Why the grind has got to go in MMO's

[VicSkimmr]

is this a thread complaining about the grind of bonus quests? :facepalm:

[themistocles]

You want to know what grind is? Try FFXI getting to max level, that was non stop xp parties the entire game. That was a Grind.

[Damon_Mott]

There is a grind in SWTOR. There is one in WoW. There was one to grind holos to get the uber jedi armor in SWG, although to grind a regular combat character took less than 2 days.

 

Developers are under the impression there is an unwritten rule to grind levels. If they had interesting quests like some single player games then the grind would disappear. For example in Fallout New Vegas it took about 50 hours (including side quests) to reach max level 20.

 

Having to kill Benny's body guards to get to Benny is one thing, but having to kill 20 rakghouls just to gain X amount of experience because some developer doesn't want to use his brain is another.

 

What game are you playing? I can go from level 1-50 in under a week if I chose to and that's with "casual" play (2-3 hours/day).

[LizardSF]

I'm 47 and have been gaming since paddle board pong hooked up to the TV via RF converter. If you're hinting at ADD, forgetaboutit. I'm just about 35 years ahead of the rest of you when it comes to having reached my fill of leveling as a way to waste my time to keep a subscription going.

 

46, here. Only my rich friends had Pong.

 

Leveling, to me, isn't wasting my time. Leveling is why I play at all.. The journey is the reward, and SWTOR has the most interesting journey I've found in a while. The worst part of it is that the game keeps saying "Hurry up! Move along! Times-a-wastin'!" I'd be happy if we got about 75% or even 50% of the current XP rewards.

 

The D&D 4e game I'm running began around August 2010, and should be ending in about a month, the characters having gone from first to twentieth level playing once a week. That's the model I want MMOs to take -- long, slow, journeys filled with variety and interesting events.

 

Seriously, if what you want is to start at max level and PVP... you really shouldn't be playing MMOs. You should be playing battlefield/arena type games where you don't have a character, just a ranking on a leaderboard somewhere. MMOs are about the world, not about running the same dungeon over and over again. THAT is the definition of grind, don't you think?

[Lazorous]

I don't see him saying anywhere that he thinks leveling is too slow, just too repetitive.

 

However, I do have to say that the grind in this game feels less like a grind than in any previous MMO. I think SWtOR makes significant advancements in integrating interesting stories with quests and leveling, even if they did not embark on a revolutionary track that some were expecting.

 

He said this line, "For example in Fallout New Vegas it took about 50 hours (including side quests) to reach max level 20."

 

X amount of time to reach Max level, implies some disappointment in speed to reach max level, by comparison.

[Mazikeen]

There is a grind in SWTOR. There is one in WoW. There was one to grind holos to get the uber jedi armor in SWG, although to grind a regular combat character took less than 2 days.

 

Developers are under the impression there is an unwritten rule to grind levels. If they had interesting quests like some single player games then the grind would disappear. For example in Fallout New Vegas it took about 50 hours (including side quests) to reach max level 20.

 

Having to kill Benny's body guards to get to Benny is one thing, but having to kill 20 rakghouls just to gain X amount of experience because some developer doesn't want to use his brain is another.

 

Got a better idea to keep people interested? A good idea with reasonable explanations on how to implement it, not some half-brained concept that would never really work

[LizardSF]

True but you gotta do the bonuses!! lol Also the bonus quests dont ask to kill too much. typically 10-30 mobs which is not bad at all compared to grinding quests out in MMO land.

 

I find this:

 

Accept Quest: Kill Some Guy

While on my way to kill some guy, I blow up some of Some Guy's guards, and find out I get a bonus if I kill 30 of them. Hell, I was going to kill more than that just to get to Some Guy!

 

Preferable to this:

Accept Quest: Kill Some Guy's Guards.

Return to quest-giver.

Get Quest: Kill Some Guy.

[imtrick]

Dude, if they removed grinds from MMOs, there wouldn't be any game left. The grind *is* the game. That's true of almost every MMO ever made. You gring for experience, grind to level trade skills, grind for gear... it's all grind.

