Question for folks against add-ons

[EscVelocity]

We have all read the reasons for people being against add-ons, even if add-ons are simple "informative" add-ons. We don't need another thread hearing addon-vs-no addon debates.

 

What I wanted to ask in this thread to people who opposed add-ons, is, if your argument is that add-ons make the game "easier", then do you not use any website that provides you any content at all related to SWTOR that help you in any way? Think about any website you use besides official SWTOR. If you have used any website at all other than the official guides from Bioware, does that mean your argument against add-ons hypocritical?

 

Do you read the awesome threads on this forum that contain "guides" or "tips"? Are you mad or happy that Bioware officially supports them by stickying them? Do you read these? Do you know you are using shortcuts and making the game "easier" by taking what other players have discovered on their own regarding classes, companions, crew skills, missions, leveling, pvp, trade market tips, etc, and putting them to use for your gain? Does that not make the game easier for you? Should you have not learned that stuff on your own using your own experience and codex entries for everything in game since you thought about getting the game?

 

Also regarding the terminology, add-ons aren't really "programs". Websites and threads are not "programs". Neither are add-ons. Add-ons are files that usually sit in the game directory, just as websites are files that sit on a server.

Programs that make the game easier are not allowed in any major MMO to my knowledge. Program you are thinking of are bots, binary applications, threads, running processes.

They automate and manipulate the mechanics of the game. I'm against those, definitely.

 

If your argument against add-ons such as meters is not that it makes the game easier, but rather is the "anti-elitist" argument, than are you also against Bioware allowing the inspecting of other players' gear and stats? After all what's the point in being able to inspect other players?

Edited January 10, 2012 by EscVelocity

[Eliezer]

You could inspect them to see what gear gives you the fashion sense.

[Zachajariah]

I'm not enjoying this game NEARLY as much as I could without having a damage meter. I like to perfect my rotation and not knowing what my best rotation is, I feel like I am just hitting random stuff. This is just not as enjoyable to me. If we don't get add-ons I feel like I will quit.

[Matic]

hey guys lets compare apples to oranges!

 

you really can't see the difference between some addons like DBM and reading a guide written on the forum?

[AlpsStranger]

I'm very pro-addon, but this is such a troll thread lol. Nice dubious disclaimer brah.

[Matic]

I'm not enjoying this game NEARLY as much as I could without having a damage meter. I like to perfect my rotation and not knowing what my best rotation is, I feel like I am just hitting random stuff. This is just not as enjoyable to me. If we don't get add-ons I feel like I will quit.

 

does **** die?

 

if yes your rotation is fine

if no you need to find a better rotation.

[VicScotia]

Riiiiiiiiiiight...

 

The OP is comparing a macro/program that directly affects things happening INSIDE THE GAME wether it be in PVP or PVE on a second to second basis...against me reading what goes well with a crafting skill on this forum...

 

 

So...i go to this forum and read hints on crafting. You load up a single press "chain event" macro that gives you a massive advantage over other PVP players who dont have it.

 

Riiiiiiiiiiight...thats the same.

[Revelationjp]

I've decided that those for them are not going to accept any argument against them. Those against them are not going to accept any argument for them. I don't really care one way or the other, but simply adding the experience of friends to the discussion has created much wailing and gnashing of teeth, so I've determined these threads to be useless. . No offense intended.

[valgar]

Its ground hog day!!!

[EscVelocity]

Riiiiiiiiiiight...

 

The OP is comparing a macro/program that directly affects things happening INSIDE THE GAME wether it be in PVP or PVE on a second to second basis...against me reading what goes well with a crafting skill on this forum...

 

 

So...i go to this forum and read hints on crafting. You load up a single press "chain event" macro that gives you a massive advantage over other PVP players who dont have it.

 

Riiiiiiiiiiight...thats the same.

 

I never compared macros/programs to websites.

If you actually read what I typed, I compared add-ons to websites.

