commendation vendors ruin economy/crafting

[witiwap]

All crafters really need to be useful is:

 

1. Some sort of self-buff item that's BOP to self and companions (because companions are only for solo play anyway.) Something that's a definite increase, but not game breaking; such as +50 to a single stat placed on your focus/shield or some other item that doesn't generally have mods available to it.

 

2. The cost of sending companions to gather materials needs to be reduced. As an artificer at lfl 23, it costs me an average of 1000c per green item. To get a blue item (after the REs to get the recipe and the mat return for this, as well as the mats for the blue itsself) it usually ends up being about 4x that much. This means that even ignoring the galactic market, the items are really expensive for us to make and we are forced to level one or two supporting gathering professions (though this is included in the cost of the crafting.) We don't even have the option to just buy off the market because there are a few materials we need that are in such high demand they can't even be found on the market such as Nextor crystals.

 

 

The time limitations are enough to bottleneck the speed at which we can grind up the professions. We can't even break even on our greens because vendors will sell the same quality items at a lower price than it costs us, even without the GTN.

[Rotny]

I agree. Not having mods and such be so readily available via commendations would make crafting more worthwhile and fun since there would be a demand for player crafted ones.

[Caelrie]

i am not proclaiming to be an expert of any sorts on economy/mmo economy, but in my opinion, the BIGGEST problem in swtor right now is the commedation vendors making crafting skills insignificant. player characters should not be able to keep their gear up to date (especially acquiring orange gear!!!) using commendations vendors, but instead should be done through spending credits for peoples crafts at the GTN. the trickle down effect that commendation vendors have on weakening the economy is really effecting the gameplay for alot of people in a very negative way.

This is Star Wars. I'm an adventurer, not a consumer. I don't want to depend on you to advance.

[OsarionRDM]

This is Star Wars. I'm an adventurer, not a consumer. I don't want to depend on you to advance.

 

Adventurers in an MMO rely on each other by definition. This isn't a single player game, no matter how much you wish to ignore the online aspect of it. It being Star Wars is irrelevant to this point.

[Caelrie]

I agree. Not having mods and such be so readily available via commendations would make crafting more worthwhile and fun since there would be a demand for player crafted ones.

 

More fun for who? It wouldn't be more fun for the people who need the mods.

[Caelrie]

Adventurers in an MMO rely on each other by definition. This isn't a single player game, no matter how much you wish to ignore the online aspect of it. It being Star Wars is irrelevant to this point.

 

So you'd be ok with needing to pay me before you could talk to your trainer? Of course not. Your interdependency argument has limits and you know it. You can't use it to justify adding any sort of dependency you want.

 

I currently have the option to quest/PVP/vendor for my gear OR I could buy it from you. It's fine. It's perfect. Options are great! You don't need to be the only source of gear for me. This is a game, not a job. I want to adventure for what gear I can, not go out and farm credits so I can give them to you as my only option to gear up.

 

You're using a selfish argument. Stop trying to lobby the government (Bioware) to MAKE me buy from you, and instead be a merchant like you're supposed to be. Figure out what people want to buy instead of basically making laws that they have to buy everything from you.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Caelrie

[SanguineGus]

economy based on cash is easy prey to gold sellers, a culture based on people accomplishing things so that they can then go on and accomplish other things is "functional".

 

if only we could do something about people afking in battlegrounds being rewarded for doing so... oh yeah, no points for playing; commendations and winner points only.

[chton]

economy based on cash is easy prey to gold sellers, a culture based on people accomplishing things so that they can then go on and accomplish other things is "functional".

 

if only we could do something about people afking in battlegrounds being rewarded for doing so... oh yeah, no points for playing; commendations and winner points only.

 

Yet crafters want to be rewarded and richly for being afk.

[yamosk]

Signed!, thread name says it all

[--Grim--]

/signed

 

Just get rid of commendation vendors or up the price of the gear x10. Boom! Crafting instantly becomes useful.

 

ATM, crafting is a pointless waste of time and credits.

[OsarionRDM]

So you'd be ok with needing to pay me before you could talk to your trainer? Of course not. Your interdependency argument has limits and you know it. You can't use it to justify adding any sort of dependency you want.

 

I currently have the option to quest/PVP/vendor for my gear OR I could buy it from you. It's fine. It's perfect. Options are great! You don't need to be the only source of gear for me. This is a game, not a job. I want to adventure for what gear I can, not go out and farm credits so I can give them to you as my only option to gear up.

