Question for folks against add-ons

[Zachajariah]

Why do you want grid? Doesn't that make healing really boring? The equivalent addon in WAR utterly ruined playing a healer for me.

 

Nope, I love healing this way! It's very effective and time efficient. Plus I love how you can modify grid with skins, etc. I make things harder by doing hard modes

[Game_Hermit]

I can literally play Warhammer Online with 3-5 buttons. That includes every skill my character has. There's a mod that swaps the skills on your bar based on conditions you define. Does the mob have my DOT on it? If not hotkey 3 should be my DOT. If it does hotkey 3 should be my direct damage spell. Is the target a party member and below 50% health? Use the big heal. Is the target a party member and above 50% health? Use the small heal. I can just spam 3 over and over and the game does my whole rotation for me. I can literally faceroll to victory. WoW has stuff almost as bad. Mods will be used to cheat. Edited January 10, 2012 by Game_Hermit

[Slightlycampana]

You're welcome.

 

Oh, your reply has nothing to do with the questions I asked.

 

Your changing the topic to a specific add-on for a specific class and why it would "change the way you play" in certain circumstances.

 

Not talking about this type or that type of add-on, not talking about specific add-ons for classes. None of that. I'm addressing the general argument against add-ons.

 

So I'll try again:

 

1. People's argument against add-ons in general: it makes the game easier.

2. Said people use websites and guides that make the game easier.

3. Hypocrisy? Yes or no?

 

Well, the answer to your question is this quote:

 

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."

Bernard Suits, 1978

 

The moment you allow addons, players will develop ones that play the game for you.

[Zachajariah]

I don't think add-ons make the game easier, per se. Rather I think that they stupify the community, but that has nothing to do with my personal opposition to them.

 

You see, I feel that a game is a game, and meant to be enjoyed within the rules. Just as you don't use a baseball bat when playing pool, or ride horses to score touchdowns in football, there are basic rule sets for a game that constrain the players to a level of difficulty which is meant to enhance the experience.

 

Requiring a tool to tell you to not stand in the fire, is not "exactly" making the game easier to play.

 

But, to answer your question, yes, I also oppose inspecting other player's gear and stats. I was shocked to see that I can look at another player and even see what atribute points they have (aim, endurance, strength, willpower, etc). Am I butt hurt if it's left like this... no. Do I oppose it, yeah.... in the same way I oppose diet coke. (Seriously, you think drinking diet coke will make you lose weight, type of oppose).

 

I don't mind being able to see the name of the item they are wearing (so if I find that awesome yellow BH gear, I will know that it's the TTRB-19A elite what ever set and can start shopping) but I don't need to know the mods you have in it. Trust me, as a healer, or well... competent player at all, I can tell when you suck, with or without an add on.

 

But, reading all of the threads on damage meters, target of target, and such kinda makes me die a bit inside. Let me see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense to others.

 

Sure, it's probably easier to use damage meters, but in my little head, half the fun of the game is trying to better myself against myself. Not against a print out of what I coulda/shoulda/woulda been. I've seen healers crying that they can't do this or that because there's no target of target something or other (never played WOW, so don't know the proper names of all the goodies used there). I head into a flash point, and heal, with nothing more then a common ergonomic keyboard and a simple 5 button mouse. I bind my quick heal to button 5, click on the raid bars, and pay attention. End result, I have focused on my game, my team mates, and the encounter, and had a great time doing this.

 

Now, compare that with some raids in another game I've played (no, not wow, never played it I said) where the main healer had a macro and the tools to auto target the player with the lowest health pool. Healer then sets up, gets started, and totally becomes involved in some show on TV while we're all killing the boss. Is the healer doing well... uh, yeah, kinda. I mean, we're all alive and going, but the experience is some how lacking.

 

It is this lack of community, interaction, and base level of involvement in the game that I would hate to see go. Easy, hard - it doesn't matter to me. But I play games for a specific escape from reality that I can sink my mental teeth around. To have the meat (keeping with the metaphore) turned into jello takes some of the enjoyment out of it, even if it's not necessarily "easier" to digest. I don't need to know if that hunk of perfectly cooked and seasoned steak is 12% or 27% protein in order to enjoy it though.

 

Of course, I think that everyone is trying to make this a black and white issue, when in reality it's just a lot of shades of grey. Am I opposed to ALL add ons... no.

 

You're contradicting yourself. How do you better yourself, against yourself.. if you don't have proof that you're doing better? i.e. no combat log, or damage meters. You can't, fact.

[Zachajariah]

Well, the answer to your question is this quote:

 

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."

Bernard Suits, 1978

 

The moment you allow addons, players will develop ones that play the game for you.

 

I'm pretty sure add-ons don't play the game for you... and I know this has been said a thousand times before but, if you don't like addons don't use them.

[SargentRock]

does **** die?

 

if yes your rotation is fine

if no you need to find a better rotation.

 

So...the pointy end goes in the bad guy?

[Game_Hermit]

I'm pretty sure add-ons don't play the game for you... and I know this has been said a thousand times before but, if you don't like addons don't use them.

 

Look at what I said a few posts up. They certainly do play the game for you.

[EscVelocity]

But, to answer your question, yes, I also oppose inspecting other player's gear and stats. I was shocked to see that I can look at another player and even see what atribute points they have (aim, endurance, strength, willpower, etc). Am I butt hurt if it's left like this... no. Do I oppose it, yeah.... in the same way I oppose diet coke. (Seriously, you think drinking diet coke will make you lose weight, type of oppose).

 

Thanks, it's good to know there's at least one anti-addon person who is consistent with their stated reasons. From what I've read in others, people are cherry picking at add-ons on the basis that it "makes the game easier", while they use ADDitional websites to "make the game easier" for themselves. I sense a bit of ignorance of some, because the way they describe add-ons is as if they think an add-on is the equivalent to a software bot that levels 1 - 50 and maxes out all crew skills on auto-pilot...

[Salryc]

You're contradicting yourself. How do you better yourself, against yourself.. if you don't have proof that you're doing better? i.e. no combat log, or damage meters. You can't, fact.

 

Oh my. You're serious? I have to say, I'm a bit taken aback that this is something that needs to be explained. I thought it was one of the concepts of real life. My appologies though, let me try:

 

I kill faster. I have less group members die. I am able to complete more challenging content. These are simple examples of competing against yourself.

 

If at first I don't succeed, then I try again, and enjoy the attempt.

 

Here's a specific example for you. Attempt a 4+ heroic on Alderaan with only 2 players and 2 companions. It's a 4 person group, right? Get smoked when we first start. Improve our gear, discuss tactics, and try again. Make it half way through. That's progress. Change tactics a bit more, and try yet again, and complete the heroic. Each attempt made progress, then journey was entertaining, and working within the group with the group dynamics is a form of competing against myself and my previous attempts.

 

End result: great date night, much giggling and foul language yelled, and a memorable event that I will be able to recall 10 days later. Unlike raids where the entire group is using an add on, and I couldn't tell you about how it went the day after, except that we achieved the silly virtual reward. My enjoyment is the experience, not the loot.

[Tanntolas]

Addons have already been confirmed for post launch. These "debates" are entirely pointless.

[DevonDs]

The reason I am against add ons is simple. They create a different game experience for those that have them vs. Those that don't . Your comparison of add ons to websites is to me like comparing reading a book on how to golf vs. Using a gyroscopic golfball.

 

My reason for being against add ons is this. The game is pegged to a certain level of challenge...this level of challenge is reached by balancing three things, two of which are currently controlled by bio ware ( how difficult the game is and the tools players use) and one of which is controlled by the player (player skill).

 

Adding add ons removes bio wares control over tools available and as such adds a second variable which makes balancing the game even harder.

 

For example, people start using an add on that helps them be more efficient as a healer...it may not make the game easier for them but it adds to their efficiency....now those that use the addon are more efficient not just because of their skill but also because they us an additional tool...... So healing for some teams groups etc. Becomes more efficient...leading to calls for nerving and or content being changed to reflect the new paradigm which then makes things worse for those that are not inclined to scour the web downloading add ons....

