An attempt to talk about endgame rationally.

[artilleryshell]

I am of the "fanboy" camp here, however, I'm not quite as feral as many of you guys are, so I'm going to try to lay out a reasonable case for the state of endgame right now, acknowledging my opponent's position.

 

(pssst. this is how grown ups argue. you should try it sometime.)

 

From what i have gathered, the issue being discussed is: bugs in endgame which make it largely unplayable and difficult to enjoy.

 

The two sides, to my understanding, are:

 

1: its an mmorpg launch, you can't expect things to all work, furthermore, as the majority of the player base is not pursuing endgame right now, it is understandably not high on bio-ware's priority list. Compare with launch of every successful mmorpg to date.

 

2: The game advertised operations, and they don't work. This is false advertising. I don't care if other mmorpgs have this same failing. If i don't pay them, then i'm not supporting this callous attitude.

 

I am a member of camp 1, and here's my explanation.

 

Demanding a game work as advertised is within your rights, however, in my experience all ambitious games which i have found the most enjoyment out of have had a lot of bugs at launch. This isn't just the mmorpg genre. Elder Scrolls games, Planescape: Torment, Trokia's Arcanum, Fallout: New Vegas, and this game all come to mind. I have more ability to stand bugs the more the game is trying to accomplish. If it mostly accomplishes alot, then I'm pretty happy, especially if the company seems to be taking an aggressive stance on fixing the bugs.

 

Sure, it sucks that the game sometimes feels like i'm playing beta, but really, its a bioware game, and bioware games, ever since the days they worked with interplay and the developers who went on to make obsidian (the black isle era), have always launched with bugs. I'm not dissapointed, this follows the formula I expected. I would share your opinion if the game did not do so many things I really like,and if their goals with the game were not as ambitious as they are.

 

You may not share my opinion, and I respect that. Hey, this type of thing isn't for everyone.

[BobTheTeepo]

I am of the "fanboy" camp here, however, I'm not quite as feral as many of you guys are, so I'm going to try to lay out a reasonable case for the state of endgame right now, acknowledging my opponent's position.

 

(pssst. this is how grown ups argue. you should try it sometime.)

 

From what i have gathered, the issue being discussed is: bugs in endgame which make it largely unplayable and difficult to enjoy.

 

The two sides, to my understanding, are:

 

1: its an mmorpg launch, you can't expect things to all work, furthermore, as the majority of the player base is not pursuing endgame right now, it is understandably not high on bio-ware's priority list. Compare with launch of every successful mmorpg to date.

 

2: The game advertised operations, and they don't work. This is false advertising. I don't care if other mmorpgs have this same failing. If i don't pay them, then i'm not supporting this callous attitude.

 

I am a member of camp 1, and here's my explanation.

 

Demanding a game work as advertised is within your rights, however, in my experience all ambitious games which i have found the most enjoyment out of have had a lot of bugs at launch. This isn't just the mmorpg genre. Elder Scrolls games, Planescape: Torment, Trokia's Arcanum, Fallout: New Vegas, and this game all come to mind. I have more ability to stand bugs the more the game is trying to accomplish. If it mostly accomplishes alot, then I'm pretty happy, especially if the company seems to be taking an aggressive stance on fixing the bugs.

 

Sure, it sucks that the game sometimes feels like i'm playing beta, but really, its a bioware game, and bioware games, ever since the days they worked with interplay and the developers who went on to make obsidian (the black isle era), have always launched with bugs. I'm not dissapointed, this follows the formula I expected. I would share your opinion if the game did not do so many things I really like,and if their goals with the game were not as ambitious as they are.

 

You may not share my opinion, and I respect that. Hey, this type of thing isn't for everyone.

 

For the most part, I agree with you. I too more closely identify with the fanboy camp, but I can discuss things rationally.

 

People have to look at this from a logical perspective. An argument I hear all the time is "This is 2012, we expect more from our MMOs!", I wish to address this really quickly.