 

You're using a selfish argument. Stop trying to lobby the government (Bioware) to MAKE me buy from you, and instead be a merchant like you're supposed to be. Figure out what people want to buy instead of basically making laws that they have to buy everything from you.

 

Caelrie,

 

You seem to be one of the few people on the forum these days who are able to communicate with any sort of intelligence, so you should know your first paragraph is a straw man argument.

 

Your 2nd paragraph opens with pretty much the exact problem this thread is about. You can quest, PvP or use vendors for your gear... OR use crafters. However, crafters currently are such a terrible option compared to vendors, PvP gear or even questing a lot of times that it makes the system functionally worthless. This is the problem, and the point of the thread. Why in the world would you want to buy a crafted weapon from me, when you can go to your commendation vendor (from Coruscant nonetheless), buy an orange Blaster Pistol, and continue to upgrade that single pistol all the way from level 10 to 49 using the same commendation vendors? Where's the incentive for the crafter to start his/her trade? Where's the incentive to level it at all?

 

Again, your last paragraph deviates from the main point here. Crafters know good and well WHAT people want to buy. However the way the system is set up not only can we NOT make it in the first place, you're 10 times better off as a player just using (easily earned) commendations.

 

This is not selfishness, and nowhere in my argument did I say I wanted to MAKE people buy from me (red herring). I hate to use the old standby of "this is how it has always worked in an MMO", but if the system is tried and true, there's no need to change it. You may or may not have any experience with MMOs, but the means by which players almost always obtain items is:

A) Loot

B) Crafted

C) Quest Rewards

D) Vendors

Almost in that order in fact. It's been done. It works, it's how it should be. Vendors should be the LAST means of people obtaining items. It takes away from the interaction with other players otherwise. It weakens crafters and crafting in general. Some people who have no desire to interact with others (In an MMO, reallly?) may love the system but it's bad for the game overall.

 

Simply put, vendors are insanely imbalanced and need to be adjusted for the sake of crafting in general. That's not to say that crafting is without it's flaws... but that's a whole other subject.

[Caelrie]

Caelrie,

 

You seem to be one of the few people on the forum these days who are able to communicate with any sort of intelligence, so you should know your first paragraph is a straw man argument.

Of course it's a straw man argument. I did that on purpose and I expect you to answer the question. Your argument was that since dependency was expected, complaining about added dependency was wrong. My example took that to an extreme to show you how your point was wrong. There are limits to acceptable levels of dependency.

 

Your 2nd paragraph opens with pretty much the exact problem this thread is about. You can quest, PvP or use vendors for your gear... OR use crafters. However, crafters currently are such a terrible option compared to vendors, PvP gear or even questing a lot of times that it makes the system functionally worthless. This is the problem, and the point of the thread. Why in the world would you want to buy a crafted weapon from me, when you can go to your commendation vendor (from Coruscant nonetheless), buy an orange Blaster Pistol, and continue to upgrade that single pistol all the way from level 10 to 49 using the same commendation vendors? Where's the incentive for the crafter to start his/her trade? Where's the incentive to level it at all?

Yes, I understand your problem. You feel that commendation gear is better than yours. The problem is your proposed solution: remove commendation gear so players have no choice but to buy from you.

 

That's called lemon socialism, and it has no place in SWTOR. Lobby for your crafted gear to be improved to give players MORE choices. Don't lobby for players to be given mandates to give their money to you.

 

Again, your last paragraph deviates from the main point here. Crafters know good and well WHAT people want to buy. However the way the system is set up not only can we NOT make it in the first place, you're 10 times better off as a player just using (easily earned) commendations.

You keep talking about commendations like you can just go pick up as many as you want, and that really weakens your point. Several people in the thread have pointed this out to you, but you're not listening. Commendations are hard to get.

 

This is not selfishness, and nowhere in my argument did I say I wanted to MAKE people buy from me (red herring).

And that's a flat-out lie. Right away in the original post, it's being asked that players only be able to get these mods from crafters.

 

 

I hate to use the old standby of "this is how it has always worked in an MMO", but if the system is tried and true, there's no need to change it. You may or may not have any experience with MMOs, but the means by which players almost always obtain items is:

A) Loot

B) Crafted

C) Quest Rewards

D) Vendors

Almost in that order in fact. It's been done. It works, it's how it should be. Vendors should be the LAST means of people obtaining items. It takes away from the interaction with other players otherwise. It weakens crafters and crafting in general. Some people who have no desire to interact with others (In an MMO, reallly?) may love the system but it's bad for the game overall.

