Juggernaut Versus Powertech Tanking Comparison

[Sykomyke]

To a degree it's true, but then we're trying to look at mitigation / avoidance in a comparison fashion. To my knowledge they will not include something that requires a CD to live through unless they give each tank a CD to use for such an event, i.e. not a valid comparison because it's very existence is predicated on everyone having something that will work equally effectively for that event.

 

I'm speaking about the random variances they like to give in your average TTL scenario. Also, specific phases that require CDs in particular also give worse usage of active mitigation CDs because you must save them for that phase. For those that remember Algalon for WOW, he had an attack that must be eaten by someone and that someone must live through it alone. This meant you had to save your Shield Wall (or equivalent) for that particular attack. This effectively took that out of your basic TTL calculations.

 

Exactly. The point of the thread is the overall mitigation comparison between Juggernauts and Powertechs; this again points back to the original post outlining the static bonuses are disproportionate for each Advanced Class. Overall mitigation in a serious aspect doesn't take into context "cooldown" skills because there will always be a difference for different classes. The only thing that is certain are the passive bonuses for each talent/skill.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Zilrota
removed, rude

[Woopya]

Ok so this thread is getting complicated. I play healer. The guy I play with is a Jugg. I know him to be a good player.

 

I have also healed Powertech and Assassin tanks.

 

I have not had any more difficult a time healing a Jugg compared to any other tank class. So if they have a mitigation problem, I dont see it.

 

However, I do see a major difference in their ability to amass agro. They just cannot do it like other tanks can. It creates a problem for the healer because we have to emergecny heal others when we shouldnt have to because they ripped it off the Jugg.

 

This is just my opinion from playing the game as a pocket healer for a good friend.

[tomhjen]

how do you know how the combat system works? i see alot of good theory here, but no mention of how the game works. With out a working combat log we will not know so this numbers can be used at all, making all this good work useless.

[Kitru]

how do you know how the combat system works? i see alot of good theory here, but no mention of how the game works. With out a working combat log we will not know so this numbers can be used at all, making all this good work useless.

 

Empirical testing and the knowledge that game should be operating on sound math. The only reason the incoming damage math wouldn't be correct would be if the numbers we're being given are incorrect.

[tomhjen]

Empirical testing and the knowledge that game should be operating on sound math. The only reason the incoming damage math wouldn't be correct would be if the numbers we're being given are incorrect.

 

How do you know how the coefficient formula works here? i.e it is 3.5 in wow. How did you work it out in swTOR?

[Kitru]

How do you know how the coefficient formula works here? i.e it is 3.5 in wow. How did you work it out in swTOR?

 

Well, the attack mechanics were told to us by the developers (attack roll and then crit/block roll). The other math was determined by using the character screen and adding and removing gear. Like I said, there's a lot that we can empirically test and the only way that they would deviate from reality in any appreciable way is if those numbers we're being given by the game are wrong.

[tomhjen]

Well, the attack mechanics were told to us by the developers (attack roll and then crit/block roll). The other math was determined by using the character screen and adding and removing gear. Like I said, there's a lot that we can empirically test and the only way that they would deviate from reality in any appreciable way is if those numbers we're being given by the game are wrong.

 

Okei, well that is really good, then i agree the math should reflect what we see in game too. I thought there had been no info from the devs, except a few vage hints during the beta, and that was not much to go on. And i am glad someone has put the work in to it, good work and very good reading. So lots of thanks both to you and Sykomyke for putting all this work down.

 

Is it any chance you can PM me the attack mechanics? i want to get a bit more active in figuring out things my self aswell, something to do while waiting for heroics

Edited January 14, 2012 by tomhjen

[Amikae]

I am a Powertech tank and last night I tanked for the first time The Eternity Vault. I had no aggro problems with main tanking, however I do feel, that when the need arises, the Jugg is probably better suited to be a main tank. With the Powertech, what you see is what it is. I have only one def cooldown(not counting Oil slick) and one self heal, that's not really a "oh ****" button, because it's a low healing hot. I mostly use it when the healers are strained, it cannot save you from dying. The Jugg on the other hand has at least a few cooldowns, that can be used separately, and each of them reduces huge chunk of damage, so when **** hits the fan, you can count on them surviving.