Add-ons are not macros. Macros carry out a sequence of commands, keyboard/mouse actions based on a recorded or pre-recorded sequence.

Add-ons provide insight to the game where data is openly present, just as a human can provide insight and game details on a website or forum where game data is openly present.

 

Your argument is that accessing that information in-game is cheating because it makes the game easier. But if you gather this information on a website, it's perfectly fine.

 

Is it safe to assume that you would be against an add-on that displays a boss's abilities, but you would be perfectly fine with alt-tabbing out of the game to read the boss's abilities on a website?

Edited January 10, 2012 by EscVelocity

[Khoraji]

Guides and add-ons are not the same thing.

 

Look at it this way, if this were anything but an MMO, having a "program" that changes the way the game was designed and makes things "easier" would be considered a hack and you would be banned. Just because most MMO'ers are used to easy-mode doesn't mean you should be allowed to hack the game.

 

I am not exactly anti add-on, especially damage/healing charts and other informative things. But these people saying that no add-ons is a deal breaker need to lrn2game.

[Kleinone]

Pretty good troll. 8.5/10

[Kholvan]

I'm not enjoying this game NEARLY as much as I could without having a damage meter. I like to perfect my rotation and not knowing what my best rotation is, I feel like I am just hitting random stuff. This is just not as enjoyable to me. If we don't get add-ons I feel like I will quit.

 

For many people, that's the problem with add-ons. If enough people perfect their rotation easily, game difficulty has to be scaled up for those people. In turn, this forces people who don't want to use add-ons to do so - simply in order to keep up with your efficient rotations that the difficulty has now been scaled to.

 

I don't mind as much because I can't stand playing DPS roles, but it's not hard to see where they are coming from.

[ferroz]

hey guys lets compare apples to oranges!

 

you really can't see the difference between some addons like DBM and reading a guide written on the forum?

Well the first only gives you information that is already available in the game, the latter gives you additional information.

 

so the latter is cheating, the former is not.

[Slightlycampana]

We have all read the reasons for people being against add-ons, even if add-ons are simple "informative" add-ons. We don't need another thread hearing addon-vs-no addon debates.

 

Thanks for starting another one then

 

The reason I am against add-ons is the grids or squares healing addon thingy. It changes the game from a dynamic one where the player is watching the game play, moving around, watching who is attacking who, trying to anticipate who to heal next, and changes that game play to watching a grid and pushing up bars.

 

A friend of mine used to watch p**n while healing raids in WoW (sorry the forum filters the word out).

 

Instead we should be pressuring BW to improve the current UI, which I understand is what they are actually working on.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Slightlycampana

[EscVelocity]

Pretty good troll. 8.5/10

 

Thanks man.

 

It's not like my goal wasn't to point out the fundamental flaw of the "add-ons make the game easier" argument by people who are fine with using third-party websites to make their game easier.

 

I mean why would I use an add-on for pointing me to datacrons on the map? That'd be cheating. It wouldn't be cheating though if I watched a Youtube video on how to do it, or read a step-by-step guide online with screenshots.

It would be cheating if I were to figure out a rotation based on my practice and understanding of data an add-on provides me. That make the game easier. But it wouldn't make the game easier if I read what rotation, build and spec I should use from a sticky thread on my class's forum. Nahhh....

Edited January 10, 2012 by EscVelocity

[Eliezer]

All of this kind of crap is simply a matter of personal preference. The only argument that makes sense, which you can accept or reject based on your own feelings, is that if you add in UI customization and Add-ons, people will feel obligated to use them, or socially pressured to use them, and some people don't want that hassle.

 

It takes the social problem of people telling other how to play the game up a notch.

 

Anti-addon people just want to avoid the headache and hassle by having them not be an option.

[Zachajariah]

For many people, that's the problem with add-ons. If enough people perfect their rotation easily, game difficulty has to be scaled up for those people. In turn, this forces people who don't want to use add-ons to do so - simply in order to keep up with your efficient rotations that the difficulty has now been scaled to.

