Should Open World PvP be more like DAOC?

[juliandracos]

Given all of the positive feelings experienced gamers have with the DAOC RvR (PvP) system, I am wondering if SWTOR should develop a two tier system. The warzones can keep the current system and current rewards (items). The Open World PvP system should be based along DAOC style. Here is what I mean:

 

1. Rewards are based on killing enemy players.

2. A 'relic' system of rewards for your side based on holding objectives.

3. Reward system that further developers your character (not your items). It would need to be different than the DAOC reward system because many of the things your spec for in SWTOR are things you get for as realm abilities. For those unfamiliar with the DAOC reward system go here: http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/realm-abilities

4. Rewards for guilds that participate in open world PvP.

 

There are other things that can be added to the list, but those seem to cover the basics. Maybe an Base (PvP dungeon) to fight over.

 

So the key is those players who enjoy/want simply gear as a reward, want even numbers, equal levels, etc can stick to Warzones. You can even disable the open world PvP benefits to keep these players happy.

 

Meanwhile, people who want a different system, one that goes back to arguably the best PvP game ever made, can get some of that magic back in SWTOR.

[Cleverist]

They are heading that way if you read the new pvp memo. Should be really good, I played WAR for a few years so the closer it gets to DAOC the happier I will be.

[spaceball_]

They dropped the ball when it came to faction population balance, just like every other recent MMO. It's like, "WoW didn't do it, so we don't have to!" They should have locked server pop ratios at something like 5:8 and send you to another server if you wanted to play Empire.

 

If you want things like relics and such, you can't have the pop ratio on a sevrer being 5:1 or worse, the low pop side would never, EVER do anything.

Edited January 5, 2012 by spaceball_

[juliandracos]

I doubt the faction ratio would be an issue unless it is way out of wack (which is might be on some servers.) But there are ways to handle this. For example, low pop side gets to bring in companions, or maybe higher NPC mercs or something.

[Vydor_HC]

They dropped the ball when it came to faction population balance, just like every other recent MMO. It's like, "WoW didn't do it, so we don't have to!" They should have locked server pop ratios at something like 5:8 and send you to another server if you wanted to play Empire.

 

If you want things like relics and such, you can't have the pop ratio on a sevrer being 5:1 or worse, the low pop side would never, EVER do anything.

 

-nods-

 

This could be an issue. Though they could break it down into 4 factions, along empire/republic and dark/light. That could lead to some really neat tactical fighting.

 

But to the OP's point...yes, I really hope they go the DAoC way. And from things I've read I kinda get excited.

[xVexillex]

I loved DAOC but you simply cant have a great system like daocs without the 3rd faction, 3 factions guranteed that if one side was too strong the other 2 would team up to restore balance.

 

any world pvp changes in a daoc style are impossible simply because there are too many empire players.

 

EDIT:

 

also I would KILL for daocs reward system... upgrading your character through a choice of active or passive abilities is FAR better then this gear=upgrade crap all new MMOs have.

Edited January 5, 2012 by xVexillex

[Ahmrill]

I played DAOC for over 8 years, nothing since had compared to the quality of PvP I found there. Each game has it's unique feel, but they all seem to be following the same two faction system and put PvE first and squeeze PvP in when they can.

 

SWTOR simply is not designed and will never have 3 factions. Just need to wait for the 3 games coming out (hopefully) in the next year that are based on DAOC and the 3 faction system.

[xVexillex]

I played DAOC for over 8 years, nothing since had compared to the quality of PvP I found there. Each game has it's unique feel, but they all seem to be following the same two faction system and put PvE first and squeeze PvP in when they can.

 

SWTOR simply is not designed and will never have 3 factions. Just need to wait for the 3 games coming out (hopefully) in the next year that are based on DAOC and the 3 faction system.

 

3 games based on daoc? Did I misread that?

 

DETAILS MAN!

 

I love TOR but if any company made a DAOC style 3 faction rvr game id be all ovver that **** so fast...

[CHRISGG]

This game isn't suited for large scale combat for technical reasons.

[aRtFuL]

Read the developers mmo on pvp posted earlier today.

[Vant]

If this was to be done, it would need to be a persistent struggle like the Frontiers were. There were no resets, there were no timers. There was you conquer the keep, kill the keep commander and win the keep. That makes keeping that keep commander alive extremely important.

 

It would need to require persistent and constant vigilance by players to guard these objectives. My thoughts:

 

1) The Star Wars Galaxy has many planets, turn some of these planets or "moons" into Objectives and I'm talking zone wide objectives. Like 1 objective per area. Most planets I've been to so far have around 5 areas. There need to be holdable positions in each area. Now, if one side or the other is able to take every objective in a planet, then they receive some sort of Buff that is persistent across all worlds and effects all players in that faction. I view this as a combination of Planetside and DAoC.

 

2) I would have 3 or so worlds with these objectives that each provide a different "Buff" that is significant to make a difference. Losing a single area on that planet means losing the buff.

