

I'm saying you are stacking the dice in your favor to ensure you win.

No, the dice remain unstacked. You're just taking a statistics class so that you actually know the odds... Which isn't cheating.

 

Right now you're just spewing circular logic: if you're cheating then your cheating.

 

The problem is, your "stacking the deck" analogy is incorrect, so your argument whole thing falls apart at that point

 

 

Did Bioware give you this ability at launch? No they didn't.

irrelevant. Edited January 13, 2012 by ferroz

[ManuNegra]

Please, tell me when stacking the deck in your favor to guarantee a win is not cheating. I'm 48 years old, I've travelled most of the world, I've fought overseas and I've read lots. I'm pretty worldly if I say so myself, but I have never heard of this.

 

Stacking the deck was a bad analogy perhaps, it's more like recount gives you a reliable way to measure people's performance. So not stacking the deck, more like keeping track of the way people play their hands, so you can know if you're sitting down with poker players or for a game of go fish. Surely you can understand how invaluable that kind of information is when you're trying to get something done?

[ferroz]

Of course you would, you might even win sometime.

he'd certainly run into less fallacious logic.

[Bibdabob]

Not having recount (and combat logs in general) is like trying to diagnose a problem without tools. Recount is a tool, and in the hands of sensible players is very useful.

 

Yes it also works the wrong way. For example the top DPS can become arrogant and shout at the others "pick up your game". But there will always be players like that. Any tool can be misused in the end.

 

The benefits far outweigh the problems.

[rijde]

Ah, yes, world of meters, i quit that game and the constant changes to classes because of bar graphs was one of the main reasons. Discipline to Holy back to Discipline to Holy to Discipline. Most of the changes weren't even statistically significant. They were merely to knock down the bar graph on some website for world of meters.

[ManuNegra]

Not having recount (and combat logs in general) is like trying to diagnose a problem without tools. Recount is a tool, and in the hands of sensible players is very useful.

 

Yes it also works the wrong way. For example the top DPS can become arrogant and shout at the others "pick up your game". But there will always be players like that. Any tool can be misused in the end.

 

The benefits far outweigh the problems.

 

Exactly! Wish I coulda been this concise in my own post!

[souloferdrick]

I'd answer this but Mr. Moderator would give me another warning for insulting someone.

 

If you have to resort to that or refrain from resorting to that then you're not making a very compelling argument are you?

 

As I noted earlier, I am personally against mods myself for just about the same reasons you are but you are making a pretty poor case for something that is ultimately not going to make or break the game.

[Happylol]

Stacking the deck was a bad analogy perhaps, it's more like recount gives you a reliable way to measure people's performance. So not stacking the deck, more like keeping track of the way people play their hands, so you can know if you're sitting down with poker players or for a game of go fish. Surely you can understand how invaluable that kind of information is when you're trying to get something done?

 

Yes it is very valuable. That is why every major sports team, poker player, and almost anybody that competes in everything uses it.

[ManuNegra]

Ah, yes, world of meters, i quit that game and the constant changes to classes because of bar graphs was one of the main reasons. Discipline to Holy back to Discipline to Holy to Discipline. Most of the changes weren't even statistically significant. They were merely to knock down the bar graph on some website for world of meters.

 

Well now, that seems more like a problem with the design philosophy of the company...it remains to be seen whether Bioware will be as...."conscientious" about appeasing the vocal minority of forum whiners as "that other company" was/is.

[ferroz]

Please, tell me when stacking the deck in your favor to guarantee a win is not cheating.

When the phrase is being used in a purely idiomatic/figurative way way rather than a literal way.

 

if someone is literally stacking the deck, that's cheating.

if someone is figuratively stacking the deck, that's not cheating

 

 

You're using the phrase in an idiomatic way, and then assuming that it was used in a literal way, to make a circular argument. This is no different, logically, than just asserting that the behavior is cheating with no supporting evidence.

 

I'm 48 years old, I've travelled most of the world, I've fought overseas and I've read lots.

I'm very skeptical of this claim.I would have guessed no more than 1/3 of that, probably closer to 1/4 of that, just based on how you post.