al_giordino Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I really love Star Wars and in the beginning, I thought everyone on the forums was WRONG and SWTOR was the best thing ever. I've been trying to love SWTOR but the problem is the story and linearity, plus BORING QUEST COMBAT. You simply must do story quests in order, and EVERY non-story quest is too easy at the level you can do it, and you can't simply take on higher level (non-story) quests for a challenge because they are "greyed out". Honestly, I want to die sometimes from a big challenge. Or I want to take on a challenge and succeed and get some item that's powerful for my level. I want to be able to CHOOSE what challenges I take on, not forced into quest lines that are easy and boring. In the end, I feel like I'm watching a movie where I'm forced to move the main character without freedom of choice...."I HAVE to run him here"....and I have to choose dialogue that makes NO difference to the plot... HENCE IT'S BORING. What I've found myself doing is following a story I have no impact on - in the order prescribed - and the experience is dull. Even the lightside/darkside choices are not a true CHOICE in that you're forced to follow one path or the other for corresponding items. No two ways about it, this is an MMO on rails - instead of the "rail driven shooter" it's a rail driven MMO. These rails even hamper grouping while leveling because other friends / players will either be behind you or ahead of you in the prescribed order you can do quests. It's been difficult to find someone on the exact quest I'm on, so that we can group together and complete the story line and side quests together - frankly it's happened about once in 25 levels. I must compare it to WoW in that, in WoW, you had different ways to level and different zones etc. You could choose where to go and when, with whom, and how to level... you could grind, or you could quest, or even just PVP, or do some combination thereof. You could choose the zones to go to... bored with helping the elves Ashenvale? Head to another zone of your choice. DO WHATEVER YOU FEEL LIKE. That's the difference. You can't do whatever you feel like in SWTOR, you're confined. In the endgame of WoW, you had a character who saved X Village, who rescued the damsel XXX and defeated the evil Zs. I never even killed the Lich King, nor was I forced to, in order to advance. The point is, not everyone had the same experience or story! You could skip whole areas to level in another of your preference. You created your own story and your own adventure. In SWTOR, everyone of your class has the SAME experience and story. And this is a huge negative. Sorry, but simply choosing abilities does not make a game an RPG. In an RPG, you need freedom of choice so your character has his own background and story that's not the same as everyone else. Last night I completed the Nar Shadaa quests for my Sith Inquisitor, and I was given the option to go to Tatooine or Alderaan for my next series of quests. The choice was false. I figured I'll go to the higher level planet of Alderaan because thus far I've been bored by going to the planet for my corresponding level, and thus I know I'd be bored by the quests on Tatooine. Well, here's the problem, instead of letting me make this choice, in Alderaan the quests were greyed out, so my only "choice" is to go to Tatooine - which I have no interest in doing because the quests are sure to be BORING because the designers are dictating that I can only do such and such at this level - it's easy and boring mind you - so that's just a terrible decision in how the quests (and corresponding character adventure) are forced upon you. For the record, I will keep playing SWTOR but in smaller increments, and enjoying it for what it is, instead of what it should have been/ could be / what I wished it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bekkal Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) You're absolutely right. I love how all the Final Fantasy games had radically different options for me, complete with different characters surviving and different ending outcomes. Baldur's Gate was in no way similar to TOR, you are correct there as well. Elder Scrolls games? Those storylines are totally mutable! Oh wait, none of the above is true. Well, at least in tabletop RPGs players set the story! Oh, wait, the DM absolutely will use every tool at his disposal to TPK you if you try to break the story. (I mean he probably will anyway, but he definitely will if you try to break his story). Edited January 10, 2012 by Bekkal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMasterRP Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I went to find a powerful pirate cult leader on Hoth the other day. He offered me a challenge of some sort because he saw my power and that I wasn't just another Imperial army grunt. I chose to cut him down where he stood instead. I'd say that's a pretty distrinct choice, as in, not an illusion. And when it comes to class storylines, what do you expect? This is a theme park MMORPG just like all the major MMORPGs on the market today. Theme park MMORPGs tell stories, and to tell a story, you have to have some amount of linear content. The various non-class-storyline missions provide plenty of choices that actually matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennethHoover Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Now I can sleep well tonight because I was really worried about how you were receiving the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 sounds like we are playing a different game. Going to get 10 boar tusks for soup is no choice. Being able to kill a person or decide to take their money let them live and kill the origianl quest giver is more choice than any MMO i've played in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Without something in the role of a proper dungeon master to allow true choices, choice is an illusion in just about any video game rpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterShake Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Being able to kill a person or decide to take their money let them live and kill the origianl quest giver is more choice than any MMO i've played in the past. Unless of course you're light side. The OP is right. Much of the choice in this game is an illusion. You make one choice