monjiay Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It worked great for warhammer. I'm sensing a trend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apax Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 DCUO uses the Unreal engine. SWTOR looks better imo. Don't confuse results with potential. All Points Bulletin used the Unreal engine and graphically it outshines either of those by leaps and bounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxpaw Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Don't confuse results with potential. All Points Bulletin used the Unreal engine and graphically it outshines either of those by leaps and bounds. So then the problem isn't the engine, since we can't judge the Hero engine by the results in SWTOR either. This whole thread is moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevex Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The game being instanced has nothing to do with the underlying engine. They built the game to utilize instancing on purpose and they did a wonderful job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apax Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So then the problem isn't the engine, since we can't judge the Hero engine by the results in SWTOR either. This whole thread is moot. Except this thread wasn't about graphics. What I was trying to explain to you (as you were talking about visuals) is that a game can visually look like garbage if the artists do a poor job, regardless of the graphical potential of the engine. I also disagree with your statement that DCUO looks worse than SWToR, especially when you factor in animations. But, everyone has a different eye for aesthetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slightlycampana Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Yes. Let's use the Unreal engine on an MMO with possibly hundreds on players in the same area. 20 fps per second on a $2k gaming rig sounds just super! Wait...no it doesn't... Unreal does actually have a version with an MMO toolkit...if that's the right terminology. It was used for Mortal Online, which frankly is no great advertisment, but I have no idea whether the horrible lag and pathing issues were the fault of Unreal or StarVault (the makers of Mortal Online). Unreal is also being used for TERA, but that game's still in beta so don't know what that's like. Edited January 10, 2012 by Slightlycampana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otakuon Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Look...the Hero "Engine" is not a graphics platform like Unreal. It is a MMO development toolkit. Graphics and such are designed using plug-ins, which can be other "engines" (like Unreal), Maya, or whatever graphic design suite you want to use. What the Hero Engine is, is a collection of scripting tools and the server back-end. It was designed from the ground up as a MMO platform. It has actually won a number of awards for being a best-in-class MMO toolkit. One of its strengths is that it allows real-time, collaborative content creation and allows for rapid deployment of updates. That is, new content can be created and added to the game on the fly while the servers are running. One of the examples given is that a designer can build a house while another works on the landscape outside and both will see each others changes in real time. So really, BW made a good decision by going with a software platform that was purpose built for online game play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gankdalf_ Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Why did they choose a engine that is so heavily instanced instead of building their own like Blizzard did? Im just wondering because I keep hearing about all the money they spent and the heart of this game the main engine seems very cheap. Any reason for this? Because they never did their research about what makes a good MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfriar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Sure, I could go completely over the top like some people comment on the forums (I mean, latest i7 with insane graphic card, dedicated ultra fast hard drives and whatnot? Hello?!) but that's just stupid. It's not as stupid as you think. I used to buy a new game computer every two years and pass the old one off to one of my daughters. However, being an accountant, I ran the numbers and found that it's cheaper to buy a really good computer and upgrade it once than a decent computer every couple of years. Especially as decent computers generally don't upgrade well for various reasons including poor cases, proprietary set-ups, underpowered power supplies, etc., etc., etc. This may change because the rate of change in software has slowed considerably in PC gaming. It used to be, for a while, the processing requirements of engines and graphics were growing almost exponentially. The GeForce of 2000 was obsolete by 2003. Now the video cards are still growing like crazy... But the need for that video processing isn't. Mostly, I think, because with console gaming taking over the market, it's really slowed down need for graphics card upgrading the past three, maybe four years as most games are built to function on consoles and ported to PCs now. Unlike a decade ago when the opposite was true. And since consoles are static in their capabilities... PC graphics are getting static because PC games, except MMOs, are rapidly becoming the third-tier market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valenthor Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 WAR and SWTOR have 2 thing in common. 1: they both tried to 'brute force' there game. WAR working with some 300 employees not including any outsourced work etc. SWTOR rumors double that. Man power is needed to a point but better tool design and better coding can and will cut your man power needs and give you less hands in cookie jar so less people walking on each others code/scripts/etc. 2: both companies had a horrible clash of politics inside. Its obvious with SWTOR, you have the old guard BW people and the folks from Mythic that were generally picked up as filler because WAR was firing everyone...But Bioware was in charge, not people with MMO experience and when Mythic folks tried to do things right, it clashed with BW egos which always causes lots of problems over the grand scheme of things. Before Mythic's massive layoffs, BioWare was openly advertising that they didn't want people with MMO experience to work on SWTOR. They wanted people with a 'fresh look'. The problem is that every company has a fresh look, and so freshly steps right into the same mistakes that everyone makes. As for anyones concerns with PvP systems, and saying "Mythic people should have known better!" well, the Mythic people on the PvP team wrote dungeons for WAR, not PvP, so they have no functional experience with it. Gabe has done a great job with Eternity Vault and the like but his lack of PvP design experience is obvious. How the hell do you know how the game is developed or how the company works? Do you have sources? Oh never mind, typical internet bull******* making stuff up based on nothing or vague source material and seeing what they want to see. You make me laugh. Pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumnutza Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So then the problem isn't the engine, since we can't judge the Hero engine by the results in SWTOR either. This whole thread is moot. This thread was moot before it started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malice_Nihilim Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You know, when I still practicing as a CPA and wanted to hire someone I never looked for people who had no experience in the accounting field for anything but an entry level staff-accountant position. I'd be like hiring a new audit manager, but one who'd never been on an audit. Or tax manager who'd never prepared a return. Just a disaster waiting to happen... Well, think of it more like 'they found someone that knew tax but had never done an accounting audit' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupieFoxtail Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Well, think of it more like 'they found someone that knew tax but had never done an accounting audit' There are many, many more ways to make a video game than there are to do taxes That metaphor isn't applicable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTijger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Are you just trolling? Are you 13 years old? How you could say this is mind blowing! EA is notorious for making bad plays and being ran by corporate suits. Blizzard will polish a game till a turd is a diamond. Diablo is going to blow SWTOR away and that's not even really it's competing market. Hell I hate Diablo type clicky games and I don't really like Blizzard but even I'm starting to contemplate playing Diablo since SWTOR is such a let down so far. EA ruined WARHAMMER which I played for 1.5 years. EA rushes all games out and this always hurts them. Personally this is the last mmo I ever try from EA. Between Warhammer and SWTOR they've chosen bad engines on both games. I hope they pull SWTOR together but to say Blizzard is clueless about gaming is so ignorant and childish it goes above and beyond hur dur. Whatever, stop being a ranting troll and compare who runs EA, who runs Bioware and who runs ActiBlizzard, does the name Bobby Kotick ring any bells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malice_Nihilim Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's not as stupid as you think. I used to buy a new game computer every two years and pass the old one off to one of my daughters. However, being an accountant, I ran the numbers and found that it's cheaper to buy a really good computer and upgrade it once than a decent computer every couple of years. Especially as decent computers generally don't upgrade well for various reasons including poor cases, proprietary set-ups, underpowered power supplies, etc., etc., etc. This may change because the rate of change in software has slowed considerably in PC gaming. It used to be, for a while, the processing requirements of engines and graphics were growing almost exponentially. The GeForce of 2000 was obsolete by 2003. Now the video cards are still growing like crazy... But the need for that video processing isn't. Mostly, I think, because with console gaming taking over the market, it's really slowed down need for graphics card upgrading the past three, maybe four years as most games are built to function on consoles and ported to PCs now. Unlike a decade ago when the opposite was true. And since consoles are static in their capabilities... PC graphics are getting static because PC games, except MMOs, are rapidly becoming the third-tier market. I see where you are going with that, but I'm going to say that evidence like BF3 argue to the contrary in the graphics department, and PCs are getting more love now because PC's out graphic the consoles and so people are starting to drift back into the PC market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malice_Nihilim Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 There are many, many more ways to make a video game than there are to do taxes That metaphor isn't applicable I think its a more limited window then you think, but the point is, 'the devil is in the details'. They are still doing similar jobs....building levels, creating game mechanics, just on a difference scale with different purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupieFoxtail Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 EA publishes The Sims Burnout SSX Mirror's Edge Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning Shank Skate Rock Band Crysis Battlefield Madden and all Bioware games Activision Publishes Call of Duty World of Warcraft Activion publishes horrible games. EA publishes good games. I'll take EA, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spynnal Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) EA publishes The Sims Burnout SSX Mirror's Edge Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning Shank Skate Rock Band Crysis Battlefield Madden and all Bioware games Activision Publishes Call of Duty World of Warcraft Activion publishes horrible games. EA publishes good games. I'll take EA, thanks. Bioware and Blizzard made fabulous games. EA and Activision purchase studios that make good games. I'll credit the creators, and not the megalithic corporations who buy and sell them. Edited January 10, 2012 by Spynnal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTuloJr Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Before Mythic's massive layoffs, BioWare was openly advertising that they didn't want people with MMO experience to work on SWTOR. They wanted people with a 'fresh look'. The problem is that every company has a fresh look, and so freshly steps right into the same mistakes that everyone makes. I get what you're saying, and I don't necessarily disagree with any of it. However, with what you're saying about their recruiting... why did BioWare create BioWare AUSTIN, a brand NEW studio with very few actual previous BioWare employees built specifically and solely for SWTOR, and then put two guys in charge of it who came straight out of SOE's Star Wars Galaxies project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanharn Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So cute to hear players talk about things they are clueless about. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malice_Nihilim Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I get what you're saying, and I don't necessarily disagree with any of it. However, with what you're saying about their recruiting... why did BioWare create BioWare AUSTIN, a brand NEW studio with very few actual previous BioWare employees built specifically and solely for SWTOR, and then put two guys in charge of it who came straight out of SOE's Star Wars Galaxies project? well, if SOE's SWG project proves anything, it was that they knew nothing about MMO then or now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupieFoxtail Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Bioware and Blizzard made fabulous games. EA and Activision purchase studios that make good games. I'll credit the creators, and not the megalithic corporations who buy and sell them. I'll credit EA for recognizing talent and bankrolling their games. I won't credit Activision, because they don't buy talent, as demonstrated by the fact that pretty much any (non-Tony Hawk Pro-Skater) game that says Activision on the front without Blizzard as dev will be tolerable at best. Edited January 10, 2012 by CupieFoxtail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTuloJr Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yes. Let's use the Unreal engine on an MMO with possibly hundreds on players in the same area. 20 fps per second on a $2k gaming rig sounds just super! Wait...no it doesn't... Everyone seems to be overlooking two major distinctions with the types of "game engines" that are being discussed. First and foremost, there are massive differences between an FPS Game Engine, and an MMO Game Engine, in how they handle "levels", "instances", "areas", "worlds", and massive amounts of players simultaneously online. Those are MAJOR distinctions with how the "engines" run. Furthermore, the most popular "Game Engines" are actually "Game Development Frameworks" that include server-side components, client-side components, developer-workstation tools, system management tools, and a smattering of other utilities to tie everything together. When SWTOR began its development, they wanted to get the product to market as fast as possible. They had four choices; 1. buy and adapt/use a purpose-built third-party MMO Game Development Framework, 2. buy and heavily adapt/transform a purpose-built third party FPS Game Development Framework into an MMO Game Development Framework, 3. adapt one of their own FPS/RPG Game Development Frameworks into an MMO Game Development Framework, or, 4. build their own Game Development Framework from the ground up. They made a perfectly valid business decision to go with option 1. Unfortunately, option 1 did not come with features that we, today, consider "modern MMO features", and BioWare Austin chose not to plan for those features to be put into the product in time for launch... SIX YEARS later. Now, Unreal isn't entirely impossible to use for an end-user game client for an MMO... after all... Aion uses the CryEngine, which was designed with FPS games in mind, not MMO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revenar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 EA publishes The Sims Burnout SSX Mirror's Edge Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning Shank Skate Rock Band Crysis Battlefield Madden and all Bioware games Activision Publishes Call of Duty World of Warcraft Activion publishes horrible games. EA publishes good games. I'll take EA, thanks. Just how much money have those two "horrible" games made Blizzard/Activision? More than Crysis, Shank, Skate, SSX, Mirror's Edge, Kingdoms of Amalur and Burnout combined for EA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTuloJr Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 well, if SOE's SWG project proves anything, it was that they knew nothing about MMO then or now I'd say what we see in front of us pretty much proves that to be accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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