This is scary, but explains so much

[ptwonline]

Hello,

 

You seem to have edited out a whole part in the middle to emphasize your point... falsely.

 

"Soon the deal was done – soon meaning after months of painful negotiations and many weeks of meetings with teams of engineers who examined every line of our source code and interrogated our engineers."

 

I suppose your position would not be enhanced by quoting the writeup linearly. You can only make your point by editing out unfortunate truths.

 

 

I agree. Cherry-picking: it's not just for fruit growers!

[Argolith]

Here is a simple question for you to answer (please dont avoid it, answer it directly if you can)

 

Why when swtor has been one of the most expensive mmos created and taken ages, is the engine they use way more inferior to games that have been made with less money and in less time?

 

 

As so many of you fanboys are mmo developers and know it all, please someone answer me that simple question.

 

 

Could you cite examples of MMO's that took less time and less money to develop that created their own Engines and were commercially successful?

 

I do not believe that they exist.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Argolith

[sdream]

Could you cite examples of MMO's that took less time and less money to develop that created their own Engines and were commercially successful?

 

I do not believe that they exist.

 

World of Warcraft.

[Adythiel]

 

Why when swtor has been one of the most expensive mmos created and taken ages, is the engine they use way more inferior to games that have been made with less money and in less time?

 

 

Do you have any idea how long it takes to write hundreds of thousands of lines of text and then how much it costs to pay voice actors to record said lines of text to be added to the game? Much less the amount of time it takes in the studio with all of those voice actors?

 

Story in most MMOs is absent or barely there. Each story takes time. And then you have to add in more time for the variations of said story. Seriously, hit escape sometime after you've made a major choice and pick a different one and see how the actual responses change. Those all had to be written out and then recorded. Takes time, takes money.

[Argolith]

World of Warcraft.

 

According to:

 

http://www.gamespot.com/news/ects-2001-world-of-warcraft-announced-2810134

 

Blizzard initially used an engine that they had developed for a previous game. That does not count as creating a unique engine for the game.

 

 

AKA they took an existing engine and modified it to fit their needs.

 

 

Edit: I R GOOD GRAMMARZ

Edited January 6, 2012 by Argolith

[Meleoffs]

World of Warcraft.

 

The engine was already there when they started World of Warcraft. It's the exact same engine they used for Warcraft 3 - but modified. As all engines are. They didn't create their engine from scratch

 

 

World of Warcraft was first announced by Blizzard at the ECTS trade show in September 2001.[48] Development of the game took roughly 4–5 years, and included extensive testing. The 3-D graphics in WoW use elements of the proprietary graphics engine originally used in Warcraft III.

[Jarlathe]

Or...if you read a bit more into why Hero's Journey was never finished, was because they had so many companies interested in licensing the engine that they just didn't have the resources to dedicate into coding a new game.

 

Not all companies are like Microsoft, you have to dedicate your best staff to the right places, and having your coders working on a game that demonstrates your engine instead of maybe working with the people who want to buy your engine is foolish.

 

I'm just curious. what other games have licensed the Hero Engine?

[iResist]

/facepalm

 

 

1) Bioware has a HUGE team programming.

 

2) The engine programmers went through every line of code with the Heroengine programmers.

 

3) Bioware's engine team had 6 years to work on it.

 

 

OP just got stuffed.

 

 

Almost ALL the bugs that are in the game ARE NOT ENGINE BUGS.

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

oh noes, they bought an engine 6 years ago that wasn't finished yet.

[iResist]

oh noes, they bought an engine 6 years ago that wasn't finished yet.

 

Yeah it's not like Bioware didn't have a team of engine programmers working on it for years.....

 

 

Besides most bugs in the game are NOT engine related.

[SarahR]

Could you cite examples of MMO's that took less time and less money to develop that created their own Engines and were commercially successful?

 

I do not believe that they exist.

 

Trion uses a heavily modified gamebryo engine, so modified that it is considered by analysts to be an in-house engine built from the ground up. They modified everything, including framework and the source itself.

 

It is commercially successful. They are turning a profit. They spent 70 million, and slightly less time.

 

EQ, UO, WoW are all examples of this as well. They created their own engine from a base product, but it is modified so much that it is considered built from the ground up.

