Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[ferroz]

+1 internet to bioware for not giving you the tools to spam how much better u are in game.

Actually, the current direction is that people are more likely to spam that information.

 

Take rift for example; I saw FAR more parser spam in that game than I did in wow. When people use a 3rd party parser, they're much more likely to spam it than they are when most people have an in game parser.

 

expect to see a plethora of damage/heal spam once the combat log goes live.

 

if you're really in favor of avoiding combat performance spam, you should be in favor of an in game meter that doesn't allow spamming.

 

Don't pug. Problem solved.

No, I like pugging, so that doesn't solve the problem.

Dumbing down the game so you can pug is not the answer.

It's not necessary to dumb down the game so that I can pug. Edited January 10, 2012 by ferroz

[Irishbrewed]

This thread is simple, people who suck at mmo's want no meters, people who don't suck, want meters.

 

I disagree with this mentality. Yeah I'm sure plenty of suck dpsers don't want a meter giving them up. But there are two sides to this argument. First off why does SWTOR "need" meters. The tool tips coupled with the combat text tells the player priority DMG abilities versus utility ones. Which is really simple to grasp. And most ppl who plan to raid who don't know how to read will just go watch videos on how to dps. It's a simple task. But meters are not necessarily needed if there is no Hard Dps Raid designs, as in the boss encounter requires positioning and other determining factors then just a dps race. Warcraft which is where this thread stems from is designed around recount. SWTOR is not.

 

As a tank it drove me nuts that the average dpser would spend more time obsessing over recount then actually pay attention to the encounter. This lead to very poor situational awareness and very little utility from the average dpser. They just wanted to do their rotation and try and top a trivial meter. Rather then being any real asset to the group. This wasn't all dps, but by far the majority, especially pugs. Not to mention Warcraft began catering to these meters and designing encounters around recount. Which made for very boring and lame fights. I personally have seen dps spend more time worrying about there meter position then how much damage they are taking and how taxing they are on the healers. Like I said in a perfect world where everyone Keybinds and moves with the mouse and doesn't stroke meter epeen, recount would be fine. But it's not the world we live in.

 

Hope SWTOR does not cater to designing fights based on meters and spends more time teaching dps how to move and utilize their utility versus staring at a meter tryin to maximize a boring rotation....

Edited January 10, 2012 by Irishbrewed

[HillbillySith]

So the whole point of this post was to start this same argument thats been going on since EQ1? You obviously didnt want to hear from people of an opposing viewpoint, noone in here did. Thats made pretty obvious by the amount of insults being thrown around. This and any thread like it should be closed for trolling until such time as people can talk to each other like adults.

[Gohlar]

None of those are meter problems. Meters do not make choices for you. They are not automated button pushing machines.

 

They do nothing but give information.

 

 

There were addons in WoW that simply displayed what ability you should use next.

 

They did nothing but give information. You would be ok with this type of addon?

 

No, I like pugging, so that doesn't solve the problem.

 

Then be prepared for a mixed bag of results. Spoon feeding everyone exactly how to play is just dumb.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar

[Sunnen]

Recount is a great tool for making sense of the combat log and reviewing performance, however it leads to balancing nightmares and talent trees being nothing more than mathematical exercises, resulting in everyone of x class specing one way or being told they're doing it wrong.

 

I support mods that alter the UI and make it easier for the user to make sense of. Example, different group frame layouts, placement of action bars, scale, frame position etc.

 

I do not support mods or macros that automate any part of game play. For example, I do not support priority based skill macros that might use reactive abilities over another ability if reactive ability is available for use.

[Yfelsung]

So, after that one person comes out with the most optimum rotation......

 

You need software to make sure you are hitting the buttons correctly and in the correct order?

 

Nope, but I need meters to determine if a sidegrade is better for threat output given my personal reaction times.

 

Not every class has one optimal rotation, some of us have priority list rotations that aren't as set in stone.