 

I don't mind as much because I can't stand playing DPS roles, but it's not hard to see where they are coming from.

 

I understand what you are saying. However, it really isn't that difficult to take the time to get to know a better rotation to be on the level of guilds. My problem with people not for add-ons because they assume that every single guild out there is "Hardcore"... it seems as if nobody has ever heard of a casual guild, which are in fact more than 75% of the guild base in any given MMO.

 

I don't usually play a DPS class either, but I am really enjoying my shadow and my knight. The only add-ons I am asking for are UI customization ones, recount / dps meter, and something like grid/clique for when I heal. That's it. I 100% agree with keeping out stuff like DBM.

[Kasperion]

If you people REALLY want to argue about the philosophy of addons in general, you'll find that the things your argument would exclude simply by virtue of falling under the same umbrella would make for a very poor gaming experience. Ever look at the clock and say "My companion is done with his crafting in 20 minutes" or something similar?

 

That effectively IS using an addon.

 

On the opposite side, though, those of you who want unfettered access to addons would also run into a problem of people becoming too reliant on those addons. Heard it a thousand times before: "Sorry we wiped, guys, Healbot is acting up, and I don't know how to fix it."

 

There has to be a happy middle ground, because either extreme will cause problems.

 

P.S. For those that argue against third-party addons, I'll just say that if Bioware ends up allowing addons, I would much rather they allow third-party writers to do it (since Bioware can still break the addon if they want) and continue focusing their resources on the game itself.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Kasperion

[EscVelocity]

Thanks for starting another one then

 

The reason I am against add-ons is the grids or squares healing addon thingy. It changes the game from a dynamic one where the player is watching the game play, moving around, watching who is attacking who, trying to anticipate who to heal next, and changes that game play to watching a grid and pushing up bars.

 

A friend of mine used to watch p**n while healing raids in WoW (sorry the forum filters the word out).

 

Instead we should be pressuring BW to improve the current UI, which I understand is what they are actually working on.

 

You're welcome.

 

Oh, your reply has nothing to do with the questions I asked.

 

Your changing the topic to a specific add-on for a specific class and why it would "change the way you play" in certain circumstances.

 

Not talking about this type or that type of add-on, not talking about specific add-ons for classes. None of that. I'm addressing the general argument against add-ons.

 

So I'll try again:

 

1. People's argument against add-ons in general: it makes the game easier.

2. Said people use websites and guides that make the game easier.

3. Hypocrisy? Yes or no?

[Slightlycampana]

something like grid/clique for when I heal.

 

Why do you want grid? Doesn't that make healing really boring? The equivalent addon in WAR utterly ruined playing a healer for me.

[Elkard]

I do not use guides, addons, or repeatedly ask others in-game where do I go or what do I do--since the beginning of games, I have always played the game, explored, intuitively figured things out (no game is that hard to understand). If I lose a fight, I try a new strategy. This has worked well, especially when my level 31 beat down that level 33 boss. Commando assualt didn't work, so duh, I used my fast acting low level attacks and interrupts (didn't need any blasted meters to tell how or what to do). I go into a situation, examine my objectives, evaluate the forces or obsticles to overcome, and figure out a way to do it. I like surprises. I like to explore. I like to experience the game. Guides and addons just make it...boring. Like using cheats in a console game. If you are going to use them, why even play? Because every critter has different armor, attacks, etc., I go into every battle ready to improvise. Being flexible in the use of abilities, whatever the game, has kept my toons alive more often than anything else. Winning is not always about numbers; sometimes it's about how you use what talents you have. I feel if a player just wants to run from point A to B to C and do what a guide says, then how can they grow as a true player and really get to know how to use abilities to their fullest? The first datacrons I found in this game was by getting out and exploring. I saw a trail, said, "I am going to see what's down there." Hmmm, what's this datacron thing. Oh...hmmm. Maybe I can find more. That's why I turn in-game chat off--too many people constatly asking where do I go, what do I do, someone help me I can't beat this guy (thay my lower level guy just beat)...gets to be painful.

