Story-based themepark MMO can only fail

[Sturmlied]

I would not say TOR is doomed to fail.... but Bioware definitely did itself no favour.

 

Story has to be written first... for 8 Classes... Planets... Flashpoints etc. Implemented and the voice over recorded.

 

Voice overs need voice actors. These are not cheap and other mmos don't need those in the same amount TOR needs them.

This is an added cost to the already high development costs.

 

Add to this sound technicians, time in a sound studio (even if they have the own it costs money), processing it etc.

 

The voice overs alone need TIME and cost more money. This money needs to be compensated by subscriptions.

 

Here he come to the next big point. Someone said "just cancel you subscription and wait" but how will Bioware finance the new content? I just let this sit just like this.

 

So... I am Level 50 <insert class>... what now?

 

Ok I can start a new character but why would I? The same quests AGAIN? Ok the Class quest is different but everything else is the same. So I can only make a character of the other faction.

 

I am not yet level 50 so I can't talk end game content but what I hear is really bad and makes me concerned.

 

Because the fact is...this game more than any other stands or false with the ability to keep a steady subscriber-base!

 

Why?

 

MMOS are expensive. The HUGE Server Farms need to be paid for. You need to pay devs to fix bugs, add new features, new content.

 

For a story bases mmo you need to add to that the costs of people who write the HUGE amount of story, the voice actors and other added costs I mentioned above.

 

If REPEATABLE End game content is missing the subscriber numbers will go down... this will mean less income....

 

And now take a look at EA track record... do you think they will pump money into this if the numbers are not good?

 

What I see is TOR needs a strong MMO foundation with fun, rewarding, repeatable end game content first.

It needs to attract casual gamers as well!

 

And Bioware is unfortunately running out of time.

[Seiryuu]

Ahh, but did you pay a monthly fee for KOTOR 1 and 2 while you were playing them over and over? Let's say the next three years passes (in your words, "couple of years") with no new content.

 

Do you really feel justified in paying $600 for a game ($60 + 36*15)? Do you think other gamers will bite on that deal?

 

I do. As long as I enjoy playing it, obviously. First of all, 15$ (12.99 euros, which is actually a bit more) is small change I think (though this depends on everyone's financial situation obviously). It's the equivalent of going to lunch outside the office once a month.... Yes, add it up over 3 years and it becomes a significant amount of money, but do the same with say, toilet paper, and you could find yourself creatively recycling newspapers before you know it.

 

If the game has enough content to keep me happy, I'm willing to pay that fee to be able to play it online, interact with others, etc. But, this argument is somewhat moot, since there will be new content.

 

I can't speak for other gamers, but I'm reasonably sure there will be more like me.

 

In regards to the original subject of this thread: I don't think story-based themepark MMO's are bound to fail. Reason being that if a themepark MMO ith cr*p story can sustain, than there is no reason why adding good story to it up to the "endgame" would all of a sudden cause it to fail. The people who only play it for the story can do so, and level all available classes, which will keep them playing for some time. The people only playing for the endgame can just burn through the story and go at it at max level... Obviously, both the "story" part and the endgame need to be "good enough" to keep players playing, but there's no reason why they couldn't be.

 

Then of course there's the option of adding some story to the endgame, as well as making endgame enticing to "story players", I see some nice possibilities there as well...

[Sturmlied]

In regards to the original subject of this thread: I don't think story-based themepark MMO's are bound to fail. Reason being that if a themepark MMO ith cr*p story can sustain, than there is no reason why adding good story to it up to the "endgame" would all of a sudden cause it to fail

 

And there is the problem. The endgame is lacking the fun right now.

 

This does not mean that Bioware will not fix it but the question is will they be able to do it fast enough to keep the subscriber numbers at a level where the "story bases" is sustainable?

 

I am not talking you and me. I am talking about the numbers that will bring the funding for new content.

[Seiryuu]

And there is the problem. The endgame is lacking the fun right now.

 

This does not mean that Bioware will not fix it but the question is will they be able to do it fast enough to keep the subscriber numbers at a level where the "story bases" is sustainable?

 

I am not talking you and me. I am talking about the numbers that will bring the funding for new content.

 

That is indeed the question. Whether or not Bioware have succeeded, or will succeed, at making a viable story-based themepark MMO is yet to be determined. But to say that a Story-based themepark MMO (a SBTPMMORPG?) is by defenition bound to fail, is taking it a bit to far I think

[rijde]

Someone's parents failed.

[Sweetiegirl]

You do realise this game is completely new, right? They focus on leveling aspects now because that's where 99% of their players will be playing in.