[BluePlatypus]

C'mon guys, give it a rest. We all know HeroEngine is a tried and proven MMO engine. There's SWTOR*, Faxion (did not finish), and Hero's Journey (did not finish, may have never existed at all).

 

So enough with the hate. This is a proven engine.

 

 

 

 

* it could be argued this game wasnt finished either.

[Nautius]

“I need this,” said Gordon. “I am about to start a special project and these tools will let us build and prototype fast and get something running in a hurry.” Gordon is not an excitable guy by nature but this had his adrenaline flowing. “This is just what I need! I want to license your engine.”

 

“It’s not productized yet,” we told Gordon. “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security. And there are very few comments and very little documentation.”

 

He didn’t care. “We are going to have tons of engineers. We can finish it ourselves. We’re going to want to modify your source code for our special project anyway.”

 

We were concerned over their making major changes to our engine, but we loved the size of the check that came with the deal.

 

 

from http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/

 

So that's why the game feels horribly broken and rough in so many places. What a terrible decision to use an unfinished engine someone else made for your MMO.

 

This is a non-post.

 

They were expressing their excitement that their engine was going to be used prior to any development even being started.

 

You're claiming that today's issues are based on an engine that was "undeveloped" at that time. Not now, but back then.

 

You're drawing conclusion based on your own misinformation.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Nautius

[Spynnal]

Could you cite examples of MMO's that took less time and less money to develop that created their own Engines and were commercially successful?

 

I do not believe that they exist.

 

Many gaming companies use 3rd party engines, MMO's included.

 

Dark Age of Camelot - Gamebryo engine

 

Lineage 2 - Unreal Engine

 

Some popular games, outside of MMO's

 

GTA - Renderware

 

Morrowind - Gamebryo

 

And lately, there is a ton of "middleware" being used in game creation.

 

Elder Scrolls used SpeedTree for many environmental effects.

 

Civ 5 used ForkParticle in their game.

 

Havok is an example of a popular middleware application.

[GraunKrynn]

HA HA HA

 

Lets wait for the fanboys to try and defend this its hillarious. For once though, the fanboys on the forums are a minority and not a majority.

 

"A year or so later, it became clear to us that BioWare was building a Star Wars MMO. We had to keep the secret for another couple of years but it was incredibly exciting. If you watch some of the videos of BioWare developing SW:TOR, you can see HeroEngine and its unique tools and process being used by the massive team on this incredible project.

 

Our role began and ended long ago, in a company far far away, but we’re still excited over the part we have played in helping BioWare (now part of EA, of course) bring its vision to life."

 

Ok so they're using a totally new engine. The engine's creator is excited about being a part of it. What's to defend?

[Boundd]

“I need this,” said Gordon. “I am about to start a special project and these tools will let us build and prototype fast and get something running in a hurry.” Gordon is not an excitable guy by nature but this had his adrenaline flowing. “This is just what I need! I want to license your engine.”

 

“It’s not productized yet,” we told Gordon. “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security. And there are very few comments and very little documentation.”

 

He didn’t care. “We are going to have tons of engineers. We can finish it ourselves. We’re going to want to modify your source code for our special project anyway.”

 

We were concerned over their making major changes to our engine, but we loved the size of the check that came with the deal.

 

 

from http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/

 

So that's why the game feels horribly broken and rough in so many places. What a terrible decision to use an unfinished engine someone else made for your MMO.

 

Cheque*

 

Registered dec 2011, check, no avatar, check, threads only purpose to troll. Confirmed.

[sdream]

According to:

 

http://www.gamespot.com/news/ects-2001-world-of-warcraft-announced-2810134

 

Blizzard initially used an engine that they had developed for a previous game. That does not count as creating a unique engine for the game.

 

 

AKA they took an existing engine and modified it to fit their needs.

 

 

Edit: I R GOOD GRAMMARZ

 

Yes, I am aware they used the same codebase for Warcraft 3. However, my example is still valid. It is in-house developed engine and it's not 3rd party.

[Argolith]

Trion uses a heavily modified gamebryo engine, so modified that it is considered by analysts to be an in-house engine built from the ground up. They modified everything, including framework and the source itself.

