WoW was released 7 YEARS ago - It is NOT the standard for MMO Release

[Cranberries]

I've killed prenerf m'uru and you just brought a tear in my eye. TBC was indeed a golden age.

 

M'uru prenerf made everyone cry. Whether it be because the boss encounter was so difficult you cried in anger/hatred/sorrow or you cried because you had finally taken in down and were crying due to immense joy.

 

PS: Our first kill we got the DPS trinket and our Rogue (with glaives) was playing on his Prot Paladin. Sad times.

[Daisycutting]

Did someone just say TBC was the best MMO expansion ever?

 

Yes... Outland was awesome.... just.... just awesome.... *cough*

 

Karazhan was the greatest raid known to man, im omitting hellboars and skettis.

[Blackardin]

Voice overs have been done before. Questing is only the journey to get to the actual content of the game.

 

End game in SWTOR is awful, buggy, and downright broken. It is not fun.

 

Because you sat in mom's basement and raced to fifty in three days? I wishI had a nickle for every knucklehead that did this in Wow, and then posted the same exact complaints. There was no content for them either, and it took months to even begin. MMO's do not ship complete. They launch with a shell, then build from there.

 

If you believe that this, or any MMO is the little more then a race to 50, for end game content, then I can understand your frustration. You are playing the wrong game. Oops. ;p

[squiek]

LoL. WoW is and was the standard for every MMO released after WoW.

Acutally, WoW is what every company wants - CASH !

 

In SWTOR I see WoW like stuff everywhere just in a unfinished, unpolished or bugged state.

I enjoy fanboy anger when they try to tell me there is nothing about WoW in SWTOR.

Even funnier it get's when they tell me WoW hasn't invented the wheel, it was there before WoW - not realizing, no matter the facts, that this argumnet doesn't make SWTOR a better game.

Edited January 4, 2012 by squiek

[Senatsu]

Numerous end game bugs?

Incomplete crew skills?

Ilum being, largely, pointless?

PvP being a complete FPS mess?

Raid loot distributed being, largely, moronic?

RNG PvP loot distribution rather than skill based distribution?

Lack of a combat log?

Lack of a customisable UI?

Lack of working raid frames?

 

... I could go on ... Like I said, SWTOR needed 6-12 months MORE in development.

 

Everything you posted there is spoonfed and different style of applying content, tweaking and bugs. WHICH IS TYPICAL FOR A NEWLY RELEASED MMO. For goodness sakes, let BW have some breathing room after all they have done. This game is 3-4 times as big in area as the entirety of WoW. 310,000 lines of dialogue. The most balanced class differences ever in a newly released MMO. More or less no server issues at all, at least they didn't last long.

 

All MMOs are works in progress. They need time to live and adapt to it's players before the developers can push for new features. That they are already working on more end-game content that will be released withing a MONTH of launch, is astounding.

Patience is a virtue, especially in an MMO of this magnitude.

[Sevenpatch]

I haven't read any of this thread as I'm tired of this retarded argument.

 

For all those that agree with the OP, read this post.

 

WoW has had 7 years to get to where it is now. That's 7 years to develop the content, work out bugs, idea's, etc etc.

 

However, apparently, because it was released in 2004, that means somehow magically any new MMORPG released now has to have the same or better content/functionality that WoW does today.

 

That. makes. no. sense. what. so. ever.

 

Here's the only way it makes sense. It is a requirement for any newly developed MMORPG to first build a time machine and travel back to 2004 or earlier, then begin developing their game in complete secret underground with thousands of testers until today, then kill all of the testers so they won't leak that the company has a time machine. That way they'll have had 7 plus years to work out the bugs, develop loads of content and everyone would be happy (well except for the dead testers, they'll be dead)!

 

Next point.

 

It's not easy to code games, it takes time. Throwing money and competition accomplishments in isn't going to make much of a difference in the time it takes to code/test. All you get is a few good idea's and more coders which ends up taking more time to test anyway.

 

Newsflash, every game has bugs, no way around it. Name one game that had no bugs and I'll start sending you my paycheck.

 

Finally, I don't give a flying ...... what anyone does here. Play the game, don't play the game, I don't give a ......

Edited January 4, 2012 by Sevenpatch

[TheHauntingBard]

I've killed prenerf m'uru and you just brought a tear in my eye. TBC was indeed a golden age.

 

Bit off topic but yes TBC was amazing, can call it the good old raiding days even pre nerf M'uru.

Like anything it had it's flaws but Blizzard brought out a lot of fun content for an expansion.

 

Op is pretty spot on Blizzard didn't had a lot to look at.

Bioware on the other hand did and tried to keep this game as close as possible to WOWs play style.

Problem is you try to copy the abilities but they showed they never really got what made WOW good.

 

 

I think Bioware should have spend more time getting things right and fixing bugs than hyping this game.

[Cranberries]

Everything you posted there is spoonfed and different style of applying content, tweaking and bugs. WHICH IS TYPICAL FOR A NEWLY RELEASED MMO. For goodness sakes, let BW have some breathing room after all they have done. This game is 3-4 times as big in area as the entirety of WoW. 310,000 lines of dialogue. The most balanced class differences ever in a newly released MMO. More or less no server issues at all, at least they didn't last long.

 

All MMOs are works in progress. They need time to live and adapt to it's players before the developers can push for new features. That they are already working on more end-game content that will be released withing a MONTH of launch, is astounding.

Patience is a virtue, especially in an MMO of this magnitude.

 

$300 million dollars and no combat log? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and no working raid frames? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and no AddOn API? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and an awful AH system? WoW had a better one with $40 million

 

There are so many basic (literally /roll) that are just missing. This game has not been developed properly. It will be, no doubt, a good game (maybe even great) in 6-12 months time, but I guarantee you not everyone will stick around 6-12 months just to see combat logs applied to a game that should've been released with them.

 

Also, WoW is bigger than SWTOR. I bet it takes me longer to get from Silithus to Darkshore than it takes you to get from the start of Tatooine to the end, not that you can do that purely on your mount or you'll die from exhaustion.

 

SWTOR had hugely more funding on WoW. I'm curious how it was distributed, it looks like $295 million was spent on voice acting (reused lines, lol) and the last $5 million was a mad dash to fit 40 - 50 content in. Hell, Corellia has more terminal quests than cinematic quests. Hell, at level 50 there are 3 cinematics: 2 for Kragga's Palace, 1 for Eternity Vault.

 

Good use of funding.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Cranberries

[Mrshush]

most of you fools, including the op are forgetting one thing. that technology is always evolving, the code that this game is wrote in is not the same code used 7years ago. technology evolves. if you gave them the exact same tools that wow used, updated with its most current versions. you could complain.

 

but some new software that wasnt even developed 7years ago is going to have unforseen issues. its not that hard to believe. hell remember that horrible windows before 7.... new stuff has issues, that no amount of testing can prevent.

 

ppl just exploited wows new raid finder... ffs...

[squiek]

WoW was better on RELEASE than SWTOR.

And WoW release was better than what it got nowdays, lolz.

Those 7 years arguments are bullcrap ;D

 

If we had WoW classic quality instead of cataclysm, believe me, this game wouldn't see 10k subs.

Edited January 4, 2012 by squiek

[Blackardin]

I don't care when wow was released. Honestly my wow playing days started in BC and ended in WotLK.

 

My summary of my time in wow:

 

Boring level grind to 70(then80).

Raid for gear until you can survive the next raid.

Rinse and repeat.

Realize how much fun this is NOT.

Quit, move on.

 

 

Now, my time in TOR thus far has been a blast. Just leveling through this game I have had more fun then I EVER had playing wow. Questing is fun with the voice over work and different class stories.

 

It has become apparent that all the people complaining about the bugs in the game, day in and day out, have apparently never played a PC game at release before. All PC games have bugs, its just the way it is. Some have more then others (I'm talking to you RAGE) but they ALL have bugs.

 

 

Now I know that since I have a differing opinion I will be labeled a "fanboy" and I honestly don't really give a sh*t. I'm a gamer, I play what I find is fun, I suggest you do the same.

 

What we have here are chronic complainers. Arm chair quarterbacks yelling "me, me, listen to me". They will complain about anything, defy logic, omit fact, misrepresent the past as a means of justifying their argument.

 

Like you, I'm having a blast with this game. My whole raiding guild from wow is. None are in a hurry to reach end game, all are enjoying the content....along with the masses that are doing the same.

 

This is a very minute representation of the classic 1% that my drill instructors used to talk about. There will always be that 1%. Lets hope they get it out of their system and move on quickly.

[Chassit]

OP is a troll.

[OriginSucks]

$300 million dollars and no combat log? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and no working raid frames? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and no AddOn API? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and an awful AH system? WoW had a better one with $40 million

 

Also, WoW is bigger than SWTOR. I bet it takes me longer to get from Silithus to Darkshore than it takes you to get from the start of Tatooine to the end, not that you can do that purely on your mount or you'll die from exhaustion.

 

SWTOR had hugely more funding on WoW. I'm curious how it was distributed, it looks like $295 million was spent on voice acting (reused lines, lol) and the last $5 million was a mad dash to fit 40 - 50 content in. Hell, Corellia has more terminal quests than cinematic quests. Hell, at level 50 there are 3 cinematics: 2 for Kragga's Palace, 1 for Eternity Vault.