 

Simply put, vendors are insanely imbalanced and need to be adjusted for the sake of crafting in general. That's not to say that crafting is without it's flaws... but that's a whole other subject.

I think the reason you can't see this issue clearly is that you're confusing commendation vendors with normal vendors. They're not the same. Commendation vendors count as loot, not vendors. It's the same token turn-in system that's become popular in most MMORPGs. VENDORS do exist in SWTOR too. You can buy gear from them for credits, and it's usually not that great so it's last in your list as it should be.

[OsarionRDM]

/facepalm

 

 

Yes, I understand your problem. You feel that commendation gear is better than yours. The problem is your proposed solution: remove commendation gear so players have no choice but to buy from you.

 

Re-read what I wrote and tell me where I propose to remove commendation gear.

And there's no reasonable debate to the contrary. The incentive to use gear from Commendation vendors is so much greater than crafted gear it's not even a contest.

 

That's called lemon socialism, and it has no place in SWTOR. Lobby for your crafted gear to be improved to give players MORE choices.

 

Pretty sure that's one of the things I'm talking about.

 

You keep talking about commendations like you can just go pick up as many as you want, and that really weakens your point. Several people in the thread have pointed this out to you, but you're not listening. Commendations are hard to get.

 

By the time I was done questing in Nar'Shadda (not even counting the Bonus Series) I had 51 commendations. They're easy enough to get I assure you.

 

 

And that's a flat-out lie. Right away in the original post, it's being asked that players only be able to get these mods from crafters.

 

My point... MY point has nothing to do with only being able to get mods from crafters. Re-read.

 

 

 

I think the reason you can't see this issue clearly is that you're confusing commendation vendors with normal vendors. They're not the same. Commendation vendors count as loot, not vendors. It's the same token turn-in system that's become popular in most MMORPGs. VENDORS do exist in SWTOR too. You can buy gear from them for credits, and it's usually not that great so it's last in your list as it should be.

 

Again... Re-read and stop misquoting me. I very clearly state that (Commendation) vendors are imbalanced... NOT that they need to be removed, and that crafting needs improvements on top of it all.

[Caelrie]

/facepalm

I didn't read your post because when you start it by being this rude, I figure it's not worth the time.

[Dorkfrey]

I didn't read your post because when you start it by being this rude, I figure it's not worth the time.

 

Ahh, I see you've run out of arguements then. He wins by default.

 

In fact, having read both of your arguements... there's reason why he's responding, and - no, I'm not going to get into this one. I've made my thoughts on this topic clear way back - and his points somewhat coincide with some of mine.

 

I think this vendored gear is a stroke of genius, however - the fact that crafting isn't readily in-line with it, or obviously in line with it, is a massive inbalance.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Dorkfrey

[Caelrie]

Ahh, I see you've run out of arguements then. He wins by default.

If that's what he wishes to believe, I'm fine with it. I myself only choose to debate with polite people, and I don't need to "win".

 

In fact, having read both of your arguements... there's reason why he's responding, and - no, I'm not going to get into this one. I've made my thoughts on this topic clear way back - and his points somewhat coincide with some of mine.

 

I think this vendored gear is a stroke of genius, however - the fact that crafting isn't readily in-line with it, or obviously in line with it, is a massive inbalance.

I don't think it's an imbalance, but that's because I want loot to be better than crafted gear simply because of the effort it takes to get it compared to crafting. The only exception is if loot uses bind-on-pickup mats from raid drops, at which point I'm ok with it being as good.

 

Where we disagree is on the classification of commendation vendors in the loot hierarchy. I see them as loot, he sees them as vendors.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Caelrie

[Caelrie]

I suspect Osarion and I don't disagree as much as it seems, since really the person I'm arguing with is the person who started this thread, not him. I'm objecting to removing loot from commendation vendors.

[Firehammer]

I make fairly good $$ on purple/blue mod items, though my prices aren't extreme. I find I have to grind quite a bit to get commendations so buying is usually easier. I do think vendors should be limited to green, base quality.

 

Artifice - 400

Archeology - 400

Treasure Hunting - 400

Armstech - 260

Scavenging -320

Underworld - 280

Cybertech - 260

[Dorkfrey]

I suspect Osarion and I don't disagree as much as it seems, since really the person I'm arguing with is the person who started this thread, not him. I'm objecting to removing loot from commendation vendors.

 

I agree with Vendors selling decent gear. That's "easily" obtainable. It's a sublime stroke of genius. That's either been a years+ research by EA/BW into this, or - they've stumbled across it by serendipity.

 

If crafted gear - doesn't readily run in line with it, then there is a HUGE case of lacking parity. And since I suspect, that EA/BW are trying to appeal to many who left SWG, ignoring the market of crafting is a foolish notion to take.

 

What the majority of crafters would like - is some kind of parity.

 

If it takes me a few hours worth of work/effort to make an item at low level - (including the RE's going into getting the schematics) if it's superceded by superior gear - that can be obtained for ten minutes worth of questing to get the required currency, there is a serious lack of parity between craft and vendor. This gap increases as you level. This is why crafters are complaining.

 

What some see - or rather fail to see, are the design theories behind this (at least I hope they were planned). I think many would just like a case of - things feeling a little more balanced across the board.We're not asking you to be beholden to us, but we're asking for the chance to produce something worth buying. And since I do believe that BW are trying to appeal to those who've left SWG over the years as people who'd want to play this - crafters need to be included in this game, somewhat. Which at the moment, it's not faring well for them.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Dorkfrey

[Caelrie]

I agree with Vendors selling decent gear. That's "easily" obtainable. It's a sublime stroke of genius. That's either been a years+ research by EA/BW into this, or - they've stumbled across it by serendipity.

They actually just stole it from World of Warcraft.

 

If crafted gear - doesn't readily run in line with it, then there is a HUGE case of lacking parity. And since I suspect, that EA/BW are trying to appeal to many who left SWG, ignoring the market of crafting is a foolish notion to take.

They're never going to add SWG's crafting system to this game. Ever. SWG had no competitive endgame whatsoever. It was a crafter's utopia, at the expense of everyone else, and the game. Gameplay consisted of farming credits like a job, so you could buy gear to... farm more credits. And while you were farming more credits to buy more gear, your current gear broke so you needed to farm even more credits to replace that too! It was a job, didn't feel much like a game unless you were one of the crafters.

 

 

What the majority of crafters would like - is some kind of parity.

What the majority of crafters would like would wreck the game. They want SWG. They want to control EVERYTHING.

 

If it takes me a few hours worth of work/effort to make an item at low level - (including the RE's going into getting the schematics) if it's superceded by superior gear - that can be obtained for ten minutes worth of questing to get the required currency, there is a serious lack of parity between craft and vendor. This gap increases as you level. This is why crafters are complaining.

We don't yet know if this gap really exists at level 50 or not because crafters are still discovering their recipes. If there turns out to be a huge gap, I'm all for buffing up crafting. I'm just not yet convinced this gap exists.

 

What some see - or rather fail to see, are the design theories behind this (at least I hope they were planned). I think many would just like a case of - things feeling a little more balanced across the board.We're not asking you to be beholden to us, but we're asking for the chance to produce something worth buying. And since I do believe that BW are trying to appeal to those who've left SWG over the years as people who'd want to play this - crafters need to be included in this game, somewhat. Which at the moment, it's not faring well for them.

We just disagree on the fundamentals here, that's all. I believe crafting should in no way ever equal the best PvP or raid loot unless it requires raid or PvP loot to craft it. Crafting should be capped at the level of effort it takes to get the mats, and I don't mean time.

 

I don't care if it took you 34,023 hours to make something if you did it all with your companions on your ship. That's just time, not effort. That 34 thousand hour item shouldn't equal even a first-boss drop from an operation. Now if the thing you made requires drops from that boss, then fine, it can be equal.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Caelrie

[Nexxa]

There ain't as much money floating around since they nerfed slicing. Other professions may have to tone down their prices on the market because of that. Personally I think Bioware could give crafters unique (and good looking) models for custom items that are relatively easy to obtain (say from the crew skill trainer). Maybe some unique mods, crystal colors and somesuch. Just options to consider rather than upsetting the majority so the crafters feel better. Edited January 8, 2012 by Nexxa

[TrickJericho]

The biggest problem is the assumption that commendation vendors are vendors when really they should be treated as loot.

 

Notice how mods etc do not drop as loot from mobs? Instead of having mods, enhancements etc drop from mobs they made it so the mobs drop commendations and you turn them in for the drops you want.

 

They could easily have made the mods as drops but the commendation method makes it so when you finally put the time in to get the drop, you get the one you need instead of getting a random one which is more than likely one you wont need.

 

It takes a while to get 7 commendations to buy an armour mod (for example). To max out a full set of orange gear and one weapon (let alone 2) takes almost 70 commendations. I have never obtained that many commendations from a single planet, most I ever got was 32, and that was before I realized I needed to take gear for companions from quests instead of commendations in order to make them viable in a fight. After that, it was more like 20. Not even close to enough to replace all the mods in my gear.

 

Therefore, the need to farm a while to get enough commendations to buy everything you need will take longer than what you get for normal questing, and this is no different than people who farm for drops, they bypass the crafters too, as it should be. They could have made the time it takes to get a blue drop be about the same on average as getting the equivalent number of commendations, but this method is far superior for the reason I outlined in the third paragraph of this post.

 

Bottom line is this, commendation vendors are not vendors, they are loot. And as most people will agree, loot trumps crafted in the "best of" race.

[Caelrie]

The biggest problem is the assumption that commendation vendors are vendors when really they should be treated as loot.

A thousand times this. Commendation vendors are mostly there to mitigate the luck factor of drops, especially from flashpoints. You run a flashpoint 5 times and what you want never drops, so you're given the option to use your loot drops (commendations) to "buy" it from a vendor. You already put in the work. Bioware is just helping make sure you get a reward for it you can use.

 

Bioware stole this system from other MMORPGs, and it works beautifully. Leave it alone.

 

There ain't as much money floating around since they nerfed slicing. Other professions may have to tone down their prices on the market because of that. Personally I think Bioware could give crafters unique (and good looking) models for custom items that are relatively easy to obtain (say from the crew skill trainer). Maybe some unique mods, crystal colors and somesuch. Just options to consider rather than upsetting the majority so the crafters feel better.

 

I agree. Let crafters make unique things so they don't HAVE to compete.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Caelrie

[Dorkfrey]

They actually just stole it from World of Warcraft.

 

 

They're never going to add SWG's crafting system to this game. Ever. SWG had no competitive endgame whatsoever. It was a crafter's utopia, at the expense of everyone else, and the game. Gameplay consisted of farming credits like a job, so you could buy gear to... farm more credits. And while you were farming more credits to buy more gear, your current gear broke so you needed to farm even more credits to replace that too! It was a job, didn't feel much like a game unless you were one of the crafters.

 

 

 

What the majority of crafters would like would wreck the game. They want SWG. They want to control EVERYTHING.

 

 

We don't yet know if this gap really exists at level 50 or not because crafters are still discovering their recipes. If there turns out to be a huge gap, I'm all for buffing up crafting. I'm just not yet convinced this gap exists.

 

 

We just disagree on the fundamentals here, that's all. I believe crafting should in no way ever equal the best PvP or raid loot unless it requires raid or PvP loot to craft it. Crafting should be capped at the level of effort it takes to get the mats, and I don't mean time.

 

I don't care if it took you 34,023 hours to make something if you did it all with your companions on your ship. That's just time, not effort. That 34 thousand hour item shouldn't equal even a first-boss drop from an operation. Now if the thing you made requires drops from that boss, then fine, it can be equal.

 

Lady, you are now twisting *MY* words, and your recollection of SWG is vastly different to mine.

 

WoW did not run a commendation system based around questing for the ENTIRETY of it's game. At least not up till the point which I left. They ran a commendation/badge system for the current highest tier of gear/and dungeoning system. If you want me to really go into depth, I can, but you won't come out smelling of roses by the time I'm finished with you. Bioware changed the rules. If you can't see that, that's fine - I'll not think you any less ignorant than you are.

 

I never was a crafter in SWG - and I experienced the end game, and I enjoyed it - was never a money grind, and your viewpoint is screwed hardcore (But that's okay - everyone is allowed their perspective, no matter how ignorant they may be).

 

A crafted item that takes tens of hours to make, should be worth less than something you tripped up over and found? You have some serious issues of balance to deal with. I would make some mocking statement right now, but - seriously - your post is messed up.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Dorkfrey

[gluefoot]

a simple fix = make commendation vendors bop companion gear only and make slicing the way it was so the people that dont like crafting (like yourself) have an easy means to make the income they need so they can afford to buy their gear through the gtn.

 

you already said that....

 

And you are indeed wrong. Commendations aren't hurting the economy, just your false sense of internet pride. Think about it. If commendations were gimped, and everyone was forced to get the good items from the GTN, then suppliers would see the higher demand and mark up their prices. Higher prices means less money going into the GTN because more and more people don't want to spend as much money for the gear on the GTN.

 

So what you are proposing would essentially create desparation for good gear. Suppliers would be discouraged, buyers would all have hoover purses after buying one piece of gear, and the GTN will be barren.

Edited January 8, 2012 by gluefoot