They will work on end-game as well, just you wait. Don't be so impatient, other MMO's had terrible end-game too when they got released. That;s how it's been and how it always will be.

 

Just be patient, it will come.

[Chikai]

$15 a month? Pff, it's just money.

[archifikoss]

It fails on a fundamental level because meaningful story cannot be generated by developers faster than users consume it.

 

What goes into a good story? Plot. Memorable characters. Conflict. Change. Interesting environments. Realistic dialogue. I shudder to think of the army of people that it took to give us such 8 wonderful, moving class stories in SWTOR.

 

1-49 had all this. I loved it, every minute of it.

 

Level 50 has none of this. My companions won't interject dialogue anymore. My character doesn't grow anymore. When I log in these days, I wonder, "Why am I doing this?" And I don't want that answer to be, "because the best-in-slot gear is this way". That is the losing answer, because of this other game on the market that will provide more than the good people at Bioware ever can in that particular arena.

 

Your executive and design meetings should turn its efforts on turning SWTOR into a sandbox game. Let players write their own stories. You've shown me where my character comes from -- now give me the tools to play out the rest of his career.

 

And for heaven sakes, don't ask me to roll an alt. Your mission worked, Bioware. Your story connected me with my character. I made the choices that defined him. I want to play him, not some new random person who happens to share a last name. Don't make me turn him into some mindless raider or pvp commendation grinder.

 

Sun Tzu wrote, "You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended." Raiding bosses, dungeon finder, daily quests, commendation vendors, and all that jazz -- those are the enemy's heavily defended bastions. I beg you Bioware. Do not waste your resources assaulting those positions. You cannot hope to win.

 

I like this post, maybe because I came in expecting another rant, but it's actually a good read. And you have some good points. However I disagree about the alts. For me at least, it's more than possible to invest in a different way on every character, and have a completely different experience playing them.

 

I would actually like to see some sandbox elements in TOR... But Bioware has always been a theme park RPG company (or at least since KOTOR, I don't remember their previous games too well as I wasn't into RPGs at the time). You would essentially be asking them to become Bethesda... And I don't think they'd really succeed in that department.

 

I would at least love to see class stories expanded, with special max level class specific quest chains and high difficulty...

[Harower]

I hit 50, spent half a week feeling that "woot lets get epic'd out!" vibe, now is when the fun starts!!" Ive been a hardcore raider for years and was looking forward to it. How very wrong I was about everything this game would be. I hoped it would be kotor while levelling them the new raiding game. Pretty foolish I suppose.

 

I did all the hardmodes with a throw together piece of commendation gear. Which is funny because most hardmode fights are "get the strat and fight is easy, mess it up and instant death" No real room for gear scaling there which kinda makes the fact the pve gear is pvp gear ><

 

Seen all the story in the flashpoints so was was just doing it for the challange and the feeling of success / gear.

 

Then suddenly it hit me, gearing was pointless, pvp was pointles, trades where pointless, dailies where pointless. Collecting mounts? pointless. There is no oggrimar, there is no massive hangout place, the server are full with 80 people at the fleet. The social interaction is minimal further shown by the fact simply travelling to meet someone is really annoying with all the space stations and what not.

 

I am used to games pulling me in and me struggling to escape its alluring can't stop clutches. This hasn't happened for me with tor, which is a shame

 

 

1-49 was it, and even then there where grindy boring bits the story failed to compensate for because a lot of the quests became "taxi taxi taxi" With the same voice actors at every vendor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This game needs an open world with an open neutral city. Atm its soooo cramped and lonely to be in this game, even with a guild.

 

I already unsubbed. Disappointed but don't regret giving it a go.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Harower

[Scelerant]

That was the elephant in the room during most of the development time, the fact that the initial launch is like a band's first album, it consists of material created over a long period of time whereas now they'll need to start creating content to keep up the level of story people have grown accustomed to.

 

Personally, I find companions to be very badly done in comparison with KOTOR, Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2 (never played DA:O). Where my companions would add value in the formerly mentioned titles, I find that companions detract in a sense because they keep repeating the same dialogue the few times they do speak.

 

They also add very little outside of in-ship/cantina dialogue, especially when compared with DA2 where I'd bring certain companions along because of their funny dialogue. Hearing Kaliyo scream "I'll show you my gun" or Khem Val muttering something that sounds like a dog growling is only entertaining for about 2 levels before I felt like duct-taping their mouth shut.

 

Much of the story consists of poorly written clichés and 2-dimensional characters. The morality system is as always idiotic. Pretty much:

 

Darkside choice: Kill people.

Lightside choice : Keep people alive but force them to work with you.