 

On paper both classes seem fairly balanced. Our second tank is a Jugg, but he's still undergeared, so I haven't seen him in action yet, but when I do, I will post my impressions here.

[Heith]

The Jugg on the other hand has at least a few cooldowns, that can be used separately, and each of them reduces huge chunk of damage, so when **** hits the fan, you can count on them surviving.

 

all those wonderful buffs juggernauts get dont mean anything if they cant hold agro.

 

I have not had any more difficult a time healing a Jugg compared to any other tank class. So if they have a mitigation problem, I dont see it.

 

However, I do see a major difference in their ability to amass agro.

 

his observations are the same as mine. powertechs are the best tanks ATM because they have comparable mitigation sans cooldowns; with much, much better threat production.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Heith

[Teldaril]

Exactly. The point of the thread is the overall mitigation comparison between Juggernauts and Powertechs [...]

 

If this is the case, then the Juggernaute is better than the Powertech. Using the overall calculations from Tanking: A Primer with the best mitigation talents from the Juggernaut and Smash constantly up on the enemy the Juggernaut gets ~ 58% overall mitigation. The PT with Combust constantly up on the enemy ends up with ~ 55% overall mitigation.

 

Juggernaut:

 

A: 0.22 /w Smash

B: 0.20

C: 0.20

D: 0.4478 /w Deafening Defense

 

1-(1-0.22)(1-0.4478)(0.20*(1-0.20)+(1-0.20)) = 0,5865

 

PT:

 

A: 0.05

B: 0.32

C: 0.26

D: 0.4722

 

Since Combustion is a debuff on the enemy you cant just add it to D. You have to modify the formula with E = 0.04

 

 

1-(1-0.04 [this is (1 - E)] )(1-0.05)(1-0.4722)(0.32*(1-0.26)+(1-0.32)) = 0,5586

 

In addition the Juggernaute gets the far better def cd's for emergency situations.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Teldaril

[Xenon-se]

A healer would not notice any difference in 58% or 55% [theoretical optimal] mitigation.

 

Player skill will have a [much] bigger impact on the results than that.

[Teldaril]

I just wanted to show that the Vanguard/Powertech doesnt have the highest mitigation overall. The difference is that the V/P is less spikey. And that is what healers notice.

 

For emergency situations on the other side the other tanks can do better over a short duration because of the better def CDs, but when the OP says the thread is about overall mitigation, than this is not important.

[Vesperr]

edit: nvm, wrong calc. Overall darkness charge + eye of storm bonus (= stasis) is 176% (why not 170% (2.5+1.2) or 200% (1*2.5*1.2) ?).

 

Tankasin armor:

Base armor (with 20% from EoS): 2886 (should be 2405 without EoS).

Tank stance armor (with EoS): 6633

 

p.s. anyway, as I remember, healing 10% bonus is additive, which is not good for tankasin.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Vesperr

[Sykomyke]

I just wanted to show that the Vanguard/Powertech doesnt have the highest mitigation overall. The difference is that the V/P is less spikey. And that is what healers notice.

 

For emergency situations on the other side the other tanks can do better over a short duration because of the better def CDs, but when the OP says the thread is about overall mitigation, than this is not important.

 

While I appreciate the attempt to get the thread back on track, please don't pull numbers from another thread.

 

Mean Mitigation is just that, an average mitigation given in one parsing circumstance. A better evaluation of this would be a modal score, effectively an average of several parsing circumstances. However this requires realistic computations in realistic situations in a controlled setting as opposed to forum theorycrafting.

 

Edit: To give an example: I did the math specifically for comparison to Oil Slick versus sustained Smash. I did it in a time frame that was on an even parsing scale and didn't include any other mitigation. Oil slick comes out ahead; given equal incremental increases in the time frame of the parsing: Oil slick *Will* always come out ahead.

Yet when compared "holistically" such flaws are glossed over. And as I said before guaranteed damage reduction will always trump chance.

 

In laymen's terms: I don't give a rats booty what the Tanking Primer says (yes it does have good information though); I'm saying from actual experience in game that Juggernauts are below Powertechs overall. This includes damage dealt (Sub-par), AoE Threat generation (difficult), and tanking stats (non cohesive).

[Teldaril]

I dont wanted to say that the tanks are equivalent or that the Juggernaut is fine. I started to play as Vanguard, because i used the pre release time to check the numbers and mechanics behind the tanks. And as usual with combat systems like ToR's the mitigation tank will overcome the other tanks in most critical situations.

 

It was absolutley clear to me that the other tanks will complain about the Vanguard in terms of survivability even when the Vanguard got the worst def CD's.

 

This assumption solidified when i saw the first formulas. There is no way the tanks will be equivalent in terms of spikeyness other than make them the same. The only way to overcome this problem without changing the tanks is to make spikeyness irrelevant.

 

From what i saw in ToR right now, there is a lot less relevance of spikeyness than in other MMOs. Enemys do less damage and healers do less healing to compensate this. So tanks can survive longer without healing than in other MMOs and that makes spikeyness less relevant and overall squshiness more important.

 

The highest spikes i recognized on me were from large groupes of trash.

[FourTwent]

Actually, Kitru provided a well thought out analysis and was very polite about all of it, even after you responded like a child and demeaned him.

 

You have discredited yourself completely with your rude and childish responses.

 

I will be looking forward to reading Kitru's future posts on the topic, and will be sure to ignore yours, due to the way you handled yourself on this thread. I also will be sure to flag your posts for the very rude insults.

 

- W.

 

My thoughts exactly. No need to be rude if someone's disagreeing with you in a DEBATE

[Onostoolan]

Hi All,

 

Late addition to the thread - thanks for the interesting reading (even the heated debate lol)

 

Question to any and all takers. I'm a lvl 41 Jugg at the mo... got a level 22 powertech too (I'm a sucker for alting! )

 

Done a fair bit of tanking in other MMOs, and a little in TOR so far. Yes I know I'm not speaking from the strongest position ...But..having said that - I'm looking for some advice (or at least a little debate to help me make up my mind)

 

... from my experience of the Jugg tanking... AOE as stated can be a bit of a problem to say the least.. single target hasn't been as much of an issue - and I've been reading around optional spec's into the Jugg Vengence (14/27/0) which gives a higher damage output... but seems to focus even more heavilly on the snigle target from what I've read! - the result of my trial on this is indeed a more powerful "feel"... BUT..same AOE issues...and more resource problems (which really bug me)...making me feel like I can't "unload" on the enemy when tanking...I'm constantly holding back.

 

I DO enjoy the Jugg...don't get me wrong... but being an old-school Warrior from Wow - I know all about juggling with AOE threat issues... and yes, I know it can be worked around if you work hard and practice loads... but I must admit - I kinda can't be bothered going through the trauma again...losing agro stresses me out

 

SO...bearing my ranting above in mind... what think you on me switching my attentions away from the Jugg...and pushing on with the Powertech?

 

Thanks in advance

Edited January 26, 2012 by Onostoolan

[Teldaril]

I cant say alot about Jugg AoE, my Jugg alt is 17.

 

But my main is a Vanguard. You have some AoE abilities, but you cant spam them. Every class has to handle their resource. In most cases i dont use them alot. You dont have the resources to maintain aggro on every enemy in a group. Its like with every other tank - i try to get initial aggro, throw one AoE for the trash and focus on the hardest with single target attacks. The rest is up to the dds to focus and kill the weakest first.

 

No tank is able to maintain aggro on every enemy in large groups. Thats not the design idea behind this game. Next level of difficulty - everyone in the group has to work together.

[Onostoolan]

I cant say alot about Jugg AoE, my Jugg alt is 17.

 

But my main is a Vanguard. You have some AoE abilities, but you cant spam them. Every class has to handle their resource. In most cases i dont use them alot. You dont have the resources to maintain aggro on every enemy in a group. Its like with every other tank - i try to get initial aggro, throw one AoE for the trash and focus on the hardest with single target attacks. The rest is up to the dds to focus and kill the weakest first.

