When and how will Juggernauts get buffed?

[Sookster]

Immortal Jugg, I put in mods that have more strength than endurance and haven't had issues in pve, but in pvp it can be challenging but at level 50 you get significantly better. If you lack patience, well, either keep going or play your other alt, if you think it gets bad on Balmorra or Tatooine, it actually gets rough going into the 40's. I played BH during beta, and I have a Merc alt, it does much better damage and can heal and a little too easy to just spam 2 or 3 attacks over and over yet I prefer Jugg, a Jugg can hold its own if you figure out an attack chain optimizing nearly every available special you have (bar ravage and pommel).

[Glocknall]

A lot of the Jugg DPS woes comes from how friendly this game is to ranged specs. Snipers cant be charged and get defensive bonuses from cover and excellent burst. Bounty Hunters get heavy armor, excellent AoE damage, excellent ranged damage, defensive cds, self heals...well they can do it all. Inquisitors, especially the sorcs are particularly tough. Their bubble, self heal, strong CC, strong ranged damage etc makes them almost the perfect PvP class.

 

DPS Jugg, especially the Vengance Juggs get no runspeed buffs, little CC, their ST damage is functional but not stellar, AoE damage is flat out awful. Rage Juggs are a little better but are solely constructed around one skill, and suffer from a lack of defensive CDs and talents.

 

Thrown into the mix ability cancelling, WZ lag, and ability delay and you see why Juggs fall behind in overall damage in most WZs.

 

A increase to the DoT component of Force Scream and Impale is called for, those are awful talents as it stands now. I would move the unchanneled Force Choke from immortal to Vengance to better CC capability and add a DoT component to Smash for Immortals to help hold AoE threat. Immortals are already bursting at the seams with CC from Force Push, Choke, Force Charge, and Backhand.

 

Increase the damage on Sweeping Slash. It's pathetic. Seriously Pathetic. Have it still cost 3 rage so it isnt endlessly spammable.

 

I wouldnt touch the ST damage of Juggs. It's probably where it needs to be, or at least within 5-10%.

 

Rage Juggs need one more dependable atttack along the lines of Obliterate. Maybe a significant reduction of CD for it.

 

Most of all we need the mechanics for melee attacks changed. I would probably see a 25k to 40k increase in PvP dps just from fixing animation lag and cancelling.

[Tengobotas]

Immortal Jugg is a massive failure. The class is fun to play but fails at everything.

 

People who say we arent broke havent had to deal with people in good gear and enrage timers yet where it becomes obvious something is wrong with threat because DPS cant do their job, beating the timers.

[Noth]

Lol. I agree with you. Im only a 16 Juggernaut, and i'm enjoying it and see some of the nice defensive stuff, ex.- Soresu form(Just awesome), Shield in offhand, lightsaber shield(forget exact name of ability), deflecting blaster shots with lightsaber, Call on the force, Heavy Armor, think i'm missing one or two. Plus I hear they start hitting their stride somewhere around 26 or so.

 

Other classes get similar things and even superior things to what you mention.

 

I've also rolled a Mercenary, and yes, the Mercenary does do more damage both to single targets and groups, and still has descent health and heavy armor, but if you know what your doing, to me, the Juggernaut can easily hold its own with it's own skill set. Out of the 4 Sith classes, on average, the Juggernaut does do the least amount of damage, but that's the way they were designed. They can still do descent damage tho.

 

THe problem is that the Merc makes content stupidly easy. Stuff has just been getting easier as I level on my Merc. On my Jugg leveling slowly became pulling teeth. There is a massive difference in power of the classes. Also, all dps spec are to be similar.

 

Tired of hearing about people complaining about the Jugg. I wouldn't call it the best class out there, but it's very viable to me. I wouldn't complain either if they bioware did give them a buff tho, cause in the hands of a skilled player, would make the Jugg almost broke. (Not that i'm a great player, just saying)

 

Is it viable? As a tank yes, as dps not so much. Been kicked from multiple hardmodes when they find out I'm a jugg. Do I do well in pvp? Yes I do. Does that mean the class is fine? No it does not.

[Jrheel]

Other classes get similar things and even superior things to what you mention.

 

Well i'll have to keep leveling i guess before i make a more fair comparison, but i do like the jugg's stuff as of right now, even compared to other classes, and i'm told they hit their strides more and more as they level

 

 

THe problem is that the Merc makes content stupidly easy. Stuff has just been getting easier as I level on my Merc. On my Jugg leveling slowly became pulling teeth. There is a massive difference in power of the classes. Also, all dps spec are to be similar.

 

I do agree with that. I noticed from the beginning that the Merc has easier content

Edited January 7, 2012 by Jrheel

[Raddpuppy]

Please, don't tease me. I cant wait for the fanbois to drop the class. The good players know how to utilize the strengths and mitigate the weaknesses of the class. If you're juggernaut for straight dps, you're probably not part of this group.

 

i rerolled jugg from my marauder because I didnt mind dropping some dps for much more armor and a shield. Now i finish fights with elites at about 80-90% health if i dont get any adds. i also use quinn.

[Donkey_Jote]

Personally, I think this class is fun, but once I finish Act I, I'm probably going to reroll for a bit. Try something new, because even though this class is fun, it is underpowered. I want to do every class eventually anyway, so I'll come back to this one when it gets a bit of a boost.

[Apokalypsis]

The class is amazing I love it and i will play it no mather what. But its a fact that we are Underpowered. We are tanks or offtanks as dps, and we should do damage, we should be able to charge to a SAGE and INSTA KILL HIM, but we dont. THen comes 2 lvl 10 operative spamming their close combat insta abilities and we are dead in 5 secs.

 

Patience, our day will come, when they realize that casters shouldnt be able to resist more than a tank, when a ranged class shouldnt do more dps than a mele class.

[Deathmark]

Well I'd say that all the complaints about this class being ridiculously underpowered isn't just a coincidence, it's due to the fact this class is severely underpowered relative to the other classes in this game.

 

You know that's true when those who claim it isn't underpowered readily and universally admit it's 'harder' to play and requires more 'skill', which is ironically admitting that the class is weaker than it's peers. If only the 'leet' players can get the class to work, then the class is broken.

 

I hope the devs quickly look at this and fix the problem, and make this class more competitive with the other classes.

[lycanicia]

im supposed to be a tank that can take damage but on the jugger id only take on one elite on its own at a time otherwise ill probably die with all my cooldowns blown whereas my trooper combat medic can take on 2 elites at a time and win with 50% health left

[Andge]

I agree; the class is broken. The screenshot from a WZ showing a lvl 36 sage doing comparable damage to a lvl 50 jug - and a lot of heals on top of it - says it all.

 

I am currently lvl 23, have been specced both Rage and Vengance. Both do zero damage compared to every other class. But the low dps is not the problem to me; ideally jugg exchanges mediocre dps for heavy armor and high HP, which should make them harder to kill thus enabling them to wear down their opponents. But this is not the case! My jugg dies almost as fast as any medium armor class. This is where the problem with this class lies IMO.

 

And don't give my the crap about passing judgement too quickly if I only have a lvl 23 jugg; to some people, leveling is just something to get out of the world. To other people, leveling is where they get the most satisfaction out of a game. Endgame content and leveling weights equally. I.e. a class that is broken til end-level is still broken.

 

Besides, the entire point of Bioware's emphasis on story is to make leveling just as much part of the game as the end-level content.

[ShadowSilverWolf]

PLEEEEAAAAASSSEEEEEEE ADD MORE CLASSES...or add to the current ones..prefferably add more classes...:(:):D:D PLZ!!!

[Apokalypsis]

I agree; the class is broken. The screenshot from a WZ showing a lvl 36 sage doing comparable damage to a lvl 50 jug - and a lot of heals on top of it - says it all.

 

I am currently lvl 23, have been specced both Rage and Vengance. Both do zero damage compared to every other class. But the low dps is not the problem to me; ideally jugg exchanges mediocre dps for heavy armor and high HP, which should make them harder to kill thus enabling them to wear down their opponents. But this is not the case! My jugg dies almost as fast as any medium armor class. This is where the problem with this class lies IMO.

 

And don't give my the crap about passing judgement too quickly if I only have a lvl 23 jugg; to some people, leveling is just something to get out of the world. To other people, leveling is where they get the most satisfaction out of a game. Endgame content and leveling weights equally. I.e. a class that is broken til end-level is still broken.

 

Besides, the entire point of Bioware's emphasis on story is to make leveling just as much part of the game as the end-level content.

 

Aye, thats a fact, we have heavy armour but we deal much less damage compared with what we take.

 

Anyway you are lvl 23, you dont have any tools to make damage YET.

[Sivn]

Compared to my BH powertech i levelled to 50 first, the Juggernaught is definately weaker.

 

Its a combination of things.

 

A lack of AoE as 90% of the mobs we face are packs and we have 1 good AoE on a 15sec cooldown and a rubbish aoe that tickles enemys (but all classes get one of these). IMO we could do with a frontal cone attack ala Shockwave from WoW warriors.

 

Lack of movement speed. Considering the lack of actual AoE skills we have i would have expected some increased movement speed to make up for that, so we can move from mob to mob quicker (force jump having a minimum range and we use it to start the attack anyway).

 

A lack of CC and stuns. We have force choke which takes us out of the combat too which isnt a good thing, but its a cool ability.

 

We have 2 abilities which are situational and restricted by effects affecting the mobs.

 

Most of the "hard" hitting abilities really dont seem to hit that hard in all honesty. Also Sunder imo needs to do more damage as a main ability.