 

Whether I use them or not add ons will effect game balance and I am very against their inclusion and the addition of such an um Otto led variable.

Edited January 10, 2012 by DevonDs

[Zachajariah]

The fact of the matter is, both anti add-on people, and people who are for add-ons are paying customers. We should both get what we want. The only way to compromise this is to allow the use of third party add-ons. If you're against them I will repeat myself, don't use them.

 

Honestly, what do you care if somebody else is using an add-on like DBM? How does it effect your gameplay other than getting into hard-mode guilds? Is it really going to effect your day if some others are using recount to be more effective? You obviously aren't a very competitive person, but that is your prerogative.

 

Like I said before, it's only fair that the whole SW:ToR population gets what it wants as paying customers, and that is add-ons. Just let the people against them choose to not use them.

[jdela]

Lots of different topics here, so I'll stick to add-ons.

 

#1 - My first problem with add-ons is the maintenance of add-ons. See WoW, it was a pain to manage add-ons and I eventually stopped using them all for this reason and reason #2.

 

#2 - Crap coding that affects the performance of the game. I have used 'recommended' or 'required' add-ons that just made the game unplayable.

 

#3 - Some add-ons become required. It happened in WoW and WAR. If you are missing some add-ons it just makes you plain less effective. And since add-ons are not part of the game this goes back to #1 and #2. If it is something eveyone should use, include it in the game not as an add-on. I'll put my biggest pet peeve into this list: Voice chat. I don't want to manage a voice server, I don't want to ensure I have it all setup before I play. If voice chat is necessary, inlcude it in the game client.

 

#4 - Delusions of perfect rotation or whatever. I guess there is the true understanding where you are parsing logs of actual fights to test rotations vs target dummies. Target dummies tell you nothing, they are the optimal scneario with a non-moving target. For the other, I enjoy playing a game, not parsing spread sheets. I can parse spread sheets at work. I won't do it, so I'll use forums to find what others have deemed to be the opimal rotation and spec if I have to.

 

TLDR; I want to play a game, not fuss around with add-on maintenance. Some become required, which then should be part of the actual game and not a crappy add-on. Bad coding = bad performance.

[Halbe]

Addons have already been confirmed for post launch. These "debates" are entirely pointless.

 

The level of exposure they give to the client and it's information, however, have not been confirmed.

 

Giving the user's the ability to skin their UI is much different then giving them the ability to build in functionality.

[Eldren]

EscVelocity:

 

My contention against add-ons isn't that they make the game easier; at least, I don't make that statement as a complaint. My complaint against add-ons is the behavior they bring forth. I don't think they create the behavior, I think they provide an easy method for it to come out from where it was already hiding.

 

For every person who uses a damage meter as a tool to better themselves personally, you have 10 who use it to tell other players they somehow aren't "good enough". I think people are overanalyzing the whole thing, as there's nothing competitive about the TOR PvE environment: there are no tournaments, there are no achievements showing a world/server first.

 

The instant you use add-ons to even remotely automate a basic function of the game, you're no longer playing the game BioWare worked for years to design. You're playing your own copy of it. You can no longer say you're good at the game, you can only say you can operate the game with the add-ons present.

 

They become a crutch. If you don't believe me, look at all the posts saying the game "needs" this or that add-on functionality: the desperation in many of those posts is clear. "I can't do my best unless I can see who's doing their worst!" the damage meter proponents cry. "I need to see who died to what when and how!" the combat log proponents wail.

 

These bits of information aren't needed. I suggest learning to play the game with the tools it provides us. The people who are walking around in endgame gear at that point can then say with pride, "I did it." They're the ones who are "skilled" at The Old Republic.

[DevonDs]

Look at what I said a few posts up. They certainly do play the game for you.

 

It doesn't matter if I use them or not, they will effect overall balance of play and there for effect me.

 

Bottom line ....if the game is too hard to play without add ons then the game is too hard and needs to be changed...if the game can b played by mostvwithout them then the game is balanced and add ons are an unneeded edge for some players.