 

MMOs are not like a normal game. You're not expected to blow the other games out of the water at launch. Every MMO launch to date has had one fault or another. STO for example, ground combat was horrible, there were many MANY glitches, end game was weaker than it is in TOR, no voice acting at all and the list goes on and on. Every MMO launches like this, MMOs are like a living organism, they start out blank, then they grow and mature into something wonderful (or at least they're intended to).

 

Do you guys think WoW wasn't full of glitches at launch? Do you think it was groundbreaking? It wasn't groundbreaking (though it had some newish things), and it certainly had it's fair share of glitches -- and look at it now.

 

Furthermore, I dislike the constant comparisons TO WoW, (I only did mine because that's what everyone else compares it to :/) I'll repeat the analogies I've used on other threads. Do you compare every past, present, and future president to good old Abe Lincoln? They all lose chances are. Do you compare how innovative every modern day singer is to Elvis? Doing so is simply wrong.

 

You judge a game based on itself, it's own merits. TOR has it's faults which only the most idiotic deny (Endgame isn't super strong, PvP is imbalanced slightly etc.), but it has some great upsides as well (Fully voiced with -- for the most part -- professional voice actors, amazing class stories that are unique to that class, a solid although kinky combat system, the true feel of Star wars etc.).

 

This game will not die fast if it does, it's not going to fail quickly. I plan to be playing for a long time to come. I'm given hope by how quickly Bioware is addressing our issues as well, less than a month now and they're fixing a LOAD of our PvP concerns in next patch, they've acknowledged the ability delay issue and are working on it as we speak. This game isn't in the best shape, but I and a lot of others love it, and while the endgame isn't as strong as it could be, I think it's strong enough for a newly launched game. Though they do need to fix the bugs.

[Dezerian]

It really comes down to this.

 

A) If they don't fix raids/dungeons before the free month is up, a lot of level 50s (which wasn't a hard level to get to since lots of people had christmas/holiday vacations) will end up quitting. They also need to work on pvp a lot, to make it a lot more functional.

[Raurth]

It really comes down to this.

 

A) If they don't fix raids/dungeons before the free month is up, a lot of level 50s (which wasn't a hard level to get to since lots of people had christmas/holiday vacations) will end up quitting. They also need to work on pvp a lot, to make it a lot more functional.

 

What this man said ^^

 

It's no use adding more content when the current content is borderline unplayable.

 

My guild has gone from 60 online during peak to 30. Most are still on vacation from holiday, they're still on Mumble, they're just playing other things.

[Bhigtimm]

Look, it really boils down to each persons cost/benefit analysis. Does this game deliver what you want for x amount dollars. That really is the heart of the matter. Do you the consumer feel like you are getting your moneys worth. My own personal gripe extends beyond endgame and is more general in nature. Simply put, all content shipped at launch should be functional, and in the current market should be polished. Now in this case, the problem is more noticeable the deeper into the release content that you get. But simply put yes, if the game shipped with 2 operations then those operations should be functional. I don't say enjoyable because ultimately that is a subjective standard. EA/BW can't make a game and guarantee that you will enjoy it. What they can do is not ship content until it is fully functional, bug-free and well-tested.

 

I understand that the software industry standard, or so the legions of super leet programmers on these board say, is to ship bad product and fix it later. I understand that everyone does it. That doesn't make it desirable or even acceptable. However, at the end of the day whether something is acceptable doesn't matter, it only matter that it is profitable. So to my thinking the only way to make the point that it is not acceptable is for those people, like me, who aren't happy to stop giving EA/BW money. If everyone who is unhappy stops giving them money, then maybe it will be enough of a ripple that the next developer notices and maybe the next game will of high quality.

 

For me at least, this is not about the amount of content, its about the core gameplay and mechanics that the content sits on top of.

 

If you are happy with the game, I wish you all the best. if you are unhappy, I can only say tell the developer in the only way that they will listen/care, and that is with your pocketbook.