 

3) Holding these areas, even before locking a planet for the buff, opens up Bosses or Quest bosses that will drop significant Items of interest. I know this is similar to "that other game" but the key to it is actually HOLDING the area, not showing up for a battle, then going away for 2 hours, and then coming back. The areas MUST BE HELD AT ALL TIMES.

[spaceball_]

I loved DAOC but you simply cant have a great system like daocs without the 3rd faction, 3 factions guranteed that if one side was too strong the other 2 would team up to restore balance.

 

any world pvp changes in a daoc style are impossible simply because there are too many empire players.

 

EDIT:

 

also I would KILL for daocs reward system... upgrading your character through a choice of active or passive abilities is FAR better then this gear=upgrade crap all new MMOs have.

 

I liked that system alot too, but as you should know DAoC never raised the level cap, and that was one way they could make your toon stronger. There is too much "free money" these companies get now by raising the level cap via expansions, and making you basically re-level your characters and re-acquire the geared you worked for, every time.

Edited January 5, 2012 by spaceball_

[Vydor_HC]

I liked that system alot too, but as you should know DAoC never raised the level cap, and that was one way they could make your toon stronger. There is too much "free money" these companies get now by raising the level cap via expansions, and making you basically re-level your characters and re-acquire the geared you worked for, every time.

 

Well, they kinda did in a way with Master/Champion levels and Realm Ranks.

[Aerodi]

I had hoped for a daoc style system pre launch, but after realizing the population issue will never let this happen we need to look at alternatives.

 

You can still have a territory control system and keep it instanced to level the playing field. Player controlled outposts/space stations/etc. can be done the way Global Agenda AvA conquest works. You get something similar to the galaxy map, but a more zoomed in version that shows all player controlled assets. You form your group/op and attack the asset and the defenders have a few minutes to get their group inside to wait for the attack before it starts.

 

Let the defenders choose a few hours per day, close to server prime time, to make their assets attackable (since nobody liked daoc 3am raids) and now you have the freedom to add different map types and incentives while avoiding any issues with population.

 

From the looks of it though, they're likely to just copy everything WoW did with their pvp system and focus any kind of imaginative design on pve raids.

[juliandracos]

If this was to be done, it would need to be a persistent struggle like the Frontiers were. There were no resets, there were no timers. There was you conquer the keep, kill the keep commander and win the keep. That makes keeping that keep commander alive extremely important.

 

3) Holding these areas, even before locking a planet for the buff, opens up Bosses or Quest bosses that will drop significant Items of interest. I know this is similar to "that other game" but the key to it is actually HOLDING the area, not showing up for a battle, then going away for 2 hours, and then coming back. The areas MUST BE HELD AT ALL TIMES.

 

Yep. World PvP needs to reflect the ongoing conflict between the two sides. It needs to reward holding territory (like you do in warfare).

[Bloodylittle]

3 games based on daoc? Did I misread that?

 

DETAILS MAN!

 

I love TOR but if any company made a DAOC style 3 faction rvr game id be all ovver that **** so fast...

 

Prolly talkin about Dominus (Prime Online) ... http://www.dominusthegame.com/

 

these guys all played daoc...and Sanya...the former DAOC community lead is now there.

[Grimmace]

They are heading that way if you read the new pvp memo. Should be really good, I played WAR for a few years so the closer it gets to DAOC the happier I will be.

 

lol they aren't heading anywhere near "WAR" or "DAOC" style pvp... not even in the same ballpark.

[TwitchFE]

Prolly talkin about Dominus (Prime Online) ... http://www.dominusthegame.com/

 

these guys all played daoc...and Sanya...the former DAOC community lead is now there.

 

<3 Sanya - she is/has been the pillar of what I judge all community managers by.

[xVexillex]

Prolly talkin about Dominus (Prime Online) ... http://www.dominusthegame.com/

 

these guys all played daoc...and Sanya...the former DAOC community lead is now there.

 

SAnya was awesome... The only community lead in ANY mmo ive played that was actually tolerable and helpful to the playerbase

[juliandracos]

/bump

[Kooked]

Those that played DAOC obviously know it was and still is the best PvP system out there. I would flock easily to a game with open world PvP that has a relic system, 3 realms and builds your character off 'realm abilities' you gain from PvP, on top of the playstyle/game play. While SW:TOR will not be exactly the same, it would be nice if they can lean DAOC's way.

 

Everytime someone stops playing a new game (Age of Conan, WAR, Rift, WOW), they always come back to DAOC because the PvP is fun.

 

SW:TOR is 10/10 in terms of RPG feel, soloing, PvE, storyline. PvP is what's going to get the low score and what better way to fix that than looking at the best PvP game out there as an example.

[rchase]

Well, they kinda did in a way with Master/Champion levels and Realm Ranks.

 

The thing is, you could earn all of those levels through PvP.