at the beginning of the game, and then much of your path is set out before you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesira Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Unless of course you're light side. The OP is right. Much of the choice in this game is an illusion. You make one choice at the beginning of the game, and then much of your path is set out before you. You can still make choices if you're light side, just as if you're dark side. You don't HAVE to make the same alignment choice *every* time. In fact I don't think you're really intended to if you don't want to because you can make up for it with diplomacy and flashpoints and all of that lovely stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdela Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 How did WoW give you any choice? You chased quests that started from one zone and followed that line to the next little town, etc to max level. Oh, you could start in a few different locations, but you eventually wound up in STV regardless of where you started. Sometimes I wonder if I play the same games as some people. You want free-form? Get a time machine and travel back to the early days of UO or EQ. Or I guess you can try EVE (I haven't played it, but I hear it is very open). Short of that most MMOs are on some kind of rails, directing you where to go and matching mob level to player level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterShake Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) You can still make choices if you're light side, just as if you're dark side. You don't HAVE to make the same alignment choice *every* time. In fact I don't think you're really intended to if you don't want to because you can make up for it with diplomacy and flashpoints and all of that lovely stuff. My first ~15 levels or so I made choices made as if I were roleplaying (something I hardly EVER do in games). I wanted to feel connected to my character. I killed a few NPCs who were real a-holes, and I saved some other people who didn't deserve a grisly fate. Then went to the light/dark side vendors and saw all of the relics were based on your light/dark points. I had accrued 1200 light side and 1050 dark side. I could use exactly zero relics in the game. Worst game design. Ever. Edited January 10, 2012 by JediMasterShake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldfury Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) What I've found myself doing is following a story I have no impact on Welcome to rpg gaming. Edited January 10, 2012 by Boldfury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchorn Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What you are saying about questing in WoW was definitely true during vanilla Wow but have you tried questing at all during Cataclysm? The quests were very linear. You could only pickup 1-2 quests at a time in each area and once you completed those quests you were given a few more in a slightly different area. I swear I never had more than 4 quests in my log at any one time because every quest was just part of a really long quest chain. So questing in Cata was definitely an MMO on rails experience for me so I'm not sure why you are picking on SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_giordino Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Don't forget half the problem - the BORING questing. You can literally not die in this game unless you make a stupid mistake or purposefully aggro some extra enemies. That just makes it dull because the "quests" are /yawn since you can complete them half without thinking. In SWTOR, you must do class quests in order and the side quests are given in order along with the story line quests. You can ONLY do the side quests that are currently open to your level and position in your classes story line that you're currently at, or those that were opened in the past during your story line. You cannot jump ahead or to the side. For example, if you finish Nar Shadaa at level 27, you still have to go to Tatooine (lvl 24-28) you cannot skip Tatooine and go to Alderaan (lvl 28-32). Let's say you go to Tatooine and only work on side quests and get to level 32 doing side quests and killing mobs - you still need to go back and do some easy lame story quests designed for level 24s in order to proceed. This story will give you little/no exp but you're forced to do it in order to open up the next phase of the story, the next planets, the next side quests. Someone tell me - am I wrong? Can you grind to 50, or do side quests all the way to 50? Can you pvp to 20 and still get a star ship without going back and doing level 1-20 story quests that won't give you any decent exp? No. In a real MMO/RPG you'd forge your destiny by moving ahead, not by moving back along the rails to where the developer wants you to be. Eve Online is great in this regard and I guess I expected SWTOR to be more player driven. The whole "story" and thus "rails" concept is not beneficial to the genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Unless of course you're light side. The OP is right. Much of the choice in this game is an illusion. You make one choice at the beginning of the game, and then much of your path is set out before you. Really have you not played the trooper storyline? I seem to also remember having some interesting choices on my sage. Of course if you just auto choose light everytime, then the problem is you not the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinwood Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Unless of course you're light side. The OP is right. Much of the choice in this game is an illusion. You make one choice at the beginning of the game, and then much of your path is set out before you. Those choices can be reversed. Diplomacy, companion gifts make those choices irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myslead Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 My first ~15 levels or so I made choices made as if I were roleplaying (something I hardly EVER do in games). I wanted to feel connected to my character. I killed a few NPCs who were real a-holes, and I saved some other people who didn't deserve a grisly fate. Then went to the light/dark side vendors and saw all of the relics were based on your light/dark points. I had accrued 1200 light side and 1050 dark side. I could use exactly zero relics