 

So, not only are darkside users too dumb to understand building a powerbase and gaining allies, they are so "corrupted" that their only way of life is short-sighted sadism?

 

Add to it that the inquisitor story is just outright bad and gives none of the feeling I was expecting due to the "cloak and dagger, Machiavellian manipulation and so on" that seem to be implicit in every piece of lore about the class. Apparently my Sith Lord is the kind of leader that doesn't delegate but do even the most mundane tasks himself.

 

Furthermore, the entire Sith Inquisitor story more or less consists of my character being the personal assistant of a Darth, followed by being the whipping boy of another Darth.

 

It seems like non of the writers on staff understands the role of character and setting congruency in regards to suspension of disbelief. Lets say you are a powerful king, can you believe that if your tasks consist of sweeping floors and emptying trash bins? Lets say that on the other hand, your character is a Janitor, does it make sense that he sits in on takeover meetings and conspire to become the leader of the free world?

 

The game just lacks congruency overall.

[Sturmlied]

That is indeed the question. Whether or not Bioware have succeeded, or will succeed, at making a viable story-based themepark MMO is yet to be determined. But to say that a Story-based themepark MMO (a SBTPMMORPG?) is by defenition bound to fail, is taking it a bit to far I think

 

I 100% agree with that. I actually think that the story bases is a big chance for this game to set itself apart.

 

But it is a great challenge for Bioware. The can't just ride the "we have story" train. They need to deliver an mmo as well.

[Gerandar]

I played KOTOR three times, and KOTOR 2 nine times, I'm sure I can play this game a dozen times playing different characters for the next couple of years with out them even adding in new content.

 

 

To bad you need a lot of people to play this game or EA will pull the plug, if subs drop a ton expect a weaker showing in the expansion market as well, why pay for those voice actors if your MMO doesn't generate 1million+ subs. but only time will tell.

[Hautaaja]

It fails on a fundamental level because meaningful story cannot be generated by developers faster than users consume it.

 

What goes into a good story? Plot. Memorable characters. Conflict. Change. Interesting environments. Realistic dialogue. I shudder to think of the army of people that it took to give us such 8 wonderful, moving class stories in SWTOR.

 

1-49 had all this. I loved it, every minute of it.

 

Level 50 has none of this. My companions won't interject dialogue anymore. My character doesn't grow anymore. When I log in these days, I wonder, "Why am I doing this?" And I don't want that answer to be, "because the best-in-slot gear is this way". That is the losing answer, because of this other game on the market that will provide more than the good people at Bioware ever can in that particular arena.

 

Your executive and design meetings should turn its efforts on turning SWTOR into a sandbox game. Let players write their own stories. You've shown me where my character comes from -- now give me the tools to play out the rest of his career.

 

And for heaven sakes, don't ask me to roll an alt. Your mission worked, Bioware. Your story connected me with my character. I made the choices that defined him. I want to play him, not some new random person who happens to share a last name. Don't make me turn him into some mindless raider or pvp commendation grinder.

 

Sun Tzu wrote, "You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended." Raiding bosses, dungeon finder, daily quests, commendation vendors, and all that jazz -- those are the enemy's heavily defended bastions. I beg you Bioware. Do not waste your resources assaulting those positions. You cannot hope to win.

 

I get your point but look at the way this game is structured. Instancing, sharding, 100% theme park all the way. There is no possible way of turning this into a sandbox. And sandboxes with modern requirements for MMOs, even if all the resources were directed to it from the start, is an extremely difficult task. There have been many that attempted it in recent years and many that failed. There's a good reason why the "biggest" MMOs recently have been theme parks modeled on the WoW formula.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Hautaaja

[audioedge]

I hit 50, spent half a week feeling that "woot lets get epic'd out!" vibe, now is when the fun starts!!" Ive been a hardcore raider for years and was looking forward to it. How very wrong I was about everything this game would be. I hoped it would be kotor while levelling them the new raiding game. Pretty foolish I suppose.

 

I did all the hardmodes with a throw together piece of commendation gear. Which is funny because most hardmode fights are "get the strat and fight is easy, mess it up and instant death" No real room for gear scaling there which kinda makes the fact the pve gear is pvp gear ><

 

Seen all the story in the flashpoints so was was just doing it for the challange and the feeling of success / gear.

 

Then suddenly it hit me, gearing was pointless, pvp was pointles, trades where pointless, dailies where pointless. Collecting mounts? pointless. There is no oggrimar, there is no massive hangout place, the server are full with 80 people at the fleet. The social interaction is minimal further shown by the fact simply travelling to meet someone is really annoying with all the space stations and what not.

