You and I differ greatly on our definition of PvP.

This has come up in EVERY game that has had open world PvP. 1.) Someone camps lowbies. 2.) Someone brings it up on the forums. 3.) Someone posts the blurb above. 4.) Person doing the camping is repremanded in game (usually just a shove-off by the GMS). 5.) Elite Guards are now placed in even more areas because of people doing this.

God, you remind me of a Sabetour in Rift. "Any GOOD Sab will use more than just sticky bomb (can't remember the skill name) and detonate. We use LOTS of skills." That's not the point. Get that through you're head. I don't care how many buttons you COULD use. The point is that it is perfectly plausible for a person using 1 button to, seemingly, put out as much DPS as some builds good rotations. There are reasons we don't have combat logs. I'm guessing this is one of them. It's a broken skill. You keep defending it in the context as the entire rotation. Good for you. You use other skills. That doesn't fix the fact that this one skill is broken.

That's the problem, a mechanic like this is retarded because the actual ability to apply buffs/debuffs/proper rotation is damn near impossible to balance. If it hits to hard, it's going to be abused as an end-all, be all attack, not to mention before building up you're actual other abilities, it hits pretty dang hard. If it hits to weak, you're dependent on your "finishers" or reactive abilities to pop and attack, and you'll be at a distinct disadvantage if a player is paying attention. If its too quick a cast time, players will just spam it. If it's too long a cast time, players won't have time to build up before being killed. Using one ability as a pre-req to an entire rotation is a dumb mechanic in PvP (ask Sabs in Rift).

Hell, I'll do you one better. Here you go: 1.) Pre 1.1, Operatives should have been nerfed. I'm a 50 Operative, Hyper Space Cannon, and there was not a class when stacking buffs I couldn't kill in 6 seconds if crits broke my way. Even then, You weren't getting far. Tell me why the nerf should not have happened. 2.) Tracer Missle Spam is retarded. I don't care if it's to set-up their other abilities. It's moronic, and the skill needs nerfed. It should be MMO PvP law, "Thou shall not have a class that has one and only one skill define it." Good ones don't do this, I get that, but the skill itself, outside of it's debuff/set-up, is moronic. It needs fixed. The skill needs nerfed, the class needs it's mechanics fixed. Tell me why I'm wrong. 3.) Another MMO PvP Rule - YOU DO NOT TAKE AWAY CONTROL! You can not take away control from a character. You can't. It's moronic. When you're facing 6/8 Sorcs in a Warzone and you're trying to cross the bridge in Voidstar, good luck. One's gonna knock you off. Or into fire in Huttball. Or pulled/force pushed somewhere. These abilities are just as bad as the buffed Op's pre 1.1. It's an instant kill. People whining for the nerfs are correct in one respec, it needs changed, because it's dumb. But their wrong in where they place the blame. But I can work with that. You pointed out a flaw, be it incorrectly, and it's truely a problem. It's not an idea of a straight nerf, it needs changed though. They are cries for nerfs that point out bigger issues with the games design/mechanics. It's not anyones fault but yours if you can't identify them through the nerf cries. And P.S. - Pre 1.1, I'd have smoked your ***. You'd better thank all those "Nerf Criers".

Very nice, and what I would expect on these forums. Call the analogy a poor one without refuting it. If there was a way to roll a new forum avatar to be a better poster, I'd assume you'd do so now. You seem like that type of person to look for an advantage. Not to mention the absolute hypocrisy of your post with regards to the first two sentences, and then the hyperbole you use in your last to stress your point. Well played. No refute, and yet use the same hyperbole as you accuse me of. 10/10. Your post is a shining beacon of why MMO PvP now sucks. It's you guys. Everyone defending this thread. Every one of you are ruining PvP. You've accepted piss-poor. Are there pathetic players that cry "NERF" at every corner? Sure there are. They are just as guilty. But I would rather hear 10,000 cries on the forums as long as 10 of them are correct in their arguments, instead of dead silence when there are obvious crappy mechanics and features like you suggest. But to lump everyone in is moronic. Even past that, you're ruining the genre. You're killing PvP, and you don't care because at THIS moment, it's probably benefiting you. Stop. Seriously, stop. There are valid issues being raised on these threads. From mechanics (Buff stacking should have NEVER made it to live), Warzone design (Huttball, really?), to class mechanics in said warzones (Please, one of you tell me you don't have an advantage as certain builds compared to others in Huttball. I Mean, a DRASTIC advantage), to the implementation of Resolve (DR anyone. It's like Frost Shock all over again), to class skills as a whole (for example, level an Op healer through PvP. You can seriously be nearly locked out of healing until lvl 30), Open World PvP (Illum, real fun, yea), to the RNG for gear progression (good idea there). I can go on if you'd like. But no. You'd rather stick your heads in the sand. Accept crap. Don't worry, everyone will keep playing. They will. And it will never get any better. Bravo guys. Bravo indeed.