[Gestas]

People who pretend that two opposing arguments are equal in an effort to appear nonpartisan are annoying.

[Gestas]

It really comes down to this.

 

A) If they don't fix raids/dungeons before the free month is up, a lot of level 50s (which wasn't a hard level to get to since lots of people had christmas/holiday vacations) will end up quitting.

 

Good.

 

SWTOR would be better off in the long run.

[Dezerian]

Good.

 

SWTOR would be better off in the long run.

 

Not really, the amount of money they need to keep up the voice acting for everything (unless they cut the voice acting some) will mean they need as many subs as possible.

[Natsola]

Good.

 

SWTOR would be better off in the long run.

 

As a playerbase. Not financially though.

 

I think it'll be interesting to come back to these threads in 6 months, and see how far the game's progressed.

[YourFutureEx]

I think most of you people need to look up the term "END GAME". This game just came out and you mean to tell me you've leveled all the toons in the game, all you can, with th every best gear, with every story line possible? No way, I call BS on this. For someone to complain about this is just stupid IMO. Like WoW (sorry for the analogy, but it fits) there will really never be any END GAME, well, Pandas really ended it for me, but that wasn't the definition of 'end game'. SWTOR is a huge undertaking and what you people are saying is that it wasn't enough? Really? Maybe you should step back and see what you just ran through in less than three weeks. This game is huge, and I know you haven't done everything possible, it's just your A.D.D. kicking in and the fact that you need to complain about SOMETHING.

[artilleryshell]

Good.

 

SWTOR would be better off in the long run.

 

This thread is about a rational debate, not insults. Please leave

 

I stated my position clearly at the beginning of the thread. I in no way intend to appear non-partisan. I intend to appear respectful and grown up.

 

I'll admit, my motivation for posting this thread was more to try to give an example of how to defend the game without insulting people and being generally disrespectful, however, i did want to get my position out there, and my position is basically Its worth it to me. That means little in the great scheme of things, but this is why *I* put up with the bugs i've experianced and don't get terribly angry reading about the bugs i hear about in endgame.

 

They are unfortunate, and to some degree inexcusable, however, that ambitious rpg thing is a really big deal to me.

Edited January 8, 2012 by artilleryshell

[Dezerian]

I think most of you people need to look up the term "END GAME". This game just came out and you mean to tell me you've leveled all the toons in the game, all you can, with th every best gear, with every story line possible? No way, I call BS on this. For someone to complain about this is just stupid IMO. Like WoW (sorry for the analogy, but it fits) there will really never be any END GAME, well, Pandas really ended it for me, but that wasn't the definition of 'end game'. SWTOR is a huge undertaking and what you people are saying is that it wasn't enough? Really? Maybe you should step back and see what you just ran through in less than three weeks. This game is huge, and I know you haven't done everything possible, it's just your A.D.D. kicking in and the fact that you need to complain about SOMETHING.

 

Maybe some people like focusing on one character and leveling alts isn't very enjoyable for them? Lots of people are like this.

[Raurth]

Good.

 

SWTOR would be better off in the long run.

 

Yup! SWTOR will be better off with less subscriptions!

 

Stroke of genius!

[BobTheTeepo]

Look, it really boils down to each persons cost/benefit analysis. Does this game deliver what you want for x amount dollars. That really is the heart of the matter. Do you the consumer feel like you are getting your moneys worth. My own personal gripe extends beyond endgame and is more general in nature. Simply put, all content shipped at launch should be functional, and in the current market should be polished. Now in this case, the problem is more noticeable the deeper into the release content that you get. But simply put yes, if the game shipped with 2 operations then those operations should be functional. I don't say enjoyable because ultimately that is a subjective standard. EA/BW can't make a game and guarantee that you will enjoy it. What they can do is not ship content until it is fully functional, bug-free and well-tested.