in the game. Worst game design. Ever. they're going to put neutral relics and gears pretty soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_giordino Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 You're absolutely right. I love how all the Final Fantasy games had radically different options for me, complete with different characters surviving and different ending outcomes. Baldur's Gate was in no way similar to TOR, you are correct there as well. Elder Scrolls games? Those storylines are totally mutable! Oh wait, none of the above is true. Well, at least in tabletop RPGs players set the story! Oh, wait, the DM absolutely will use every tool at his disposal to TPK you if you try to break the story. (I mean he probably will anyway, but he definitely will if you try to break his story). In Fallout 3 I killed that DJ in the Washington ruins, which then proceeded to mess up the entire story line because he was a necessary character. Now that's freedom of choice. He shouldn't have been rude to me and maybe he'd still be alive. But that ability to forge your own destiny is what attached me to that game and gives it a great memory in my mind. The story was my own, the decision to kill him was my own. Elder scrolls are much the same - I don't know what you're talking about. You can kill whoever you want in Elder Scrolls, steal from whoever you want... Kill someone and take over their house, or be a bandit hiding out in the woods, or a noble wizard whose friends with the king, CHOICE is the beauty of Elder Scrolls, and on top of that the quests/enemies actually provide a challenge as you proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaverickXIV Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Worst game design. Ever.I actually agree that there should be items for neutral players, but you're being such a baby about it that you've almost chamged my position out of spite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeblesTV Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I am immersed and enjoying myself. I don't need far reaching consequences to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barathos Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's not that you don't get to make choices, there are plenty of those. You just don't SEE it. In Mass Effect, you could have some pretty devastating results if you did the wrong options. But I don't see any of that in TOR. I don't expect anything on a massive scale, but at least let me see the effects of saving somebody on my class quest instead of "Here's 119 credits in the mail for saving/killing me! Enjoy!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarimRune Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You could skip whole areas to level in another of your preference. You created your own story and your own adventure. lmao That's freedom. And the stories you created by...going to another area and doing the exact same thing you did in the previous area. I think what you want is the ability to explore more. But don't try to say that WoW has more 'story'. It has more blocks of pointless, boring text that inform you to kill X creatures or farm X plants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatboylgn Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What if you pug'd a few quests with game impacting decisions, lost the social roll to save or kill some NPC, and then the whole group got stuck with that decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's not that you don't get to make choices, there are plenty of those. You just don't SEE it. In Mass Effect, you could have some pretty devastating results if you did the wrong options. But I don't see any of that in TOR. I don't expect anything on a massive scale, but at least let me see the effects of saving somebody on my class quest instead of "Here's 119 credits in the mail for saving/killing me! Enjoy!" Like them sending an email with what happened to them after? This usually involves closure and is related to what you chose in the quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchorn Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Don't forget half the problem - the BORING questing. You can literally not die in this game unless you make a stupid mistake or purposefully aggro some extra enemies. That just makes it dull because the "quests" are /yawn since you can complete them half without thinking. In SWTOR, you must do class quests in order and the side quests are given in order along with the story line quests. You can ONLY do the side quests that are currently open to your level and position in your classes story line that you're currently at, or those that were opened in the past during your story line. You cannot jump ahead or to the side. For example, if you finish Nar Shadaa at level 27, you still have to go to Tatooine (lvl 24-28) you cannot skip Tatooine and go to Alderaan (lvl 28-32). Let's say you go to Tatooine and only work on side quests and get to level 32 doing side quests and killing mobs - you still need to go back and do some easy lame story quests designed for level 24s in order to proceed. This story will give you little/no exp but you're forced to do it in order to open up the next phase of the story, the next planets, the next side quests. Someone tell me - am I wrong? Can you grind to 50, or do side quests all the way to 50? Can you pvp to 20 and still get a star ship without going back and doing level 1-20 story quests that won't give you any decent exp? No. In a real MMO/RPG you'd forge your destiny by moving ahead, not by moving back along the rails to where the developer wants you to be. Eve Online is great in this regard and I guess I expected SWTOR to be more player driven. The whole "story" and thus "rails" concept is not beneficial to the genre. If you think your class quest is some "lame story quest that you have to do", then you probably should quit SWTOR. The class quests line are the main feature of leveling in SWTOR and Bioware has stated that it is really difficult (if not impossible) to level to 50 while skipping the class quests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drallbait Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Nonsense. There are choices in every quest that are meaningful. A lot better choices than "Accept Quest" or "Cancel". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts