LFG Tool is NOT Needed

[Napalm_AKI]

I could swear that reading posts from No-LFG/LFD tool crowd is like reading news about the recent actions by the ultra-orthodox element in Israel. They keep whining that the society doesn't conform to their point of view, and try to force upon everyone else their morality choices. If you don't drink alcohol, use condoms and watch the TV, doesn't mean no one else is allowed to do that either.

 

You can have your guilds/friends/elite group/general channel LFG spam, let us more casual players have an LFD/LFG tools, it may save us some time and let us actually play the game more in what little time we have between working, family abligations and what not.

[maradigamer]

Oh, and to answer your other question, no, I don't care how many times I fail because I pug. If I have that much of an issue with it, I know how to find a guild.

 

But repair costs need to come down regardless. I'm racking those up just playing solo.

[Slaggo]

It is needed. When Fleet has 30 people in it, I am not sitting in there with my thumb in you know where for an hour waiting on someone to log in, spamming over and over. I want to que LFG for Esseles, head to Corrusant and start questing. When I get a popup, I can go experience that content....

 

 

I don't hang around the fleet for a FP run either. I just LFG with my guild and its ally, lol.

 

There *are* benefits to joining a decent guild and making friends, which eliminates the need for a dungeon finder tool.

[Taroen]

Here's the thing. There's already a lot of support for lfg. If you think Bioware cares nothing about the quality of their content you're arguing a lost cause, lfg will be implemented to please the masses and you will lose out.

 

If Bioware does care about the quality of their content, there is no reason to fear lfg because they won't give in to the people who want it dumbed down.

 

Ahhh the caveat... The notion that a vocal minority crying on the forums constitutes "the masses".

 

But if Bioware creates the group for you and you can never complete the content, you'll be right back here on the forums demanding that they win the game for you.

[Kurnea]

Interesting. I have to admit that I've never really cared to check into their actual sub numbers.

 

The problem is that even then, it was conjecture and hypothesis on why people where leaving. Could've been the economy, could've been other games out at the time. My theory always was that the game was getting older and gamers eventually feel the need to do something else with their free time.

 

 

 

They had gone that long without learning to play because none of the content required them to learn anything. They were faced with a challenge. Learn to play or no new shiny purples for you! They had been coddled for so long that they were angry that Blizzard was withholding their goodies, but, like most MMO players, including myself, they will take some things they don't like and deal with it. In my case, the things I didn't like finally snowballed to the point where I dropped my sub.

 

Point still is that 'sticking to their guns' wouldn't force them to 'learn to play' one way or another. They'd hit a challenge, get frustrated, and either go back to leveling alts or eventually just leave the game. Personally, I don't see the problem with there being easier content, so long as harder content remains an option.

 

But if Blizzard hadn't caved so fast, you can bet that a lot of those people who complained endlessly about the content being too hard would have seen all of the other people beating it constantly, and would eventually have realized that the problem was the way they were playing.

 

Uh, they could see people beating the content constantly from the start. Obviously you were not a regular in general at the time, or you would have seen the massive forum arguments I'd have with people where I'd try to explain that BWD and the like weren't really that hard. Again and again, people would say that the problem wasn't them, but rather that the content was the problem. Trust me when I say that there are plenty of people that wouldn't have realized what you're saying.

 

 

Well, like I said, I wasn't around for Firelands, but all of the content before it was nerfed to be far too easy, just to satisfy the people who want to rush in and bash their loot pinatas.

 

Even post nerf, the heroic content was still fairly difficult. The problem at the time is that raiding only had two modes, normal and heroic. Again, with three difficulty modes in TOR, shouldn't be as big a problem.

[Sargantas]

You are talking about a single player game because you have an expectation you should be able to access any of the content at any time.

 

This is not the case in a multiplayer game. Your ability to do so depends on other players and therefore you have absolutely no entitlement. If you DID then the devs would be required to make all content solo-able.

 

You do realize that you are securing that you are more entitled to gear/content because you have a long list of friends that you've made over years, and are therefor better than someone who just started playing when this game was released. You're argument basically tells me you want to be 'special' and one of few people on a server who is geared. That attitude will ruin swtor faster than a lfg because for the game to survive people must pay to play, and in your world most people will quit and refill WoW.

[maradigamer]

I don't hang around the fleet for a FP run either. I just LFG with my guild and its ally, lol.

 

There *are* benefits to joining a decent guild and making friends, which eliminates the need for a dungeon finder tool.

 

 

So what about the players who don't like being in guilds or who join a pvp oriented guild or who buy the game later and join a guild with mostly 50s who don't want to get on their alts to help some noob level? Or what about people who play at off peak times on low pop servers and/or don't have more than an hour or two every day to play? Why throw these players to the wolves? Why not give them a chance to pug and learn to play?

[maradigamer]

Double post Edited January 11, 2012 by maradigamer

[Taroen]

I could swear that reading posts from No-LFG/LFD tool crowd is like reading news about the recent actions by the ultra-orthodox element in Israel. They keep whining that the society doesn't conform to their point of view, and try to force upon everyone else their morality choices.

 

I think you have that backwards there, bud.

 

The game as it exists now is great, and you guys are in here trying to change it and make it conform to your easymode instant-gratification mores.

[Halbe]

How can you reply to my posts so often and never seem to read a word that I've written..?

 

The problem exists because of the tool. Those people weren't able to complete the content because they were tossed in with a bunch of other random people and didn't know how to work together. That's what the tool does. They didn't fail because of their gear, and Blizzard didn't nerf the instances so players could see their content. The players were seeing the content just fine. They saw it stomp all over them because they didn't know how to play. They were coddled by easy-mode Wrath content.

 

ALL BECAUSE OF THE TOOL.

 

How can you post so many times, yet show a sheer lack of understanding on MMO's?

 

You think it's the tool that caused it to be dumbed down?

 

Honestly?

 

You think it had nothing to do with the record setting number of players the WoW brought in, many of which had no prior exposure to MMO's?

 

You think it had nothing to do with the new generation of players, young players, and their sense of entitlement?

 

You think it had nothing to do with the older, working crowd now that played UO, EQ, ect and now didn't have the time to put into being hardcore anymore?

 

It was the LFG tool?

 

I'm not doing any more research for you, as you disregard any factual data posted, but go look at the number of players who have the current tier of WoW beaten on Heroic.

 

Go look, I'll wait.

 

.........

 

Ah, just kidding, I know you wouldn't go look at actual information:

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3342098250?page=3

 

It's a bit older, but the point stands.

 

NO, NOT EVERYONE SEE'S CONTENT.

 

That's why Rift is adding the ability to solo-duo instanced content. It's why WoW periodically does the major nerfing to raids. So people can see content.

 

2.x'ish subscribers of WoW (estimate, I'm not sure what the current sub number is) and you think 1.4% seeing beating the normal raid content is "players progressing".

 

Yea, guess game companies arn't doing this to show content. I mean, all indicators point to it, but if you just say so.

 

Bad players are bad. Just because a player is in a guild, doesn't make him good.

 

Just because a player joins a group with friends, doesn't make him good.

 

And just because you say the LFG tool is the root of all evil, doesn't make it true.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Halbe

[maradigamer]

Ahhh the caveat... The notion that a vocal minority crying on the forums constitutes "the masses".

 

But if Bioware creates the group for you and you can never complete the content, you'll be right back here on the forums demanding that they win the game for you.

 

 

I'm betting the vast majority of content can be completed by halfway competent pugs right now. Could be wrong, of course. But if I am wrong, where are all the posts by people asking for it to be dumbed down right now? Not all guilds are competent, so a few of those should already be hollering plus there are the people who are managing to find others to pug content with, where are their complaint threads?