Tell you what. I'm a terrible driver. I really am. I'm guessing you're better than me. We'll race cars. For $1,000,000,000. You get 10 tries. That should be enough for you to "learn" my tendencies. Learn about your car. How it handles. How it accelerates. You'll get to learn about my car. All of it's features. It's strengths. It's weaknesses. One catch. I get to race in a ferrari. You get a 91' Accord with a blown engine. I mean, if you're that good, and can learn from your mistakes, the tools provided shouldn't matter, right?

I will quit everytime I enter Huttball. Then again, Huttball shouldn't really be considered PvP, so maybe a penalty isn't warrented.

Just had it happen to us. Didn't figure it out until they were at the force fields guarding the final doors. We were defending, and then the alarm sounds. We look around with not an Imp in sight. I've tried defending this game. I love the leveling aspect, but unless I find a good guild, I'm just playing until "The Secret World" comes out. If I'm going to play a buggy, crap game, I'm going to play one that I EXPECT to be buggy and crappy. Not one I had expectations for.

Sabs in Rift at launch would like to have a word with you. And those were some TOTALLY skilled players as well, at least they wanted you to think that. And then, when they actually removed the retarded mechanics, miraculously they all rerolled RiftBlades or whatever they were called (warrior calling). Because they were totally balanced as well and it took skill to play like everyone of them freaking did. The MMO cycle of PvP continues on.

Hell, we all know how they work. Too freaking well.

It isn't a mystery. It's common sense. If I race my Kia Sorento in a Nascar race, guess what? I'm going to lose. Now, I don't know anything about those cars. I don't know how fast they actually go. I don't know about the engine, the tires, nothing. But I know my car is not nearly on the level to compete as theirs are. Sure, you could tell me "L2DRIVE!!!!". Or, "YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THE OTHER CARS WORK. YOU ACTUALLY HAD A CHANCE!". Sure I did, if the driver didn't know what they were doing and ran into a brick wall. But if I'm just as good a driver as the other guys, they just have a better tool at their disposal to get the job done. On equal footing, all things aren't equal. You don't have to have exact numbers in some cases. If you want me to come up with the Optimum DPS rotation for my Op? Yea, I'm gonna need to see some logs. You want me to point out obvious issues? Just let me use a little common sense and prior experience, and I can do a damn fine job.

I've said this before, but I still think it holds true: I know, it isn't level 50 (OMG THAT'S WHEN BALANCE MATTERS!!), but not everyone is going to level each class to 50 to see the imbalance, and they don't have to if they have some common sense (I have a lvl 50 Op, so I'd love to talk about that as well). BUT, go start 2 new characters. One Inq/Sage. One IA/Smuggler. Get to level 10. Start leveling via the healing tree. At level 14 (after you get sprint, I don't wanna see players without it in freaking Warzones. It should be a level 10 talent anyway) go PvP. Yea, it's waaaay early in the game, but this will give you a general idea of where balance in this game currently is. Don't worry, I can verify that without a premade group, these imbalances hold true at level 50, both in PvE and PvP. I'm guessing most players that rolled a Sorc "healer" won't make it passed level, eh 25 as an Op healer. You'll then see how much of a crutch the class actually provides.

Then how can a Sorc say they aren't over powered compared to other classes? Goes both ways.

Level up a healer Operative/Smuggler through PvP.

It's been my experience that anyone who posts the following responses: "You don't know all the classes" "I hope they don't listen to the crybabies" "You need to L2P" Are the WORST players when it comes to said issues. For a good majority of the players on this board, this isn't our first MMO. For many of us, we've PvP'ed in many of those. Most sensible players like this, who have seen this type of stuff, are actually pretty good at identifying what's really borked in PvP. No, I haven't played all the classes to 50. But I, like many other PvP'ers from other games, can identify "unbalanced" when we see it. It's a talent we use called common sense. It's just something that's few and far between on these forums.

I assume you're making fun of my video reference? It's hard to see with all the fail in your post blocking my view. I saw in the other thread where you tried calling the guy out for being in a premade. If you watch that video and can't realize that it is a PUG from the git-go, you're not nearly the player you think you are.