 

I understand that the software industry standard, or so the legions of super leet programmers on these board say, is to ship bad product and fix it later. I understand that everyone does it. That doesn't make it desirable or even acceptable. However, at the end of the day whether something is acceptable doesn't matter, it only matter that it is profitable. So to my thinking the only way to make the point that it is not acceptable is for those people, like me, who aren't happy to stop giving EA/BW money. If everyone who is unhappy stops giving them money, then maybe it will be enough of a ripple that the next developer notices and maybe the next game will of high quality.

 

For me at least, this is not about the amount of content, its about the core gameplay and mechanics that the content sits on top of.

 

If you are happy with the game, I wish you all the best. if you are unhappy, I can only say tell the developer in the only way that they will listen/care, and that is with your pocketbook.

 

No MMO feels polished when it's first released is the problem here. Coming into an MMO that's new, you should expect a load of glitched, and an incomplete feel to the overall game. A new MMO is -- for all intents and purposes -- a game in open beta.

 

People may not like it that way, but by shipping something that has glitched, they get a LOT more people reporting that glitch and helping them resolve the area. If they simply withhold the content and have a group of people test it, they may not even know of some bugs. It truly takes a large scale test to see if any given piece of content is bug free, they can't anticipate every problem. People have to experience these problems, that's what in the end lets the company know what they need to fix. We may not LIKE it, but not only is it the way the industry works, but it's also the most efficient way of fixing the problem.

 

But I can see what you're saying, it is very annoying to be sure. I just think that in the end it's worth it.

[Gestas]

Not really, the amount of money they need to keep up the voice acting for everything (unless they cut the voice acting some) will mean they need as many subs as possible.

I'm sure they'll be fine. The players who hit level 50 and who are whining and threatening to quit (not all the 50s are doing this) make up a small number. And they really are the worst kinds of people--so the SWTOR community would be much better if they did quit.

Yup! SWTOR will be better off with less subscriptions!

 

Stroke of genius!

 

Somebody isn't very bright. A MMORPG's quality (either the game itself or its community) isn't measured by its popularity.

 

I'd rather have a smaller playerbase as opposed to a slightly large playerbase that is inhabited with tards.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Gestas

[Ramurdyne]

Ask yourself that if a car company spent 4 to six years telling everyone about how awesome their upcoming model is and when it comes out and you drive it the tires fall off the engine explodes on a DAILY basis the radio doesnt work sometimes the gas tank leaks, it only reaches a top speed of 60 miles per hour. How would you feel?

 

Say you have been a loyal customer to this company for years and pre-ordered it with the deluxe package (which i didnt btw) and spent 250,000 dollars only to find out that the only special thing you get is a shiny hola dancer mounted on ur dashboard and a roadmap. Your friend that paid 79,000 for it got everything you did except the hula dancer and the road map.

 

But hey it comes with a voice GPS system that tells you were to go and it has a shiny paint job. Congrats you got a shiny, chrome talking pile of turd.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Ramurdyne

[artilleryshell]

I'm sure they'll be fine. The players who hit level 50 and who are whining and threatening to quit (not all the 50s are doing this) make up a small number. And they really are the worst kinds of people--so the SWTOR community would be much better if they did quit.

 

why insult people?

[artilleryshell]

Ask yourself that if a car company spent 4 to six years telling everyone about how awesome their upcoming model is and when it comes out and you drive it the tires fall off the engine explodes on a DAILY basis the radio doesnt work sometimes the gas tank leaks, it only reaches a top speed of 60 miles per hour. How would you feel?

 

Say you have been a loyal customer to this company for years and pre-ordered it with the deluxe package (which i didnt btw) and spent 250,000 dollars only to find out that the only special thing you get is a shiny hola dancer mounted on ur dashboard and a roadmap. Your friend that paid 79,000 for it got everything you did except the hula dancer and the road map.

 

But hey it comes with a voice GPS system that tells you were to go and it has a shiny paint job. Congrats you got a shiny, chrome talking pile of turd.

