Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[guided_by_voices]

No meters = no parking tickets either. Yay!

 

I like your sig

[sataren]

Good players will have no problem with this.

 

Bads will fight for their right to be invited.

[GalacticKegger]

Good players will be good regardless.

[Thuggie]

DPS Meters or not.

 

Enough has been said. I have read these 33 pages, and the countless other pages that have to do with this topic. With that being said it makes me say wow. The people who don't want them have no concept of anything other than what they want and the people who do want them have no concept of what other people want. You are both selfish. This solves nothing, all you guys are doing is debating why they should be there, should not be there. This is not a solution just a debate no different than which came first, "the chicken or the egg."

 

If I were a Bioware employee, this is how I would resolve the issue. I would create a dps meter ( not a combat log (much like the one in Warzones )). I would give you 3 options with this dps meter.

 

1. Check this box if you are wanting to view your and only your damage done per an encounter. Meaning, you and only you would be able to see your own dps. This will appease the people who want to be able to min. / max. but do not want other people to look at a combat log and see what his top damage done was, or to get a basic idea of what his rotation was.

 

2. Check this box if you do not want yourself or others to see your damage done per an encounter. This options works like the anon command used to work in EQ1. In short it stops you from seeing your dps, but more importantly it stops other from seeing your dps and commenting on it. This will appease the people who do not want combat meters.

 

3. Check this box if you would like to view your damage done and share this information with other members or your ( make more options ) raid, guild, group. This will appease the hardcore type who like to have top dpsers, healers, etc in the guild. This tool will also appeal to guild leaders / raid leader who are expecting the best of its players.

 

Most hardcore guilds will enforce you to check 3, but, if you are in one of these hardcore guilds you should more than likely expect it none the less.

 

If you are a casual player or in a "fun" guild you could check 1 or 2 and live the rest of your life in this mmo without any further complications.

 

As for me I would make people click 3, doesn't matter to me. If you are bad I will remove you from my group. Call me what you will. But, ultimately its my choice. When I join a group or a raid, people know that I will be giving 100%, because I will research my class, I will theory craft. It is completely unfair for me to have to carry you, or watch you give less than what I am giving. Luckily for you if you are a bady most the time I do not group with people outside my guild.

 

People say they play this game to have fun, well who is the judge on what fun is?

 

To me fun is taking 4 hours to clear an instance, then coming back the next week and doing in it 3 hours, the next week doing it in 2 hours. To accomplish this each piece of gear has to make a difference, each mistake made or not made has to make a difference. In order to accomplish this " fun " meters are needed to see what can be damage could of been avoided, what dps could have been increased etc etc.

 

To some people fun is logging on and jumping in a group or pvping, purposely losing, or trying a hybrid spec that is terrible. If you call that fun then by all means I implore you to continue doing so. I can promise you this it won't be with me.

 

To both parties. Fun is an opinion. Therefore, this arguement / debate, will never end and you people should problly try coming up with solutions as I have to fix the situation.

 

Thanks,

 

Thug

[RealAeiouy]

No tooltips or flytext would also make the game more difficult.

 

No graphics would as well.

 

Turning off the monitor even more so.

 

Yeah it is not the same thing at all. We are talking about the core of the game.

 

How about we put the top level raid gear on npcs for 500 credits a slot, that would make the game easier so why not do that?

[PjPablo]

Yeah it is not the same thing at all. We are talking about the core of the game.

 

How about we put the top level raid gear on npcs for 500 credits a slot, that would make the game easier so why not do that?

 

Now you know your example and whether something like Recount becomes available are nowhere in the same universe. Just stop.

[RealAeiouy]

You know what? You *********** win. I don't care anymore.

 

I've deleted my Level 50 and my alts. I've uninstalled and cancelled my sub.

 

That statement right there proves that Bioware doesn't want me as a customer.

 

Bioware and me both. Why you still posting on a forum for a game you quit and deleted. I will let you know that is not normal behavior.

 

Go focus on something you enjoy.