 

No tank is able to maintain aggro on every enemy in large groups. Thats not the design idea behind this game. Next level of difficulty - everyone in the group has to work together.

 

Fair point - thanks for the feedback. Think I'm just being on the paranoid side having had issues in other MMOs. The WOW-warrior thing was a bit of a mare at times... I could hold agro (after lots of practise and tuning etc)... but I always wanted my DPS guys to be able to go nuts and let themselves go instead of holding back because I couldn't hack it lol.

 

Then again.. as you say, TOR is a different level of game... pulling a weak mob in a dungeon isn't the end of the world for a DPS i guess... whereas in WOW it could mean a wipe.

 

Old habits die hard lol.. guess I need to finish to 50 and get more experience of end game before I make a decision. Just didn't want to spend a lot of time finishing a char, tuning and gearing etc - only to realise I was back to square one and stressing about tanking instead of enjoying it...its a thankless job as it is...without being a stress!

 

Thanks

[Thankyjack]

Pardon the WoW comparison, but Juggs are like paladins; powtechs are like warriors. Better innate mitigation versus better innate avoidance and CDs. Both are good.

[Onostoolan]

Pardon the WoW comparison, but Juggs are like paladins; powtechs are like warriors. Better innate mitigation versus better innate avoidance and CDs. Both are good.

 

Hmm..I always had Juggernauts in my head as the equiv of Warrior... and Powertechs as the Paladin...mainly because of the apparent single target focus of Juggernauts and AOE capabilities of PTs.. quite happy to be corected if I'm wrong - still learning whats what

 

I know that PT's can't just spam their AOE due to resource... but I've read quite a bit about the imrpoved power of their AOE vs the options a Juggernaut has.. was just hoping for confirmation.

 

Basically I'm trying to decide if I'm going to have enough of a problem with the AOE on a Juggernaut to justify me switching out now to a PT before I spend hours tuning and gearing etc....

 

OR..on the flip side, if I'm just being paranoid (and listening to too many horror stories)

 

Hope that makes sense? Thanks again guys - I'll stop hijacking the thread now (lol I don't know any maths to back up my thinking...I just go on the feel )

[Lucubration]

So from what I've read, Kitru provided an excellent comparison between tanks and the OP is suffering from a case of "grass is greener" when looking at the differences between tanks and making personal attacks. Thank you Kitru; that was informative.

[FieldMarshall]

When trying the Republic counterparts, i noticed that the JK/Jug seriously lacked in the AoE area compared to PT/VG,

making it harder to hold aggro on multiple enemies.

It also seems easier to pick up targets cause you have ranged attacks.

 

What are the benefits of going JK/Jug over PT/VG?

What do you get in return of having weaker AoE threat and limited ranged abilities?

[Kitru]

What are the benefits of going JK/Jug over PT/VG?

What do you get in return of having weaker AoE threat and limited ranged abilities?

 

Well, as far as I can tell, the biggest benefit is getting to use a lightsaber rather than a rifle. Beyond that, the only benefits are the tangential benefits attached to having a high defense chance: if a melee/ranged attack misses you, it doesn't apply the relevant debuff to you whereas a shielded attack will still suffer the full value of the debuff. The value of this benefit is, of course, a bit lacking since you can't reliable stack enough defense such that you will be able to rely upon this benefit, but it's there. Depending on your ability to deal with the mechanics of the classes you could *feasibly* argue that Focus/Rage is easier to manage than Ammo/Heat, though, having dealt with both, it's really a moot point once you learn to use the mechanics in their intended way.

 

Honestly, as far as I've seen, there isn't really a decent reason to go with a Guard/Jugg rather than a PT/VG: all of the nice tanking tools that Guards get are present for VGs and VGs get even more on top of them. The playstyles aren't even appreciably different beyond the greater capabilities of the VG. Shadows, at least, *play* very differently.

[angrydurf]

The mitigation numbers that I've seen here all seem to be within a few percentage points. Some variation depending on who does the math and what they wish to count into their version of base vs. cool down mitigation but all in all the numbers leave the tanks within the RNG f'd me range of each other IE a bad run on defense rolls or damage rolls will eclipse whatever benefit they may have.