 

Interesting analogy, however, i find it fallacious. Video games are not cars. You cannot risk your safety playing a video game (unless we are talking about some kind of outlier extreme example)

[Dezerian]

I'm sure they'll be fine. The players who hit level 50 and who are whining and threatening to quit (not all the 50s are doing this) make up a small number. And they really are the worst kinds of people--so the SWTOR community would be much better if they did quit.

 

The SWTOR community is irrelevant, this game's publisher is ea, money talks, if this game doesn't fit their margins of profitability it will be axed.

[Enako]

here's what i think about this 'endcame' bullcrap :

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=114578

 

there is no 'game' in repeating the same jacked up raid for 20 times. its utter stupidity, nothing else.

[pixxpixx]

I think people need to understand a few universal truths:

 

1. This game isn't going anywhere. Bioware isn't going to pick up sticks and leave just cause a few hundred people complain about it on the forums THEY provide. People get too paranoid that Bioware take all the game bashing to heart and will chuck a 2 year old tantrum and leave.

 

2. This game is going to continue to to have sustainable subs. They stated that 500,000 is all they really need to keep profitable, and I believe this. I think Bioware knew that number was a given the moment they slapped the Star Wars Logo on the box.

 

3. People need to keep retrospective of everything. Its been mentioned a few times by other posters, but arguing with the people bashing the game isn't going to help anyone. They're venting their frustrations to the only audience who may give a damn, and thats fine, that is why these forums are here. We can't really deny them that right.

 

The best thing to do is to ignore the troll posts, nod attentively at the ones that have legitimate points and understand that people may not be having a good of a time as you might be.

 

Sorry if this seems out of the blue but I see a lot of posts from people trying to passively reaffirm themselves that they aren't wasting their time on a dying MMO. Chill, its not going anwhere.

Edited January 8, 2012 by pixxpixx

[BobTheTeepo]

Interesting analogy, however, i find it fallacious. Video games are not cars. You cannot risk your safety playing a video game (unless we are talking about some kind of outlier extreme example)

 

OP is right in this case. Cars are a necessity in this day and age, and any failure is fatal. If a game does not live up to your expectations then -- at worst -- you wasted 50-150 dollars. A bit different then dying, not being able to go to work, and wasting however many thousands of dollars the car costed.

[Bhigtimm]

No MMO feels polished when it's first released is the problem here. Coming into an MMO that's new, you should expect a load of glitched, and an incomplete feel to the overall game. A new MMO is -- for all intents and purposes -- a game in open beta.

 

People may not like it that way, but by shipping something that has glitched, they get a LOT more people reporting that glitch and helping them resolve the area. If they simply withhold the content and have a group of people test it, they may not even know of some bugs. It truly takes a large scale test to see if any given piece of content is bug free, they can't anticipate every problem. People have to experience these problems, that's what in the end lets the company know what they need to fix. We may not LIKE it, but not only is it the way the industry works, but it's also the most efficient way of fixing the problem.

 

But I can see what you're saying, it is very annoying to be sure. I just think that in the end it's worth it.

 

While it might be efficient for the industry, how does that make it ideal for the customer? I know how much my money is worth to me, and you are right I will likely never purchase anther MMO at launch. I will also likely never give EA another dollar of my money. If enough people decide to do that, then maybe next time he developer will decide to act to benefit the customer instead of acting to cash in on the xmas market.

[Gestas]

The SWTOR community is irrelevant, this game's publisher is ea, money talks, if this game doesn't fit their margins of profitability it will be axed.

 

Sorry but the kids who rushed to 50, cried about lack of end-game content, and then threatened to quit SWTOR aren't going to make or break this game.

 

But if those kids did leave, then the SWTOR community would be much better off.

[Raurth]

OP is right in this case. Cars are a necessity in this day and age, and any failure is fatal. If a game does not live up to your expectations then -- at worst -- you wasted 50-150 dollars. A bit different then dying, not being able to go to work, and wasting however many thousands of dollars the car costed.

 

So, because there's no physical danger, only a financial one, it's ok for an incomplete product to be released to market?