[RealAeiouy]

Now you know your example and whether something like Recount becomes available are nowhere in the same universe. Just stop.

 

What do you mean? They both make core game functionality easier.

[brokeit]

Meters help you steamroll content. Rarely do you need absolute max DPS to complete content. If you want ezboringmode then here: U-U-D-D-L-R-L-R-B-A. If you want to enjoy yourself and have people that play how they want instead of what squeezes every drop of damage from their player, then bring players based on their actual skill not a number in a box.

[GalacticKegger]

What do you mean? They both make core game functionality easier.

Core means can't do without. If they wanted an easier core they'd be built in already. Edited January 11, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[NuanceNW]

Think about it from a game design perspective, you've created a immersive game that people play, worked on the storylines, the animations, the backgrounds, the flashpoints and operations but not a tool that tells people how much damage they are doing... why is that? Because it's not part of the storyline, not part of the animation, not part of the backgrounds, nor the flashpoints but it does come in pvp... because that is the only place it belongs - where you are actually competing against others.

 

They have the logs in the only part of the game where it matters, in PvP.

 

The rest of the game doesn't need meters. People that complain simply need to join a guild or make friends and work with others to improve their play or help others and that perhaps that is the bigger challenge for them, that they be social.

 

Please Bioware take a stand and keep this game social and out of the hands of those that want this game to be the one they left - there's a reason they left those games...

Edited January 11, 2012 by NuanceNW

[Ambrossius]

DPS Meters or not.

 

...

 

1. Check this box if you are wanting to view your and only your damage done per an encounter. Meaning, you and only you would be able to see your own dps. This will appease the people who want to be able to min. / max. but do not want other people to look at a combat log and see what his top damage done was, or to get a basic idea of what his rotation was.

 

2. Check this box if you do not want yourself or others to see your damage done per an encounter. This options works like the anon command used to work in EQ1. In short it stops you from seeing your dps, but more importantly it stops other from seeing your dps and commenting on it. This will appease the people who do not want combat meters.

 

3. Check this box if you would like to view your damage done and share this information with other members or your ( make more options ) raid, guild, group. This will appease the hardcore type who like to have top dpsers, healers, etc in the guild. This tool will also appeal to guild leaders / raid leader who are expecting the best of its players.

 

...

 

Thanks,

 

Thug

 

I completely 100% agree with you.

 

In my raids, 3. Period. In pug 4 mans I frankly don't care what your numbers look like because I can just carry you and never see you again and we can both play the game our own "fun" way. I'll have my min/maxing and you'll have your mindless faceroll.

 

You win this thread.

[gtmach]

Well it's hard to say.

 

To be able to do your best you do need to understand your attack rotation/healing rotation. The only way effectively understand that is by having recount or at least a combat log.

 

At level 50 for end game content I need my Elitist Jerks to get in on this game and show me the most effective way to dps so that I can better serve my group.

 

But on the other hand, it is a buzzkill when the meters take over and you're always denied group access because you miss the bar by a tiny amount.

[GalacticKegger]

You win this thread.

LOL. No one wins or losses . . . it's just a forum discussion. Edited January 11, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Grim_X]

The rest of the game doesn't need meters. People that complain simply need to join a guild or make friends and work with others to improve their play or help others and that perhaps that is the bigger challenge for them, that they be social.

How do you improve your play without knowing what to improve? Anecdotal evidence is not a valid way to improve, everyone's experience is different. As a tank let's say I have issues holding threat, is it a matter of the abilities I'm using, the timing of my abilties (rotation), or is it an effect of game balance that only the devs can fix (it happens)? Asking around and getting answers without an real numbers won't get a straight answer.

 

Please Bioware take a stand and keep this game social and out of the hands of those that want this game to be the one they left - there's a reason they left those games...

I left that game because of the direction the company controlling it went, neutered content, lack of innovation, inability to balance the game, lack of timely content, and ultimately it simply wasn't enjoyable anymore. You do not speak for everyone. Also, it's naive and ignorant to believe that players with bad attitudes or are "anti-social" won't exist or won't find a way to be vocal regardless.