 

Channeled attacks for a melee class = silly design UNLESS your able to move without breaking the channel.

 

Poor, uninspiring skill trees. Tiny insignificant dots as talents? Boring talents that have minimal increases at best and generally poor talents.

 

 

Towards the end of beta the devs said that Warriors/knights were next in line for a revamp but it never came.

 

IMO once the above are tweaked the Knights/Warriors will feel a whole lot better. Nothing major needs changing, just slight buffs, tweaks and changes here and there.

[Sookster]

Choke can be nonchanneled with talent (if you're immortal) and ravage you eventually take off the hotbar in the later levels, eventually channeled attacks won't be an issue anymore.

[Noth]

Choke can be nonchanneled with talent (if you're immortal) and ravage you eventually take off the hotbar in the later levels, eventually channeled attacks won't be an issue anymore.

 

Not everyone goes immortal. Please think about that then come back.

[Sookster]

Not everyone goes immortal. Please think about that then come back.

 

Hence I wrote "(if you're immortal)"

[Noth]

Hence I wrote "(if you're immortal)"

 

Hence it does not fix the issue. the issue is that our only CC even close to the 4 second 1 minute cooldown CC other classes get is a 3second CC that also CC's ourselves.

[Impastable]

Hence it does not fix the issue. the issue is that our only CC even close to the 4 second 1 minute cooldown CC other classes get is a 3second CC that also CC's ourselves.

 

It doesn't fix the issue, but it clarifies a point you made where channeled abilities can't be used while moving. The schism is the fact that you want it available for DPS specs and he pointed out that its only available for tanking. Do you see the exact point where we split the hairs?

 

Honestly I'm not entirely in shock every time I deal damage in a FP or OP, but people who group with don't seem to have any issues. Gear and tightening the skill priority is a big role.

 

I wouldn't say, "Juggarnauts are fine, just figure out how to play and quit complaining" because there are some glaring disparities between this Advanced Class and others. That said, they aren't worth completely hanging up, at least not for me, because I have a lot of fun with the versatility they have.

 

I agree with the post on the Vengeance tree and its lackluster DoTs; I see the bleeds but I see nothing that really supports them beyond the talents that you get them from.

 

Suggested changes:

 

Rampage: change out Ravage for Force Scream since it is a more integrated part of our priority system. Ravage has zero maneuverability and basically sees little use outside of weak targets past level 10.

 

Improved Sundering Assault: Should increase the damage SA does in addition to adding extra sunder. It doesn't have to be astronomical, but somewhat helpful since its used on cool down.

 

Shien Form: Should have more synergy with either the bleeds in addition to the damage buff or else do something besides JUST damage increase.

[Noth]

It doesn't fix the issue, but it clarifies a point you made where channeled abilities can't be used while moving. The schism is the fact that you want it available for DPS specs and he pointed out that its only available for tanking. Do you see the exact point where we split the hairs?

 

It was a pointless comment. One that is along the lines of "The sky is blue." And I see these statements made all the time trying to say that Jugg is ok. It just shows ignorance to the actual problem.

 

Honestly I'm not entirely in shock every time I deal damage in a FP or OP, but people who group with don't seem to have any issues. Gear and tightening the skill priority is a big role.

 

I wouldn't say, "Juggarnauts are fine, just figure out how to play and quit complaining" because there are some glaring disparities between this Advanced Class and others. That said, they aren't worth completely hanging up, at least not for me, because I have a lot of fun with the versatility they have.

 

I agree with the post on the Vengeance tree and its lackluster DoTs; I see the bleeds but I see nothing that really supports them beyond the talents that you get them from.

 

Suggested changes:

 

Rampage: change out Ravage for Force Scream since it is a more integrated part of our priority system. Ravage has zero maneuverability and basically sees little use outside of weak targets past level 10.

 

Improved Sundering Assault: Should increase the damage SA does in addition to adding extra sunder. It doesn't have to be astronomical, but somewhat helpful since its used on cool down.

 

Shien Form: Should have more synergy with either the bleeds in addition to the damage buff or else do something besides JUST damage increase.

 

In lore, Shien was designed to redirect attacks like blaster bolts back at it's attackers. Maybe an actual true to lore ability?

Edited January 8, 2012 by Noth

[Impastable]

It was a pointless comment. One that is along the lines of "The sky is blue." And I see these statements made all the time trying to say that Jugg is ok. It just shows ignorance to the actual problem.

 

In lore, Shien was designed to redirect attacks like blaster bolts back at it's attackers. Maybe an actual true to lore ability?

 

I agree, it was largely pointless but it did provide some clarity to the uninformed, which merits some value (in case there are those who have played SWTOR for so long that they cannot remember what color the sky is, perhaps).