 

I am used to games pulling me in and me struggling to escape its alluring can't stop clutches. This hasn't happened for me with tor, which is a shame

 

 

1-49 was it, and even then there where grindy boring bits the story failed to compensate for because a lot of the quests became "taxi taxi taxi" With the same voice actors at every vendor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This game needs an open world with an open neutral city. Atm its soooo cramped and lonely to be in this game, even with a guild.

 

I already unsubbed. Disappointed but don't regret giving it a go.

 

A reasoned and well thought out post. Hits the nail on the head for me.

[Harower]

I get your point but look at the way this game is structured. Instancing, sharding, 100% theme park all the way. There is no possible way of turning this into a sandbox. And sandboxes with modern requirements for MMOs, even if all the resources were directed to it from the start, is an extremely difficult task. There have been many that attempted it in recent years and many that failed. There's a good reason why the "biggest" MMOs recently have been theme parks modeled on the WoW formula.

 

Honestly... only thing that will save it is what they have now is nothing more then a bridge to the real MMO located in a just found galaxy with open worlds and a neutral city.

 

I am not even remotely kidding to say the 150 odd million they spent making this be nothing more then a levelling gateway. Because lets be honest, thats all it is.

[Hautaaja]

Honestly... only thing that will save it is what they have now is nothing more then a bridge to the real MMO located in a just found galaxy with open worlds and a neutral city.

 

I am not even remotely kidding to say the 150 odd million they spent making this be nothing more then a levelling gateway. Because lets be honest, thats all it is.

 

I agree.. With the budget they had.. They should've strived to innovate. It's almost enough to make me laugh at how much they supposedly spent on this game and THIS is what they ended up with. I am fairly certain that Titan will not be a WoW-formula game and then the devs trying to copy WoW now and in the near future will curse the day they applied for their job..

Edited January 9, 2012 by Hautaaja

[a_Stalker]

It fails on a fundamental level because meaningful story cannot be generated by developers faster than users consume it.

 

What goes into a good story? Plot. Memorable characters. Conflict. Change. Interesting environments. Realistic dialogue. I shudder to think of the army of people that it took to give us such 8 wonderful, moving class stories in SWTOR.

 

1-49 had all this. I loved it, every minute of it.

 

Level 50 has none of this. My companions won't interject dialogue anymore. My character doesn't grow anymore. When I log in these days, I wonder, "Why am I doing this?" And I don't want that answer to be, "because the best-in-slot gear is this way". That is the losing answer, because of this other game on the market that will provide more than the good people at Bioware ever can in that particular arena.

 

Your executive and design meetings should turn its efforts on turning SWTOR into a sandbox game. Let players write their own stories. You've shown me where my character comes from -- now give me the tools to play out the rest of his career.

 

And for heaven sakes, don't ask me to roll an alt. Your mission worked, Bioware. Your story connected me with my character. I made the choices that defined him. I want to play him, not some new random person who happens to share a last name. Don't make me turn him into some mindless raider or pvp commendation grinder.

 

Sun Tzu wrote, "You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended." Raiding bosses, dungeon finder, daily quests, commendation vendors, and all that jazz -- those are the enemy's heavily defended bastions. I beg you Bioware. Do not waste your resources assaulting those positions. You cannot hope to win.

 

You are asking for something different. What would that be? SWTOR is not an old style MMO. SWG was. You could craft weapons and armour and their stats would depend on the crafter and his skill! You would scour the planets for rare resources. You would build your own home and town with other players. There was pretty much nothing you could achieve solo.

 

Modern MMOs are not like that. Solo is paramount in these games. SWTOR is not breaking away from this pattern. It is not possible to change it now. Perhaps they can provide dynamic events in some major overhaul of the game, but GW2 will be out there, it has better world (more MMO, 3D instead of 2D) and is F2P.

 

SWTOR as it stands can only succeed as a perfect copy of WOW, which unfortunately it is not...

[Spymaster]

Just because it's not story based past level 50 doens't mean it will fail. It's just not story based anymore. What MMO is story based at the end game?

 

It's more story based than any other MMO ever while leveling. That's a good thing. Just because it's impossible to continue bringing new story constantly doesn't mean you can't have fun doing non story based elements while you wait.

 

Or roll an alt of course.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Spymaster

[Raurth]

Just becuase it's not story based past level 50 doens't mean it will fail. It's just not story based anymore. What MMO is story based at the end game?

 

It's more story based than any otehr MMO ever while leveling. That's a good thing. Just becuase it's impossible to continue bringing new story constantly doesn't mean you can't have fun doing non story based elements while you wait.

 

Or roll an alt of course.

 

The problem with this is the Endgame is terribly broken.