[Spynnal]

That's a horrible analogy. Most real life ones are.

 

Recount shows you how to play the game. It makes being optimal incredibly easy. It removes needing to learn to play on your own. Your analogy makes no sense at all.

 

You made bad assumptions. You assume everyone min/max's. Not everyone who uses meters are hardcore players.

 

I'm a bit new to the game. I have no clue if alacrity or more force crit is more beneficial to my L37 sorceror. I fight the same mob packs often. With meters, I could give myself an idea of my output level using each, and understand my class a bit better.

 

Or I could blindly guess.

 

Some people just like information.

[aimbotcfg]

Don't pug. Problem solved. Dumbing down the game so you can pug is not the answer.

 

Its not dumbing anything down, its meaning that you can't be bad.

 

Let me post this again, try and read it this time folks.

 

 

Raiding with meters = Taking a multiple choice exam.

 

You studied, you learned, you take the exam, you pass, there is a sense of acievement, you move on to something else.

 

Raiding without meters = Taking a multiple choice exam where the questions are hidden.

 

Doesn't matter if you studied or learned, you have as much chance of passing as the next guy. You have 70 tries and eventually pass. Now add to this example that you can't progress untill all 15 of your friends also pass this exam all on the same attempt. But you also don't get told who failed. does this make you smarter than the guy who passed first time when he could see the questions? No, you managed it through trial and error to claim otherwise is foolish.

 

Its time for the anit-meter crew to come up with solid reason as opposed to 'I dont want to put effort in, its only a game' and 'massive generalisation coupled with insults'.

[dimster]

No, but promotions are based on performance.

 

When I worked for Xbox phone support, my promotions were directly related to my numbers.

 

And, because I had access to those numbers, I was able to improve myself to the point of being promoted faster than people who'd been there for years.

 

If I never saw those numbers, I wouldn't know where my weak points were. I wouldn't be able to push myself for the little victories, like shaving a second off my hold times, or a second off my call times.

 

Because I had access to those metrics, I was able to rise to the highest position outside of management in 3 months of working there, despite sitting beside people who hadn't been promoted in 3 years.

 

OMG OMG u are so awesome that i feel that you should quit playing games and start work on finding the cure for cancer, or faster than light travel, or clean and affordable energy. Use the awesomness on something beneficial to the society Meanwhile ill be playing the game sucking at it sometimes and thanking u all along

 

Ps don't take this too seriusly playfull sarcasm is an art form in my planet so go easy on me

[Truga]

So if you want to fly in your car, you should beat your head against the wall until you can?

 

The point is not what YOU want, but the direction of the game, which is not in line with what YOU want. If you want to beat your head against the wall demanding that your car fly, that's up to you.

 

Personally, I would just buy a plane. If I wanted Wow, I'd be back raiding in wow, not trying to make another game be wow.

 

I agree with you on that. I already said in this thread I'm against add-ons, because from my point of view, even though all in my guild want them, 90% of the pugs I pug with don't. And I honestly don't want to force this onto anyone, since this is pretty much down to preference. The good players will be even better with add-ons, and the bads will stay relatively bad compared. The do-not-wants will be left in the dust as far as competing with the top goes (and thus will start using anyway).

 

However, I will play the game to be the best (once I get all these 8 stories out of the way and find some time away from work, rather hectic at the moment), whether you give me add-ons or not. Add-ons literally have nothing to do with what you said. It's merely a matter of preference and game balance. Add-ons will lock people who don't want to use them out of some content by default, and I don't like that too much.

 

But, that won't stop me from using everything at my disposal to be better than you are, nor will I think twice about using them if they do get implemented, because they will give me an aditional edge.

[PjPablo]

There were addons in WoW that simply displayed what ability you should use next.

 

They did nothing but give information. You would be ok with this type of addon?

 

 

 

Then be prepared for a mixed bag of results. Spoon feeding everyone exactly how to play is just dumb.

 

Those addons were terrible as they were far from an ideal rotation. While I wouldn't want them in game I think we would have nothing to fear from them since they were so awful.

[Gohlar]

You made bad assumptions. You assume everyone min/max's. Not everyone who uses meters are hardcore players.

 

I'm a bit new to the game. I have no clue if alacrity or more force crit is more beneficial to my L37 sorceror. I fight the same mob packs often. With meters, I could give myself an idea of my output level using each, and understand my class a bit better.

 

Or I could blindly guess.

 

Some people just like information.

 

Or you could think about it. Crazy right?

 

You don't want information, you want a tool to tell you what to do.

[Tommyjc]

I disagree with this mentality. Yeah I'm sure plenty of suck dpsers don't want a meter giving them up. But there are two sides to this argument. First off why does SWTOR "need" meters. The tool tips coupled with the combat text tells the player priority DMG abilities versus utility ones. Which is really simple to grasp. And most ppl who plan to raid who don't know how to read will just go watch videos on how to dps. It's a simple task. But meters are not necessarily needed if there is no Hard Dps Raid designs, as in the boss encounter requires positioning and other determining factors then just a dps race. Warcraft which is where this thread stems from is designed around recount. SWTOR is not.

 

As a tank it drove me nuts that the average dpser would spend more time obsessing over recount then actually pay attention to the encounter. This lead to very poor situational awareness and very little utility from the average dpser. They just wanted to do their rotation and try and top a trivial meter. Rather then being any real asset to the group. This wasn't all dps, but by far the majority, especially pugs. Not to mention Warcraft began catering to these meters and designing encounters around recount. Which made for very boring and lame fights. I personally have seen dps spend more time worrying about there meter position then how much damage they are taking and how taxing they are on the healers. Like I said in a perfect world where everyone Keybinds and moves with the mouse and doesn't stroke meter epeen, recount would be fine. But it's not the world we live in.

 

Hope SWTOR does not cater to designing fights based on meters and spends more time teaching dps how to move and utilize their utility versus staring at a meter tryin to maximize a boring rotation....

 

I'm gonna respond to the whole thing with this, All their fights are designed around enrages, and I'd like as we're doing these nightmare modes, to see who is holding us down. It's whatever though.

[Taroen]

That's a horrible analogy. Most real life ones are.

 

Recount shows you how to play the game. It makes being optimal incredibly easy. It removes needing to learn to play on your own. Your analogy makes no sense at all.

 

Actually, you're the one that isn't making sense. Recount provides information, nothing more. It doesn't play the game for you. It doesn't "show you how to play the game".

 

I defy you to tell me how it COULD show you how to play.

[Spynnal]

There were addons in WoW that simply displayed what ability you should use next.

 

They did nothing but give information. You would be ok with this type of addon?

 

 

 

 

Start a thread about those addon types then. This one is on meters. I expressed why the argument he made equating meters to bots was wrong. You assume one leads to the other. I'm simply arguing the meters. I find them useful, and am far from hardcore, and would never use anything that tells me how to play.

[Gohlar]

Those addons were terrible as they were far from an ideal rotation. While I wouldn't want them in game I think we would have nothing to fear from them since they were so awful.

 

The rogue one was excellent so you're uninformed. But that's not the point.

 

If you want recount you should also support a tool that tells you what to do. It's just information right? Isn't that what you guys want?

 

Actually, you're the one that isn't making sense. Recount provides information, nothing more. It doesn't play the game for you. It doesn't "show you how to play the game".

 

 

It literally shows you how to play the game. It's the entire function of the addon. If you have convinced yourself that you are still figuring things out on your own all I can say is lol.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar

[ferroz]

Recount <snip> leads to balancing nightmares and talent trees being nothing more than mathematical exercises, resulting in everyone of x class specing one way or being told they're doing it wrong.

No, that's not true. That sort of behavior already exists in this game, even without combat log parsers. It existed in EQ without any sort of in game parser.