 

As for Shien form, I know little about Saber forms apart from what they set out to do in-game, so I can't make a comment on that. I like the blaster bolt redirect idea, I feel like it would be somewhat unprecedented (if we rule out Spell Reflection from WoW since its technically not the same thing). I'd like to see what BioWare does with it, if at all, since forms are a core part of the Class as a whole.

 

Edit: unrelated, but our matching avatars are throwing me off.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Impastable

[Naselus]

Hence it does not fix the issue. the issue is that our only CC even close to the 4 second 1 minute cooldown CC other classes get is a 3second CC that also CC's ourselves.

 

Actually, the issue he was responding too was the presence of channelled attacks on a melee class, as was fairly obvious from his initial post... YOU were the one who decided the issue he was answering was lack of stuns. Which means his pointless comment wasn't pointless in the context he actually said it in, while your comment in response to it was pointless - doubly so as he'd already specified 'if your immortal'.

 

And since Immortal has two non-channelled stuns, one of which is a 4-second 45sec c/d and the other is a 3second, 1 minute c/d, your statement that our 'only CC even close' is patently false. And this is without mentioning Intimidating Roar's AOE 6-second stun.

 

Yes, we have to spec for the 4sec/45cd stun when no-one else has to, which is dumb - particularly putting both our main stun skills right next to each other on the tree, so at level 29 you have no stuns and by level 31 you have 2. I personally think Choke should come available at about level 14 and Grip should be a rank 2 or 3 talent, so it's cross-specable. But 'having to spec for it' does not mean 'does not exist at all', just as 'responding to a different part of the post above to the one you would like to talk about' does not mean 'does not understand the issue and thus makes only pointless comments'.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Naselus

[Noth]

Actually, the issue he was responding too was the presence of channelled attacks on a melee class, as was fairly obvious from his initial post... YOU were the one who decided the issue he was answering was lack of stuns. Which means his pointless comment wasn't pointless in the context he actually said it in, while your comment in response to it was pointless - doubly so as he'd already specified 'if your immortal'.

 

And since Immortal has two non-channelled stuns, one of which is a 4-second 45sec c/d and the other is a 3second, 1 minute c/d, your statement that our 'only CC even close' is patently false. And this is without mentioning Intimidating Roar's AOE 6-second stun.

 

Yes, we have to spec for the 4sec/45cd stun when no-one else has to, which is dumb - particularly putting both our main stun skills right next to each other on the tree, so at level 29 you have no stuns and by level 31 you have 2. I personally think Choke should come available at about level 14 and Grip should be a rank 2 or 3 talent, so it's cross-specable. But 'having to spec for it' does not mean 'does not exist at all', just as 'responding to a different part of the post above to the one you would like to talk about' does not mean 'does not understand the issue and thus makes only pointless comments'.

 

Those are immortals stuns. All other classes get that 4 second stun baseline. Roars stun is weak as well. Snipers and agent get one that is ranged and lasts 8 seconds. When talking about the whole class you cannot say it's ok because one tree has it when all trees actually need it.

 

That is the point I'm making. Nothing about the statement that immortal can spec to have non channeled force choke even touches on the issue at hand. The class still has a channeled stun which is extremely stupid on a melee.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Noth

[Lymain]

I'm normally Immortal spec'd and love it, but after trying Vengeance for a day, I have to agree that it is a little lacking. The main thing I missed in PvP was a stun or two. It's hard to compete with specs that can stun you for 6-8 seconds when all you have to retaliate with is channeled force choke.

[Dalium]

Honestly I think reducing or removing the CD's on a few of our moves would help the class tremendously. From an Immortal POV:

 

Removing the CD from Sundering Assault would make it our default rage generator and remove assault from our bars all together (less ability bloat). Make Improved Sundering Assault do this instead of stacking 2 sunder armors. Win/win for all Jug specs.

 

Change Backhand from 1 min to 12-15 seconds and drop the stun since it doesn't work on champion/boss level mobs anyway.

 

Crushing Blow should replace Vicious Strike as our rage dump (again, less ability bloat). Ie... no Cd but rage limited. Change Sweeping Fury to reflect this also.

 

Sweeping Strikes... increase the range and make its effective arc 270 degrees so it's a little easier to use. It's supposed to keep healers (not dps) from pulling agro but most pulls are so spread out it's nigh useless.

 

Remove the conditions on Pommel Strike and Savage Kick. I don't even care about the CD's but having such a small window to use these abilities even when they are usable is so frustrating. Heck, I don't think I've ever seen Savage Kick even light up on my bar to say it was usable.

 

Make Ravage uninterpretable or something. I hate hitting it only to be knocked on my *** after the first hit goes off.

 

Also, swap Unstoppable with Dreadnaught. It seems like every fight where I charge in I'm immediately choked, stunned, knocked on my *** or knocked 15 feet back and slowed (or all of the above) in the first 10 seconds.