[Hoseman]

I dont see how its a problem finding out how a boss one shot you and your entire raid...

 

I dont see a problem understanding how much damage your raid is putting out, and who is being lazy and not performing like everyone else.

 

I dont see a problem with finding out the proper rotation to maximize your damage/healing/defensive cd's.

 

 

Can someone explain to me why people are against math?

 

If youre afraid of being removed for Being lazy or not healing and you got caught. or Admiring the scenery while the mobs your supposed to tank kill everyone.. then DONT RAID.

 

Life is about options and competition. If you dont understand that you need to stop playing video games and go outside imo.

[Grim_X]

But on the other hand, it is a buzzkill when the meters take over and you're always denied group access because you miss the bar by a tiny amount.

Then don't group with those people. Problem sovled. Any raid leader who tunnel visions into believing that small fraction of damage will make or break an encounter (save for the exception: wiping at 1-2% and you're executing all other mechanics flawlessly - which is highly unlikely) is not a good raid leader. Improvements can be made in many other ways and it's always a case by case basis and analysis.

[Hoseman]

 

I left that game because of the direction the company controlling it went, neutered content, lack of innovation, inability to balance the game, lack of timely content, and ultimately it simply wasn't enjoyable anymore. You do not speak for everyone. Also, it's naive and ignorant to believe that players with bad attitudes or are "anti-social" won't exist or won't find a way to be vocal regardless.

 

I agree with you 100%. Where did this assumption that DPS meters are an antisocial tool used to ostracize people? In essence its a tool that works for a social benefit and a group goal (if used apropriately) But like a hammer, you can use it to build a house, or you can use it to break windows and cause damage, but you still have the option to use the hammer or not.

[Deyjarl]

Nope, don't support it.

 

 

Been in a hardcore raiding guild in other games and have never needed it, and should never be necessary to raid.

[Deyjarl]

I dont see how its a problem finding out how a boss one shot you and your entire raid...

 

I dont see a problem understanding how much damage your raid is putting out, and who is being lazy and not performing like everyone else.

 

I dont see a problem with finding out the proper rotation to maximize your damage/healing/defensive cd's.

 

 

Can someone explain to me why people are against math?

 

If youre afraid of being removed for Being lazy or not healing and you got caught. or Admiring the scenery while the mobs your supposed to tank kill everyone.. then DONT RAID.

 

Life is about options and competition. If you dont understand that you need to stop playing video games and go outside imo.

 

Far too often it turns into where any slight deviation from what is expected for maximum output gets rage-face at whoever is slacking, even when its not even necessary.

 

No I've not experienced it directed at me, but seen it in PUGS quite often in game that have it. PUGS. It's ridiculous.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Deyjarl

[Nikolu]

I dont see how its a problem finding out how a boss one shot you and your entire raid...

 

I dont see a problem understanding how much damage your raid is putting out, and who is being lazy and not performing like everyone else.

 

I dont see a problem with finding out the proper rotation to maximize your damage/healing/defensive cd's.

 

 

Can someone explain to me why people are against math?

 

If youre afraid of being removed for Being lazy or not healing and you got caught. or Admiring the scenery while the mobs your supposed to tank kill everyone.. then DONT RAID.

 

Life is about options and competition. If you dont understand that you need to stop playing video games and go outside imo.

 

See you don't understand man. The pros, they know they are so good at this game they transcend your need to display a number affirming their performance in a raid. They don't need meters to know their DPS, your DPS, your threat, your shoe size. They are pros.

 

The bads man; again you just don't understand. You don't get to judge them ok, you aren't god, and this isn't the pearly gates. You should be happy there is a warm body behind the keyboard (maybe) and just deal with whatever they decide to do because they pay just as much as you.

 

The rest of us, well ya we'd like a combat log. A way to verify simply and easily that we are improving, or doing our best to make the most of the tools our classes were given.

 

But the pros and bads man you just don't understand.