[Dwarfy]

You want to add a dmg/healing meter for personal improvement? im ok with that.

 

But if You want an add-on that spams on your screen, "XYZ Castying ABC in 5..4.." or perhaps makes decisions for you when healing/dispelling? i am not for that.

 

Perhaps something that organizes your inventory? ok

 

Anything that informs you of situational attacks/events which are occuring, or makes decisions on behalf of the player? No.

[MrTijger]

You're welcome.

 

Oh, your reply has nothing to do with the questions I asked.

 

Your changing the topic to a specific add-on for a specific class and why it would "change the way you play" in certain circumstances.

 

Not talking about this type or that type of add-on, not talking about specific add-ons for classes. None of that. I'm addressing the general argument against add-ons.

 

So I'll try again:

 

1. People's argument against add-ons in general: it makes the game easier.

2. Said people use websites and guides that make the game easier.

3. Hypocrisy? Yes or no?

 

No. Completely different issues.

[Salryc]

If your argument against add-ons such as meters is not that it makes the game easier, but rather is the "anti-elitist" argument, than are you also against Bioware allowing the inspecting of other players' gear and stats? After all what's the point in being able to inspect other players?

 

I don't think add-ons make the game easier, per se. Rather I think that they stupify the community, but that has nothing to do with my personal opposition to them.

 

You see, I feel that a game is a game, and meant to be enjoyed within the rules. Just as you don't use a baseball bat when playing pool, or ride horses to score touchdowns in football, there are basic rule sets for a game that constrain the players to a level of difficulty which is meant to enhance the experience.

 

Requiring a tool to tell you to not stand in the fire, is not "exactly" making the game easier to play.

 

But, to answer your question, yes, I also oppose inspecting other player's gear and stats. I was shocked to see that I can look at another player and even see what atribute points they have (aim, endurance, strength, willpower, etc). Am I butt hurt if it's left like this... no. Do I oppose it, yeah.... in the same way I oppose diet coke. (Seriously, you think drinking diet coke will make you lose weight, type of oppose).

 

I don't mind being able to see the name of the item they are wearing (so if I find that awesome yellow BH gear, I will know that it's the TTRB-19A elite what ever set and can start shopping) but I don't need to know the mods you have in it. Trust me, as a healer, or well... competent player at all, I can tell when you suck, with or without an add on.

 

But, reading all of the threads on damage meters, target of target, and such kinda makes me die a bit inside. Let me see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense to others.

 

Sure, it's probably easier to use damage meters, but in my little head, half the fun of the game is trying to better myself against myself. Not against a print out of what I coulda/shoulda/woulda been. I've seen healers crying that they can't do this or that because there's no target of target something or other (never played WOW, so don't know the proper names of all the goodies used there). I head into a flash point, and heal, with nothing more then a common ergonomic keyboard and a simple 5 button mouse. I bind my quick heal to button 5, click on the raid bars, and pay attention. End result, I have focused on my game, my team mates, and the encounter, and had a great time doing this.

 

Now, compare that with some raids in another game I've played (no, not wow, never played it I said) where the main healer had a macro and the tools to auto target the player with the lowest health pool. Healer then sets up, gets started, and totally becomes involved in some show on TV while we're all killing the boss. Is the healer doing well... uh, yeah, kinda. I mean, we're all alive and going, but the experience is some how lacking.

 

It is this lack of community, interaction, and base level of involvement in the game that I would hate to see go. Easy, hard - it doesn't matter to me. But I play games for a specific escape from reality that I can sink my mental teeth around. To have the meat (keeping with the metaphore) turned into jello takes some of the enjoyment out of it, even if it's not necessarily "easier" to digest. I don't need to know if that hunk of perfectly cooked and seasoned steak is 12% or 27% protein in order to enjoy it though.

 

Of course, I think that everyone is trying to make this a black and white issue, when in reality it's just a lot of shades of grey. Am I opposed to ALL add ons... no.