 

My companions are now pointless except as credit farmers. They don't talk to me, there's no quests left, they're even being banished from Ilum soon so I can't use them in PvP.

 

There's no story left, the only quests in my log are Dailies and Weeklies.

 

And no, I will not, personally, pay 15quid a month to level an alt through the same zones, same quests.

[Spymaster]

The problem with this is the Endgame is terribly broken.

 

My companions are now pointless except as credit farmers. They don't talk to me, there's no quests left, they're even being banished from Ilum soon so I can't use them in PvP.

 

There's no story left, the only quests in my log are Dailies and Weeklies.

 

And no, I will not, personally, pay 15quid a month to level an alt through the same zones, same quests.

 

On this I agree. The game does need major work at the end game. I just it's not a rehash of the WoW style raiding game.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Spymaster

[Sturmlied]

Just because it's not story based past level 50 doens't mean it will fail. It's just not story based anymore. What MMO is story based at the end game?

 

It's more story based than any other MMO ever while leveling. That's a good thing. Just because it's impossible to continue bringing new story constantly doesn't mean you can't have fun doing non story based elements while you wait.

 

Or roll an alt of course.

 

You also mentioned that end game is broken and that is the main issue I have.

 

The need to deliver end game content that can compete with wow.

 

It does not matter if you hate or like wow. What they did right is to deliver a great variety of high level content that is more or less fun, easily accessible, has different degrees of time need to be rewarded.

 

- You can do 1-2h of dailys and get a reward quickly... but not to quickly... this way it stretches out the content

- You can raid with your guild or raid group... more time consuming but better rewards and less frustration factor

- you can raid via LFR... takes less time but less reward and possibly higher frustration

- you can run heroics... quick and easy

- Faction grind... time consuming, imho high frustration, little reward

- Pet collection... pure vanity factor

- Achievement's... very time consuming... no true reward

 

Not everyone likes all of these options but the options are there and they keep people busy and entertained enough to keep the subscription running.

 

TOR is seriously lacking in ALL options and that COULD hit them hard.

 

Also... why should I keep playing a game that only offers the same, just less polished as the game I played for years and that I know and I am comfy with and that offers more options?

 

Well I know the answer for myself but Bioware needs to answer it for all the other players that don't have the answer yet.

[a_Stalker]

I agree.. With the budget they had.. They should've strived to innovate. It's almost enough to make me laugh at how much they supposedly spent on this game and THIS is what they ended up with. I am fairly certain that Titan will not be a WoW-formula game and then the devs trying to copy WoW now and in the near future will curse the day they applied for their job..

 

Precisely. Innovate, break the mould, be brave. Even if you have bugs, at least you are offering a unique experience. OR make a decent WOW clone not a half-baked job which is what SWTOR is now.

[TheTurniipKing]

I played KOTOR three times, and KOTOR 2 nine times, I'm sure I can play this game a dozen times playing different characters for the next couple of years with out them even adding in new content.

Conversly, I finished both games once, and never went back. The story was told, I didn't need to see the outcomes of the other choices because I'd seen the outcomes of the choices I'd wanted to make.

 

Not everyone plays RPG's with completionist zeal.

[Sturmlied]

Precisely. Innovate, break the mould, be brave. Even if you have bugs, at least you are offering a unique experience. OR make a decent WOW clone not a half-baked job which is what SWTOR is now.

 

I have to agree with that. Why is Blizzard the only company that brings innovation into mmos?

 

You (and I) may not like the innovation they bring into WOW but they try. The LFR / LFD tool is pretty innovative and it has it's advantages, the new talent system for MOP is a bold step.... I do not like it but it's something new.

 

But what the industry needs is real innovation from different companies!

[TheTurniipKing]

You are asking for something different. What would that be? SWTOR is not an old style MMO. SWG was. You could craft weapons and armour and their stats would depend on the crafter and his skill! You would scour the planets for rare resources. You would build your own home and town with other players. There was pretty much nothing you could achieve solo.

 

Modern MMOs are not like that. Solo is paramount in these games. SWTOR is not breaking away from this pattern. It is not possible to change it now. Perhaps they can provide dynamic events in some major overhaul of the game, but GW2 will be out there, it has better world (more MMO, 3D instead of 2D) and is F2P.

 

SWTOR as it stands can only succeed as a perfect copy of WOW, which unfortunately it is not...

I think they first thing they need to do is drop levels entirely. It's nothing more than an arbitrary restriction that prevents you from having fun.

 

You can't use this gun because you're not high enough level. You're too high level to play with your friends because you'd breeze right through their quests. You can't move quickly because you've not punched enough giant bugs yet.

Edited January 9, 2012 by TheTurniipKing