THAT's what you took from that? This, right here, is the problem. Players have been conditioned to fear the "nerf bat". They disregard obvious problems and produce strawman arguments to try to validate their stance. I don't care that they have no utility to escape right now. That's not the initial problem. The problem is, and there is a YouTube video out there right now that shows this, you really only need one button to be successful. That's it. That is not right. It is not balanced. Balancing does not always == Nerf. You need to balance the skill in question within the class. Does that mean nerfing one skill and doing nothing else? No. That means taking the class on a hole, removing the issue in question, and figuring out what else needs to be done to alleviate the problem. You're trying to defend the idea that standing in one place, hitting one button, is acceptable. It is not. I don't care that they ahve no utility to get away at this point. Fix the problem, identify others. Don't knee-jerk and just nerf the one ability. Make sure everything else is on point as well. Oh, they aren't just a one-button pressing turret? So now how to be balance in the classes other abilities to make sure they are still a viable option? Pointing at another issue and saying, "This is why you can't fix that problem, because of this problem." is just assinine. Fix both problems.

Found this on the FoH board (I'm not a poster there, just love the banter)

Face roll as in, well, easy. Case and Point - I recently rerolled a Smuggler (Scoundrel Healer Spec). Level 29. Playing Voidstar. They break the door. Level 16 Sorc is lagging behind. I attack. She just stood there and healed through my damage. Literally, didn't move. Didn't even attack me. Just healed through it. No, not through it, past it. Interrupt? Block spell casting? Nothing. SHe still had about, eh, just under half force left. I was out of energy, as I burned it trying to kill her. She attacks me, and I can't heal through it. She then sprints off. I don't expect to kill many people in my healing spec 1v1. I really don't. But I also shouldn't have another class outheal my DPS and out DPS my healing, with what seemed as though little to no resource management on their part, while I'm trying to keep mine in an acceptable range for maximum regen. Yea, I know, not level 50 (I have a 50 Op, so I'd be more than happy to talk that as well), but I'm just pointing out how easy they are to play, even at early levels compared to other classes.

I hate this freaking argument. Then what is it? Working wtih other classes? What if you're composition has 10x the synergy as the group you're going against? Does that make you more skilled? When you are talking about balancing classes, you have to remove skill from the equation. You need to remove groups from the equation (at first). The first level of balance should be, "If two players of equal skill face off, what happens?". You then add other variables like group size and environment to that equation, making sure neither totally skews the balance. I know, it's fun to make a statement and not actually provide any answers. Saying balance isn't based on "1v1" is that type of fun, but then what's it based around?

http://imageshack.us/f/842/screenshot2012012215355.jpg/ 315k Healing + 270k DPS And there was another Sorc in this WZ that had damn near 400k healing.

It's funny how about 75% (or more) of the posts that state how Sorcs are fine include the word "We". Gee, wonder why you're against a nerf..... Fact is, anyone whose ever PvP'ed before can seperate the crying from the actual issues. I'm an Op, and I knew something was coming. Too harsh? I think so, but I knew it was going to happen. Any of these "We" people who will honestly be shocked when this nerf hits is either: 1.) Oblivious to PvP and what mechanics actually matter. 2.) Delusional. Seriously, I'm guessing most of you aren't that good. Some of you, sure. But the majority of PvP players are bad. What the Sorc class does is take a bad player and make them, well, pretty good. It doesn't take a really good player and make them great. They do have a ceiling, it's not as though they can make a great player invincible. But, for a good percentage, it makes them seem much better than they are. It's a crutch. The good players won't notice much of a nerf, if it's just reducing the abilities that have the utility, not the utility themselves. This is all contingent, of course, with Gabe knowing how to balance PvP. You guys still have hope. In Warhammer, they nerfed the burst stealth class (W.E.) and left the ridiculous ranged class overpowered for quite a while (BW). Somethings may never change.

It's not my numbers vs. theirs, it's pretty much directly from their site. See the previous page for the quote from the site's creator.

It's basically an average of the population "STATUS", not the population themselves. The creator of the site has posted multiple times on this forum the same thing, "They don't have the population numbers." What they do is weight each option, Down = 0, Light = 1, Standard = 2, Heavy = 3, Very Heavy = 4, Full = 5, and then create an average based on this. Now, the graph people always site is the graph with the Y-axis having 800, 600, ect.. and it's called a population graph. It isn't (as far as I've seen), what you actually think. It's basically the same thing, just with the different axis. Now, the biggest issue with this is if the server caps change (as they have already). Say a server had 2200 players and was considered Heavy (the line is 2000 players). But now Bioware changed it. The new line is 2500. But the servers population actually went up to 2400. It's still Standard now, and reduced teh average of all the servers, even though the population increased. It's a good site. People just misuse or misunderstand the information.