 

In general, the serious Theorycrafters (who are really the cause of that behavior) don't use in game parsers. They use external parsers that give a more fine grained detail. Having an in game parser (or not) doesn't change how much this happens in game.

[Yfelsung]

OMG OMG u are so awesome that i feel that you should quit playing games and start work on finding the cure for cancer, or faster than light travel, or clean and affordable energy. Use the awesomness on something beneficial to the society Meanwhile ill be playing the game sucking at it sometimes and thanking u all along

 

Ps don't take this too seriusly playfull sarcasm is an art form in my planet so go easy on me

 

I don't understand the mentality of people who realize they're not the best at something they do and are fine with that.

 

I just don't get how their brain processes things.

 

Life is about the drive for perfection.

 

Ultimately, it is impossible to become perfect, as there's no such thing.

 

But it's the drive to become perfect that matters.

[Jahor]

Being good at something and not wanting to waste what time you do have on the game carrying 'real man' who can't be ****ed to learn his class =/= Epeen kiddy.

 

It just means I don't want to waste time carrying you because you want to use the excuse 'its just a game' and have others pick up your slack.

 

As soon as I have the feeling to wast time ... I stop playing and start doing something else .

 

There is just no reason to destroy a relaxing hobby with elitis wannabe tools who try hard to change a RPG into a E-Spot shoter.

 

WoW was cool, I had fun while it last till Bliz desided to become e-sport competetive and all that counts are number, min/max, stress, hardcore gaming. It degenerated from a "spend some time with friends and have fun" to "who has the biggest e-peen".

 

I just need to google "rage raid leader" to know what all this min/max does.

[Spynnal]

Or you could think about it. Crazy right?

 

You don't want information, you want a tool to tell you what to do.

 

 

No, I'd like a tool to accurately let me know what I have already done. That way, in choosing future gear/traits, I'm informed.

 

Alacrity better for sorcerors than force crit? Willpower more useful than...? etc. etc.

 

I don't study the game. I don't read threads telling me how to trait. I don't do cookie cutter.

 

I play, I learn as I play, and I adapt. Meters help me learn, nothing more. I should know the damage or healing I output.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Spynnal

[PjPablo]

The rogue one was excellent so you're uninformed. But that's not the point.

 

If you want recount you should also support a tool that tells you what to do. It's just information right? Isn't that what you guys want?

 

I want raw data. I don't want nor need someone to interpret it for me which is what the type of addons you are talking about do. I'll take care of the analysis.

[Gohlar]

I don't understand the mentality of people who realize they're not the best at something they do and are fine with that.

 

I just don't get how their brain processes things.

 

Life is about the drive for perfection.

 

Ultimately, it is impossible to become perfect, as there's no such thing.

 

But it's the drive to become perfect that matters.

 

But is it still an accomplishment when you had to download a program to do it for you?

 

I want raw data. I don't want nor need someone to interpret it for me which is what the type of addons you are talking about do. I'll take care of the analysis.

 

I'd hardly call interpreting data as broken down as recount "analysis". It's more like following simple instructions.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar

[ferroz]

Or you could think about it.

That's not an "or" situation. Thinking about it doesn't give any sort of quantifiable data. So thinking about it does not replace the need for metric data.

 

Crazy right?

Well, since you're saying that guessing (thinking about it with no quantifiable data) = knowning (making decisions based on quantifiable data)... then yes, it's pretty crazy.

 

You don't want information, you want a tool to tell you what to do.

No, I'm looking for information. Edited January 10, 2012 by ferroz

[Blackardin]

Right, because he doesn't have to deal with you in his raid, making him waste time, because you're so bad, that your group hits all the enrages. My personal life has nothing to do with damage meters, you'd have to be dumb to even relate the two.

 

Did a Fly-by, did I? Went right over your head. ;p

[Tommyjc]

Did a Fly-by, did I? Went right over your head. ;p

 

Probably