[DevonLoy]

I've read a lot of threads like this in the past few weeks and it seems to have the same recurring algorithm ( Random OP that calls out for a specific answer, it's given, then it's a back and forth between the two sides of the topic.)

 

 

In my opinion if your looking at this in terms of informative addons like a damage meter or a dps meter and not heal bots and macros etc..

 

Then the real question is "Do You Really Need Them" because for me and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. It is fairly easy to just look at the screen during combat and go. "If I use these moves it seems like I'm doing more damage." It's just a question of your comprehension

skills.

 

 

But in terms of an option to inspect players. Its worked in select other mmo's, but it's only used by people who are really really hardcore in choosing groups. I usually just ask them what there armor rating is if there the same class as me (Jedi Guardian) and the same level but it looks like they have worse gear (or better in some cases).

 

P.S. I have never kicked someone out of a group in games that have inspect option,

 

Because its like the douchiest thing ever to say. (Your gear sucks ****) like come on.

[Salryc]

Thanks, it's good to know there's at least one anti-addon person who is consistent with their stated reasons. From what I've read in others, people are cherry picking at add-ons on the basis that it "makes the game easier", while they use ADDitional websites to "make the game easier" for themselves. I sense a bit of ignorance of some, because the way they describe add-ons is as if they think an add-on is the equivalent to a software bot that levels 1 - 50 and maxes out all crew skills on auto-pilot...

 

I also think it might be a bit generational. I mean MMO generations, not player age.

 

Those of us who started in the UO/EQ age had it rough. Dialup was the best we could get, we had to walk uphill in the snow, both ways... No wait, wrong story.

 

But seriously, we learned to love a feeling of struggling to overcome. That feeling is mostly removed by many (not all) of the add-ons that people are begging for. See the comments about grid healing. I used to have a rush trying to heal a 20 person group, as the only healer, with only a mouse and a single hot key heal (bandages, which required an item stack in inventory!). The thrill of keeping up is what made me addicted to the genre of MMOs.

 

Compare that to the crowd that came in with EQ2, WOW, and even more modern games. Those games made a brilliant decision to market to more casual gamers, and then give those casual gamers everything that they need (via add-on systems) to be successful. And successful they were/are. For that MMO generation, their excitement is in chasing the next level of loot, or in game recognition.

 

There's nothing wrong with either play style, but they are vastly different. When you try to make both of these styles of gamers happy, well.... we get the debate we're having.

 

And thank YOU for forming intelligent and coherent questions, as opposed to the common "so you hate add-ons, doesn't that mean you just suck" type of questions.

[Salryc]

Addons have already been confirmed for post launch. These "debates" are entirely pointless.

 

And denied, and confirmed... all in a vague way. Will they allow UI modification only? Complete add on systems? No one has said. If they have, no one has dared to link to the source.

 

Plus, keep in mind that the game was scheduled to release in "spring 2011" too. So we do tend to take things with a grain of salt.

[Rattius]

I'm not enjoying this game NEARLY as much as I could without having a damage meter. I like to perfect my rotation and not knowing what my best rotation is, I feel like I am just hitting random stuff. This is just not as enjoyable to me. If we don't get add-ons I feel like I will quit.

 

Good LORD.

 

I'll say it for the hundredth time...

 

WE ARE GETTING COMBAT LOGS!! Bioware has stated this maqny times. GEEZE people L2R please.

 

With the combat logs will come parsers. With parsers comes combat analysis of all kinds including rotation optimization.

[Slightlycampana]

I'm pretty sure add-ons don't play the game for you... and I know this has been said a thousand times before but, if you don't like addons don't use them.

 

This is not always an option. If some people use addons for certain things, everyone else has to use them to stay competitive. So I would be forced to use them too.

[Meluna]

Hey, everybody! We already have a great discussion thread dedicated to talking about the topic of addons and mods. Since this is really just a discussion of another facet of the reasoning behind whether people would like to see them in the game or not, if you'd like to share your thoughts, you'll find the discussion thread here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=72880

 

We're going to close this thread and ask that this discussion continue in the existing thread, so we can keep the conversation a little better consolidated. Thank you!