 

It is commercially successful. They are turning a profit. They spent 70 million, and slightly less time.

 

EQ, UO, WoW are all examples of this as well. They created their own engine from a base product, but it is modified so much that it is considered built from the ground up.

 

 

Ultima online was 2D and did not use a graphics engine as we know it today. However, it used a considerable amount of material from Ultima VIII.

 

Everquest did build it's own, but considering it was the first 3D MMORPG ever, I kinda have to say that this is not the norm.

 

WOW, modified the WC3 engine to fit there needs. So they created their own, but not specifically for WOW.

[Argolith]

Yes, I am aware they used the same codebase for Warcraft 3. However, my example is still valid. It is in-house developed engine and it's not 3rd party.

 

I can imagine that you've never worked in a large scale development studio that runs multiple departments.

 

You don't just "Share" resources from one department to another, If the WOW department wants to use the WC3 engine, they have to "BUY" the engine from the WC3 department.

 

Granted, the "BUY" is on paper only, but you need to accurately assess the total development cost of a product, and if you're taking software from another department without paying for it (Someone paid for it originally), you do not have an accurate cost assessment.

[Argolith]

Many gaming companies use 3rd party engines, MMO's included.

 

Dark Age of Camelot - Gamebryo engine

 

Lineage 2 - Unreal Engine

 

Some popular games, outside of MMO's

 

GTA - Renderware

 

Morrowind - Gamebryo

 

And lately, there is a ton of "middleware" being used in game creation.

 

Elder Scrolls used SpeedTree for many environmental effects.

 

Civ 5 used ForkParticle in their game.

 

Havok is an example of a popular middleware application.

 

 

That is exactly what I'm trying to say, a vast majority of games these days outsource their engine development, and that isn't a bad thing.

 

Just trying to make people realize that creating your OWN engine is an exception to the norm, not the norm itself.

[LogicalPremise]

Why do 1000's of people with top end machines suffer fps so low they cant play?

 

Why do hundreds of thousands of people with top end, middle end, and low end machines play the game just fine?

 

why do people suffer from error 9000 all the time when they have no connection probelms in other games?

 

Why do I have connection problems with STO and Warhammer and none here?

 

Funny how my last game RIFT, is more graphic intesive than this, i was able to run 2 accounts at the same time on max settings on just this machine and have suffer no fps loss (even times using both accoutns in raids, trust me this eats up games and asks for more)

 

Funny how I could never get RIFT to run for crap, it was a complete lagfest that would crash to desktop at least twice a gaming session. Yet I have good FPS in STO , Aion, Warhammer, Champions and SWTOR.

 

But surely, its my machine though, it could never be anything wrong with the game in anyway, they are so perfect as you dont have any problems.

 

When 95% of the people have no issues, and 5% have widely disparate issues, your problem is probably in the 5%.

[BrigOrion]

"Not only was Gordon a solid guy but BioWare was (and still is!) at the very top tier of game developers.."

 

Was, not 'still is'.

[Terko_Koslah]

When someone needs and does something in a hurry, that's never good. Edited January 6, 2012 by Terko_Koslah

[flunkorg]

It says they would have to re-write the source code you fool. It's basically a new engine and there is nothing wrong with it. Just because you are currently experiencing problems with performance, doesn't mean everyone is.

 

+1 to this

[Casmaran]

All I have to say.. im running this game on a laptop, not a gaming laptop but a mid-range laptop. With the settings on low, this game runs good enough to enjoy.

 

Granted I would like to see more customization on the graphics setting, I know what and where I can tweak my setting to get the best visuals out of this game, but the settings are not there.

 

The engine runs great, zone transitions are fast, BUT loading screens can be agonizingly slow... really think they should have split the .tor files into smaller chunks to reduce seek and load times.

 

Some things still need tweaking... PvP Idle timers don't take into effect the amount of time loading into a zone.. while im still waiting for Hutt ball to load in the middle of a match the timer is running , causing me to get kicked almost right away.

 

I still get a few graphic glitches, and one of my bounty hunter skill animations continue to play after the death of a NPC, but it may just be on my end.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Casmaran