 

All in all it looks like on paper at least the tanks are pretty comparable in base mitigation. Main differences are in how they mitigate. Shadow/Assassins rely on kinetic ward and it is nigh useless in aoe situations, Juggs/Guards rely on defense bonuses thus being more beholden to the RNG, PT/Vans mitigation is the most stable and reliable (though arguably lower). All of this is before looking at Cooldown mitigation.

 

So Shadow/Assassins end up being good to best mitigation vs. single target, With PT/vans being best overall Mitigation with stability winning out over spiky damage when basically otherwise equal, and Juggs/Guards as the de facto weakest on base mitigation.

 

then you can look at Mitigation from Cooldowns. this is really a more even spread. Vans/PT go with low CD low power CDs they won't be as good for oh crap moments but are available more often and overall end up over the long term end up performing about the best in a test of use whenever off CD, Juggs/Guards have the most powerful CD's but with the most difficult CDs making them excellent for oh crap moments but weak in a use on CD scenario due to low uptime, Assassins/Shadows fall in the middle with their CDs not having the strengths or weaknesses of either and being overall lesser for it neither best for use on CD nor in emergencies but bringing the best in specific situations IE facing down bad Tech/Force attacks.

 

So Really Each tank has pro's and cons and it's mostly a playstyle preference as to which is "better" thos who use CD's whenever up as layered additional mitigation will do best with Van/PT, those who save them for when things go south Jugg/Guard, and Sin/Shadow are pretty much niche for "caster" fights. At least when it comes to CD mitigation.

 

then there is threat. Pretty well acknowledged that AOE threat goes to Sin/Shadow and Van/PT with Jugg/Guard being very weak on multi target tanking due to their lack of aoes. Van/PT have better tools for managing spread out groups due to their availability of ranged threat generators on low CDs Even a quick hammer shot is often enough to keep threat off a healer for instance (especially if that healer is guarded). Sin/Shaddow/Van/PT also all have a pull which is a very nice threat tool both for its threat gen and control of the mobs. So in any multi mob pull the Jugg/Guardian will be the weakest by a fair amount. Single target is in general not an issue. I don't think any of the tanks have any real difficulty maintaining single target threat with a competent player at the helm though it may be easier for some it is easy enough that you have to be pretty bad to fail at single target threat with any of the tanks.

 

So effectively Single target is even, Jugg/Guard is weakest in multi pull, and PT/Van pulls to the lead with it's abilities on spread out pulls (though granted not by much as Sin/shadow do have some range attacks to gen threat with just not as many as Van/PT) In the end this leaves Jugg/Guard as weak on threat overall.

 

So in the overall rankings CD's are a bit of a wash as it's more situational and playstyle than anything, Jugg/Guard is weak on threat to a significant degree, and is to a small degree weak on base mitigation as their mitigation is unreliable though likely on par with Sin/Shadow when the sin/Shadow is aoe tanking and kinetic ward is weak. I don't think the mitigation is game breaking at all. It's a pretty small difference and mostly comes down to how healers feel about predictability of damage. in the final balance threat makes Juggs/Guards the weakest.

 

Juggs/Guards only strength is when things go wrong either in burst damage sections of a boss fight (which the other tanks Can weather though it may strain the healers more) or the more likely case of the healer dieing and needing to survive while they are rezzed, probably due to the Jugg/Guard being unable to maintain or gain threat on the pull or adds.

 

I don't think Mitigation needs to really be adjusted they are all close enough so as to be basically the same. Threat REALLY needs to be fixed as does some of the really bizzare layout of the Jugg/Guardian trees that makes a good argument for a primarily vengeance/vigilance as a better tank thank a full Immortal/defense spec. There is a major lack of synergy in how the Immortal/Defense spec is laid out.

 

P.S. I have thought of one place where Juggs/Guards can excel and that is as ball carriers in huttball. Force leap, force push to reset, forceleap again, Guardian leap with talents for stuns and/or speed or slows on the leap and good mitigation CDs they can be pretty unstoppable. Pretty cool in a theoretical way but lets face it no one plays a tank for PvP and even then it's a pretty niche specialty