 

What instanced/queue'd PvP does is it kills the thrill of the hunt as well. Yeah, there'd be times in DAoC where it would take a few minutes to find an opponent, but you didn't know who was out there. It most likely wasn't an equal number of opponents. You could come across a group of 4 when you're a group of 8, or you could run into a zerg.

 

Also, modern (WoW style) PvP has almost no strategy in open world PvP. Ilum is so small, so simple, and holds the wrong motivations to get out there and PvP. This whole concept of "dailies" needs to DIE. DAoC had multiple, persistent objectives and reasons for you to get in the Frontiers to PvP. As far as strategy goes, you could create a portal gateway into another enemies lands in the frontiers by going there, and taking a keep along with all of it's outpost towers. You could stop the other realm's reinforcements by capturing one of their portal keep's towers, thus aiding you in your conquest of the realm. The more keeps you held, the longer you could ensure Darkness Falls, an epic dungeon, would be under your control. You could capture keeps on the path to getting to the enemies' relic keep. These relics would provide a bonus to either melee or magic damage to your entire realm. So if you owned all 3 magic relics, your realm would to +30% magic damage.

 

I'm not going to list all of the features that made DAoC PvP the best in the business. I'm just shocked that BioWare, who owns DAoC now... didn't have the wit to implement this sort of PvP system along with their world-best PvE system. This had the potential to be the best MMO of all time. Sadly, once you get to level 50, they want you to grind out 'dailies' and get gear. The problem is that it's not sustainable. If the only motivation is to get gear, once you've done it you have nothing else left to do. DAoC's system was infinite.

[RpTheHotrod]

This was my suggestion here:

 

 

Ilum. Right now it's a bunch of, "who cares?" capture points with honestly no reason to benefit from even owning the capture points. It's wide open, you can stroll right in, take it, stroll right back out, the enemy can stroll in, take it, meh who cares. Right? There's no real territory control there...it's just open space. In a matter of minutes a single person can capture the entire zone if left unopposed.

 

Please note that this does NOT cover Faction Population Imbalance. This is considering that the imbalance is not an issue. 2 faction games are difficult to population balance, especially when there is "good vs evil" because typically aggressive (pvp) players are drawn to the aggressive (evil) gameplay style. It's just a natural psychological effect. That's why in WoW Horde typically were better at PvP, while alliance was better at PvE (raids). Three factions are often needed to help reduce imbalance issues.

 

 

The following suggestion would REQUIRE players to take ownership in their faction. You could only be one faction per server in order to prevent easy creation of "spy" characters.

 

Instead, each point point should be made up of a base, buildings and all. The faction that owns it would have NPC guards that stand guard and defend it. The higher level you are in valor, the more options you have that you can actually spend at the base to upgrade it's defenses and capabilities (more guards, tougher defensive droids, etc...). Special vendors would be located inside the bases that are not available anywhere else such as advanced PVP stims, special crafting schematics, and pvp related gear. The higher the "tier" of the base (through player purchasable base upgrades), the more the special vendor would have available. Also, the longer a base is held, the more items the vendor would have, as well. (a Tier 2 base that has been held for 3 hours would have more available than a Tier 2 base that was just captured and upgraded to Tier 2). Upon capturing a base the Tier is reset to 1.

 

Also, each base could earn a benefit for every member of that faction (PvE and PvP). For example, if your faction owns the middle base, everyone gets +5% XP/Legacy XP, or perhaps an increase in credit gains, or a higher chance at crits in crafting. Maybe a vendor in each base allows you to purchase a character upgrade that is active as long as the base is yours. In order to capture an enemy base, you'd have to take down several security consoles and then take out the commanding officer which would be a tough NPC. The defending faction could obviously be in the base and help defend it. Taking a base would then be a big deal and territory control would happen over a longer period of time instead of "full control in a few minutes". There would be incentive to capture and defend bases and no incentive for "base trading".

 

An extra option would be an ability for a guild to "own" a taken base. It would require special commendations that drop from enemy players. If enough commendations are spent from a particular guild, the base is now the guilds. The benefit of this is that all the passive player benefits the base gives to their faction is increased further for just that guild. They'd also have access to elite defenses.

 

In the end? Even taking a single base is a real victory for your faction...and the benefits are great. Territory control would mean something, and you'd potentially have day long territory struggles back and forth between guilds.

 

Yes, the current faction population imbalance is an issue. Outside of a handicap for one side, I'm not sure how they'll address it.

[Rhinoplat]

Go more like Shadowbane where it's guild vs guild on new planets, then yes. The faction imbalance wouldn't even be noticeable if they went with a system like in SB, because it would be strictly guilds vs guild, where even Imperial guilds could fight other Imperial guilds.

[Migrayn]

Ahh shadowbane such a fun game. That might be a way to save it. Worlds that have areas that can be controlled by guilds.

 

Surely even Sith guilds don't agree all the time, they could via for control of camps or bases.