 

Also, if the people asking for lfg are the minority, you're wasting your time in this thread, Bioware surely knows how many players are in guilds and doing the group content with their guildmates as opposed to how many are forlornly waiting hours for some random people to do flashpoints with them.

[Sargantas]

By the way, if anyone ever read bioware's initial statement about why lfg wasn't included at launch they said. Swtor has put the majority of flashpoints in the same location. This will allow players sho want to run a fl to go to this area and ask for groups (aka spam chat). Bw hopes this improves community but if this doesn't work we will look at implementing lfg in a later patch.

 

Basically bw said they wanted to see if chat slamming was viable for grouping. This thread proves its not. No one can argue that because your argument is (join a guild). That's not viable because it would require your guild to have perfect 1 tank, 1 nestled, and 2dps makeup. Always are there more dos then tanks and heals. So some guild members will be left out of guild runs forcing them to spam chat. Assuming everyone spamming chat is unguided/has no friends is your downfall. Most of time its 2-3 friends or guild members who need to fill a spot they don't have.

 

Lfg will he added bc biowares experiment with fl placement did not solve the problem. Bioware made the statement they have to follow through or risk losing customers who no longer trust them

[Taroen]

The problem is that even then, it was conjecture and hypothesis on why people where leaving. Could've been the economy, could've been other games out at the time. My theory always was that the game was getting older and gamers eventually feel the need to do something else with their free time.

 

Point still is that 'sticking to their guns' wouldn't force them to 'learn to play' one way or another. They'd hit a challenge, get frustrated, and either go back to leveling alts or eventually just leave the game. Personally, I don't see the problem with there being easier content, so long as harder content remains an option.

 

But it didn't, did it? The only harder content that was left was raids. They could have allowed the heroic mode dungeons to stay heroic, but it wasn't enough for the faceroll crowd to be able to bash through the normals.

 

Those people wanted their purples, and if Blizzard didn't give them outright, they would have figured out a way to get them on their own.

 

Uh, they could see people beating the content constantly from the start. Obviously you were not a regular in general at the time, or you would have seen the massive forum arguments I'd have with people where I'd try to explain that BWD and the like weren't really that hard. Again and again, people would say that the problem wasn't them, but rather that the content was the problem. Trust me when I say that there are plenty of people that wouldn't have realized what you're saying.

 

Oh, I know it went back and forth and back and forth. I was actually active in the forums at the time, which is rare for me. I was there because I didn't want to see the content nerfed to hell and gone, just like I don't want to see it become normal here. Those people refused to believe that the problem was them, and they were making every excuse in the book, but they would have had to relent at some point if Blizzard hadn't caved.

 

And they caved fast.

 

Even post nerf, the heroic content was still fairly difficult. The problem at the time is that raiding only had two modes, normal and heroic. Again, with three difficulty modes in TOR, shouldn't be as big a problem.

 

I disagree. I think it was made way too easy and it became boring. The raiding isn't even at issue, really. Just because I raid doesn't mean I don't have toons that will need the 4 man content. I want hardmodes to stay hardmodes.

 

There is nothing heroic about recklessly steamrolling your way to a boss that has zero chance of beating even the most disorganized of groups.

[Halbe]

You know what's actually funny in all this.

 

The LFG tool in WoW added the "Luck of the Draw" bonus, probably the biggest "Nerf" in WoW with regards to heroics.

 

Yet, if you formed your own group. It didn't affect you. You didn't get it. You only got it for being in a random group.

 

Did they still do some nerfing? Sure, but not until months after release (unless you're wearing that tin foil hat).

 

So, the biggest "Nerf" didn't affect those people who formed their own groups.

 

It wasn't about the difficulty. It was about little Johnny getting to wear the same gear as you.

[krookie]

I always find it funny when people claim that a LFG tool ruins the community. The MMO community has already been ruined for years, once the masses got access to the internet and computers able to run games.