 

Learn to love it, or don't play MMORPGs. There's not really another choice.

Edited January 6, 2012 by imtrick

[Calidge]

My $0.02: the amount of grind is fine.

[Keldrick]

True but you gotta do the bonuses!! lol Also the bonus quests dont ask to kill too much. typically 10-30 mobs which is not bad at all compared to grinding quests out in MMO land.

 

You don't HAVE to do the bonues. You can simply turn in the main quest and not get the extra XP and usually 3 commendations.

[DarrkLore]

Grind? This game!? I'm sorry we must be playing different games...

 

SWTOR doesn't feel like a grind because it DOES include interesting stories for quests like you would normally see in a single player game. Or have you been spacebaring through it all? If you wanna see a grind you should've tried playing FFXI a few years ago lol

Edited January 6, 2012 by DarrkLore

[Deyjarl]

Here's the problem. No grind at the end, what else would there be to do, and not just this game but any game? Content takes time and a lot of resources to make.

 

 

What do you suggest to replace it to occupy players at level caps?

 

Keep in mind this is a broad audience game, not everyone wants to PvP, or PvE.

[Skuldar]

He said this line, "For example in Fallout New Vegas it took about 50 hours (including side quests) to reach max level 20."

 

X amount of time to reach Max level, implies some disappointment in speed to reach max level, by comparison.

 

I guess we read that line differently. I took it as meaning that the 50 hours it took to reach the cap in New Vegas did not feel like a grind despite being dozens of hours, as opposed to meaning that it didn't feel like a grind because it was only 50 hours. My interpretation fits better with his overall point while your spin introduces an additional point not otherwise in evidence in his post.

[Deyjarl]

What game are you playing? I can go from level 1-50 in under a week if I chose to and that's with "casual" play (2-3 hours/day).

 

For SWTOR? I call bs. Especially not at 2-3 hours a night.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Deyjarl

[MadJerry]

Having to kill Benny's body guards to get to Benny is one thing, but having to kill 20 rakghouls just to gain X amount of experience because some developer doesn't want to use his brain is another.

 

This is exactly right. This whole leveling nonsense, rigid class mechanics, and grinding has to go. It made sense when you are imagining a scene in your head and keeping track on paper around the dining room table by rolling dice and such, but the digital medium is much more powerful than this.

 

There is no reason for developers to keep using the old pen and paper mechanics with a meaningless graphical overlay, depending on whether its for the fantasy or the sci-fi crowd, just to sell an old concept.

[Deyjarl]

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/

 

No thanks to build wars 2.

 

Company has no clue about class balance, and each week its a new nerf and people looking for what OP'd spec to abuse next.

 

 

And you want a mess of a game economy. No real support staff since its a F2P game? Go right ahead. You'll be regularly playing along side gold farmers (more so than most other games), and see prices way out of control, and the company won't do a thing.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Deyjarl

[Red_Cruiser]

Are you honestly saying that SWTOR lacks in interesting quests, that you'd normally see in a SP game?

 

Yeah, I would say that.

[MadJerry]

I'm one of the dudes who wishes there was an XP Off button so I could stay at the same level as my friends because doing a match or two of PvP or some space missions rapidly puts me out of their level range.

 

You want faster leveling?

 

ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho

 

How about NO leveling?

[imaslapu]

Please enlighted all of us what you actually grind in this game?

 

Meh, off the top of my head, one quest in Nar Shaddaa - run all the way through agro mobs to get to an instance, then have to grind back if my qt is down - or just die to get back to my bind fast. All of that stupid time wasting just to find that after the turn in back at the quest giver, I need to run right back to where I was or very near it to continue on.

 

Grind-o-rama. So unnecessary and when you have played enough MMO's to see it for the time sink it is, it's just annoying.

[Hyperion]

There is a grind in SWTOR. There is one in WoW. There was one to grind holos to get the uber jedi armor in SWG, although to grind a regular combat character took less than 2 days.

 

Developers are under the impression there is an unwritten rule to grind levels. If they had interesting quests like some single player games then the grind would disappear. For example in Fallout New Vegas it took about 50 hours (including side quests) to reach max level 20.

 

Having to kill Benny's body guards to get to Benny is one thing, but having to kill 20 rakghouls just to gain X amount of experience because some developer doesn't want to use his brain is another.

 

It's a matter of opinion and play style really. For every person who thinks its a grind there is someone like me who enjoys the journey, and frankly wish it was longer and more challenging.

 

To answer your question though, its a time sink. The hope is you will pay/play long enough to reach the cap. It it extends the life of the game by delaying how long it takes to reach "end game". It's even more vital for a new game because it allows for a little bit of time for the company to work on new content.

[Bezit]

No thanks to build wars 2.

 

Company has no clue about class balance, and each week its a new nerf and people looking for what OP'd spec to abuse next.

 

 

And you want a mess of a game economy. No real support staff since its a F2P game? Go right ahead. You'll be regularly playing along side gold farmers (more so than most other games), and see prices way out of control, and the company won't do a thing.

 

The company has no clue about class balance...

 

SWTOR has level 50s playing against level 11s.

 

GW2, everyone has the same gear/level/number of traits, everything... I think I'll go with GW2.

[imtrick]

How about NO leveling?

 

No thanks. A lot of us really enjoy that part of the game. I'd hazard a guess that it may even be most of us.

[Thradar]

Grinds (veiled or not) will never go away.

 

Grind (call it whatever name you'd like) = time = $$$$

Edited January 6, 2012 by Thradar

[Mazikeen]

The company has no clue about class balance...

 

SWTOR has level 50s playing against level 11s.

 

GW2, everyone has the same gear/level/number of traits, everything... I think I'll go with GW2.

 

Yes, so everyone can be exactly the same with no advancement whatsoever. Tons of fun

 

Especially when you see people constantly screaming in MMOs about how they hit 'the wall' and have no more gear/levels/etc left to see as 'new'

 

There's a reason MMO developers have to constantly release content updates

[LizardSF]

Meh, off the top of my head, one quest in Nar Shaddaa - run all the way through agro mobs to get to an instance, then have to grind back if my qt is down - or just die to get back to my bind fast. All of that stupid time wasting just to find that after the turn in back at the quest giver, I need to run right back to where I was or very near it to continue on.

 

Grind-o-rama. So unnecessary and when you have played enough MMO's to see it for the time sink it is, it's just annoying.

 

I'm just not getting your point.

 

The actual action of fighting the mobs, looting the corpses, etc, IS the gameplay. It's what you're paying for. It only become boring if there's no sense of eventual progress or change.

 

It seems to me that you're saying, in effect "Baseball should start in the ninth inning. Also, why do we have to go through first and second base just to get to third? We should just go to third and then run home."

 

In other words, it seems you don't want to actually play the genre of game you're playing; you want to play some other kind of game, and you don't derive any pleasure from the gameplay mechanics and conventions of this genre. There's no point in my trying to argue that you're "wrong" about what you do and don't like; it's all a matter of personal taste. I can argue, though, that if you don't like doing quests and fighting monsters, then, playing in a genre of game which is defined by doing quests and fighting monsters is unlikely to satisfy you. To reuse the baseball analogy, it's like saying, "I really love garlic fries, and they serve garlic fries at the baseball stadium, so I go to the baseball games to eat garlic fries. Therefore, baseball ought to be changed to be a whole lot shorter, so the game is done by the time I've eaten my fries and I can go home."

 

Or, keeping up with the sports analogies, which I admit to being poor at, since I hate sports:"I like driving in the golf cart to the clubhouse and getting drunk. Lets get rid of the clubs and the holes, though. They're unnecessary time sinks that just slow you down while you're driving to the clubhouse on the cart. The whole point of golf is to get to the clubhouse and get drunk, so it's time we abandoned the other features. They're unnecessary."