[Grim_X]

Meters help you steamroll content. Rarely do you need absolute max DPS to complete content. If you want ezboringmode then here: U-U-D-D-L-R-L-R-B-A. If you want to enjoy yourself and have people that play how they want instead of what squeezes every drop of damage from their player, then bring players based on their actual skill not a number in a box.

 

I've bolded the important part: Who are you to tell others what they do and can't enjoy? Some people want to excel and they can't do that unless they know what works the best mathematically, anecdotally is a poor basis for analysis. If you disagree than that's your choice and can do as you please away from others who disagree with you. There's no reason to take away choice from others because you feel differently. Choice means you can CHOOSE to ignore it and those that want to take advantage of it can, you are not forced to do so. You can avoid those that require it, that is your perogative.

[Grim_X]

Been in a hardcore raiding guild in other games and have never needed it, and should never be necessary to raid.

 

It never was necessary across the board, ever. Some groups required a minimum dps, sure and that is their perogative, their choice, their group. They could set whatever standards they want, it's their group! If they wanted only blonde men between the ages of 20 to 25 that speak english, russian, and italian and weigh less than 40 pounts with credit cards that end in the number 4 then they can damn well do that, it's THEIR group. Getting in a huff over it is assinine, (and this not specifcally directed at the quoted) FORM YOUR OWN GROUP with your own requirements. That is the choice you have! THE POWER IS YOURS!

 

For instance: I never thought Gearscore was bad, I thought it was illconcieved. Reducing someone down to a number was silly at best and no real indication of a person's worth or skill but I understood why some people would use it. The same reason why I thought achievement checks were illconcieved, again no measure of skill (one could be dead the whole fight and still get it). People look for a way to set a bar for those to enter and whatever bar they set you are completely free to not join them and form your own group with your own restrictions (or none at all).

Edited January 11, 2012 by Grim_X

[Hairless]

Out of all the people saying "you don't need meters to raid", how many of you have actually even cleared up to nightmare mode with your guild?

Lets see some screenshots.

And why do you assume that every other guild can do it?

[Traesket]

+1 dchero and engrey (in another thread), Hairless, Grim_X , probably some more.

 

@Some of the people in here:

Your guilds must have been freaking weird as hell to be honest. How can you never have met an enrage-timer during SEVEN YEARS of raiding WoW? Don't take me wrong but I think you're either full of **** about raiding at all, full of **** about the enrage timer or raided easy-modes like 6 months after the raid came out in which case you're all so overly geared it's not possible to meet the enrage timer. I know all the best guilds in WoW have met the enrage timer on almost every single boss except perhaps the first in a raid dungeon or the ones without an enrage timer. Why would there even exist enrage timers if no one ever failed at downing bosses before them?

 

Even so, if you're so incredibly awesome that you haven't met a single enrage timer (which is impossible if you've been raiding at all) you shouldn't have any problem with having a DPS-meter since it simply does not effect you. For everyone else, living in reality, it is useful except for those who underperform and wants to get carried through content instead of actually learning how to dps. If I start a raid, I set up some ground rules. If you underperform, you're out. It's me who started the raid and it's my choice to do so. Guess what? That rule of thumb has worked better for me and the raid in pubs than any other type of raid I've been too. Sure, one poor sad little bastard who's lazy as hell won't get his epics so that he can be a sad little lazy bastard, but with epics that he won't be able to use.

 

I'm not saying meters is everything, but let's be honest for ****s sake. The people who suck at meters TEND to be the same people who utterly fails at everything else as well. And as the thread states, it also shows damage taken etcetera. If someone who isn't a tank is constantly taking a ton of damage each fight for no apparent reason, why would you want that person to keep on taking damage during fights? You don't, you want to know that sort of thing. If you don't like meters then start your own guild/raid and don't use meters. I doubt any of you have actually done so.

 

I've played in a world 100 guild for a few raids, I've played with a world 1000-2000 guild for several years, I played with guilds and pubs at almost every level beyond that and we met enrage timers almost every raid when we hadn't cleared the content before. Why else would enrage timers exist? Why would developers even have enrage timers if they were never used?