 

Look at your server. Go to the fleet or any planet that has a high population. Just read the chat there. That is your community without a LFG tool. How can a LFG tool make it any worse?

[maradigamer]

You know what's actually funny in all this.

 

The LFG tool in WoW added the "Luck of the Draw" bonus, probably the biggest "Nerf" in WoW with regards to heroics.

 

Yet, if you formed your own group. It didn't affect you. You didn't get it. You only got it for being in a random group.

 

Did they still do some nerfing? Sure, but not until months after release (unless you're wearing that tin foil hat).

 

So, the biggest "Nerf" didn't affect those people who formed their own groups.

It wasn't about the difficulty. It was about little Johnny getting to wear the same gear as you.

 

I'm starting to think that last part might be the real reason for all this uproar.

[Taroen]

I'm betting the vast majority of content can be completed by halfway competent pugs right now. Could be wrong, of course. But if I am wrong, where are all the posts by people asking for it to be dumbed down right now? Not all guilds are competent, so a few of those should already be hollering plus there are the people who are managing to find others to pug content with, where are their complaint threads?

 

Also, if the people asking for lfg are the minority, you're wasting your time in this thread, Bioware surely knows how many players are in guilds and doing the group content with their guildmates as opposed to how many are forlornly waiting hours for some random people to do flashpoints with them.

 

Because the faceroll crowd doesn't have enough 50s yet.

[maradigamer]

Because the faceroll crowd doesn't have enough 50s yet.

 

Tell the truth. This is really all about you and your guildmates having gear no one else has, isn't it?

[RichLather]

This thread misses the point ENTIRELY. How can you be so blind to the obvious? Did half of you even graduate the third grade?!?! People want it, if you dont want to use it then DONT USE IT!!!! Other paying customers do want one, and do want to use it.

Put one in for the paying customers who want it, and let the wierd people that enjoy typing in "DPS LFG DUNGEON X!!" for hours on end because they think that qualifies as a "social experience" continue to do so. Threads like this do NOTHING but allow the developers to continue to be lazy, stop giving them excuses and try to use that little brain for 5 seconds. Stop making posts that influence the developer to REMOVE or NOT ADD basic features that other paying customers would like to use. Advocating for other customers to be miserable with a product is logically a broken idea, it literally makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited January 11, 2012 by RichLather

[savagepotato]

By the way, if anyone ever read bioware's initial statement about why lfg wasn't included at launch they said. Swtor has put the majority of flashpoints in the same location. This will allow players sho want to run a fl to go to this area and ask for groups (aka spam chat). Bw hopes this improves community but if this doesn't work we will look at implementing lfg in a later patch.

 

Basically bw said they wanted to see if chat slamming was viable for grouping. This thread proves its not. No one can argue that because your argument is (join a guild). That's not viable because it would require your guild to have perfect 1 tank, 1 nestled, and 2dps makeup. Always are there more dos then tanks and heals. So some guild members will be left out of guild runs forcing them to spam chat. Assuming everyone spamming chat is unguided/has no friends is your downfall. Most of time its 2-3 friends or guild members who need to fill a spot they don't have.

 

Lfg will he added bc biowares experiment with fl placement did not solve the problem. Bioware made the statement they have to follow through or risk losing customers who no longer trust them

 

This is precisely why Bioware should not kneejerk and add a tool now.

 

The game is less than a month old. There is no level 50 population yet to speak of, and the majority of people are out doing quests in their own little bubble.

 

People are manufacturing a problem that doesn't exist to force their agenda, which is to make the game as close to WoW as possible, or completely into it.

 

I truly hope Bioware sticks to their own convictions and does not develop on the whim of forum complainers.

Edited January 11, 2012 by savagepotato

[Taroen]

How can you post so many times, yet show a sheer lack of understanding on MMO's?

 

You think it's the tool that caused it to be dumbed down?

 

Honestly?

 

YES. IT IS.

 

Don't you get it..?

 

The ONLY reason that Blizzard nerfed the heroic modes right after the Cata release was BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE FROM THE TOOL WERE FAILING IT AND CRYING ABOUT IT.

 

You can't drop people in a random group and expect them to complete harder content.

 

They were seeing the content just fine. They just weren't WINNING IT.

 

Dumbing down the content doesn't make it more accessible... It just makes it easier to beat.

[savagepotato]

YES. IT IS.

 

Don't you get it..?

 

The ONLY reason that Blizzard nerfed the heroic modes right after the Cata release was BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE FROM THE TOOL WERE FAILING IT AND CRYING ABOUT IT.

 

You can't drop people in a random group and expect them to complete harder content.

 

They were seeing the content just fine. They just weren't WINNING IT.

 

Dumbing down the content doesn't make it more accessible... It just makes it easier to beat.

 

Pay attention people. You asked for it to be explained to you.

 

This is FACT.

 

This is WHY it affects the game for everyone.

 

End of story.

[maradigamer]

This is precisely why Bioware should not kneejerk and add a tool now.

 

The game is less than a month old. There is no level 50 population yet to speak of, and the majority of people are out doing quests in their own little bubble.

 

People are manufacturing a problem that doesn't exist to force their agenda, which is to make the game as close to WoW as possible, or completely into it.

 

I truly hope Bioware sticks to their own convictions and does not develop on the whim of forum complainers.

 

I'm actually a compulsive alt roller. I really don't care much for endgame content. While leveling whichever alt strikes my fancy, I just want to be able to queue for whatever instances are available for my level. No fuss, no muss, no spamming some stupid chat.

 

And then, yes, I'd like to be zoned in and good to go, but I can live with hoofing it there instead. It's just a nice break from pvp and pve soloing and I don't see what the problem with it is.

 

Someone also mentioned that two tiers of difficulty depending on whether someone pugs or joins with their guild is possible, but I'd prefer one tier of difficulty and letting us puggers learn the hard way. I don't like easymode content anymore than raiding guilds do. It just happens I don't care to join a raiding guild because I don't really like most of you guys, either. Sorry!

[LordAposno]

Sorry, but that's just not the case. As with any game, some of the content has requirements. For some content, it's a strict gear check. For some content you have to compete other content. And for some content, you need to gather a group of your friends to do it. There are a great many games on the market that have multiplayer aspects where you need a friend or two with you... Even non-MMOs.

 

Granted, some of them are lobby games that create groups for you... But I don't want Star Wars to become a lobby game, and I don't think that it was ever intended to be one.

 

The entitlement mentality is what is wrong with some of the current MMO crowd. So many people in WoW cried that they payed just as much as everyone else, and they deserved to get raid gear too, so Blizzard created the great and powerful welfare epics.

 

Blech.

 

You don't deserve to win the game just because you bought it. Do what is required to complete the content, or don't. But please stop with the entitlement mentality.

 

 

 

Where did I say I was exempt from the requirements? All I want is an effective way to group with other people. I am entitled to the content as a paying customer. It is up to me to meet the requirements of the particular encounter. I never mentioned skipping the requirements. Finding a group should in no way be a gate to content. My LFG need is for pre 50 content. I do not know how easy or hard it is to find groups at end game. This is not about gear, I don't know why you keep bringing that up. As long as players meet the requirements they should have a method to access all content. You don't deserve to have epic gear all to yourself. Please stop with the elitist attitude.

[Rigota]

I am not going to behave differently in a group that i joined with LFG tool or a group that i joined with a general chat. So i don't see any problem for a LFG tool. And if people cant behave it is their problem. If you cant handle the content or playing severely bad it is also informal that you joined a group with the lfg tool.

And for finding a group faster it false to say LFG tool does not increase the speed of finding a group.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Rigota