 

Good use of funding.

 

 

You realized there is more then one planet in ToR right?.

 

And yes, you are right...wows AH interface was awesome...its not like anybody used addons to manage it or anything.

[kalexkhan]

One question for the folk saying that MMOs should be WoW clones because 'the WoW model works', and so on - if that's the case, why did WoW's subscriptions drop by about 2 million in 2011? From what I can see, people are simply getting tired of WoW and WoW clones, and want something new. SWTOR is something new.

 

Please elaborate in what particular ways its something new.

 

The only features i think that are completely new in SWTOR is the dressings on the tired and old regular gather/kill/click quests with cinematics.

 

And the crew/ship features.

 

These two things are their answers to making something new, and unfortunately, i don't think they are substantial enough to make me forget about WoW/be glad i quit it years ago. Everything I do in SWTOR pretty much reminds me of it.

 

I logged on to Alderaan yesterday, i'm level 30. I wandered around the hub, eyeballing my minimap for that shape that tells me theirs quests picking them up accordingly. I then made sure i went and talked to the little robot that will let me take the griffin back when i eventually get to new hubs. I then set out into the world on my mount, eyeballing my big map for the bullets indicating the quest locations. I didn't even care what the quests were because i knew when i got to those bullets i'd be able to figure out of it was either kill or click.

 

This exact experience, could have easily been the same experience someone in WoW would be having in this exact same moment, and i asked myself "WHY am i still doing this?"

[Senatsu]

$300 million dollars and no combat log? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and no working raid frames? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and no AddOn API? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and an awful AH system? WoW had a better one with $40 million

 

 

You think money makes a difference?

WoW had content that came at the right pace, with the right systems, at the right time. That is all.

I like it that there is no addons, at least for now. BioWare has already stated that they will get an addon API together, they just have other things on their plate at the moment.

I see no problem with the raid frames, unless it's a bug at which point you have already failed in recognizing the difference between a "feature" and a "bug".

SWTOR's AH system is clean, efficient and I haven't had any problems finding what I need.

Combat log is debatable in importance, but it wouldn't hurt them to have put it in. I agree with you on that.

 

The emphasis on an AddOn API by the community is mindboggling. Not only do you guys whine and complain about BW not making the UI more costumizable, but you are using AddOns in WoW to change the UI outside of WoW's own UI. That's an extremely counterproductive argument.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Senatsu

[Blackardin]

$300 million dollars and no combat log? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and no working raid frames? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and no AddOn API? WoW had it with $40 million.

$300 million dollars and an awful AH system? WoW had a better one with $40 million

 

A gallon of gase cost $1.56 back then. Cigerettes were the same. Your argument regarding dollar value is moot.

 

Once again, *sigh* MMO''s do not ship complete. They launch with a shell, then add content as they go. They put in the priority content, then begin to build. Do you, in your wildest dreams, imagine that this game will never have combat logs, working raid frames, etc?

 

Once again, the fast food generation that has difficulty looking beyond their nose to the future and what hurried decisions based on immediate gratification can yield. If these people even bothered to read some of the developer blogs, or even twitter before they posted their imagined realities, this thread would be alot shorter. ;p

[Cranberries]

You think money makes a difference?

WoW had content that came at the right pace, with the right systems, at the right time. That is all.

I like it that there is no addons, at least for now. BioWare has already stated that they will get an addon API together, they just have other things on their plate at the moment.

I see no problem with the raid frames, unless it's a bug at which point you have already failed in recognizing the difference between a "feature" and a "bug".

SWTOR's AH system is clean, efficient and I haven't had any problems finding what I need.

Combat log is debatable in importance, but it wouldn't hurt them to have put it in. I agree with you on that.

 

The emphasis on an AddOn API by the community is mindboggling. Not only do you guys whine and complain about BW not making the UI more costumizable, but you are using AddOns in WoW to change the UI outside of WoW's own UI. That's an extremely counterproductive argument.

 

You haven't raided. Or got to end game. Please don't comment on that which you don't know. Also ... the GTN is "clean and efficient"? I laughed at that, you cannot be serious.

[kalexkhan]

I want to ask the people in this thread the last time they called "Camp Check?" when they went into a zone.

 

Thats how you got xp/leveled up in EQ, you found a spot and pulled mobs, grinding for hours to get a half of a bubble of xp.

 

WoW came along and offered bite sized, personal quests you could do that were accessible, your own, incentivized and was the main arm of how you leveled up when it came out. Now, you still had to usually grind some, but these quests were just numerous enough to feel refreshingly new and awesome to its playerbase. It answered a specific question about how we can make the old and tired system in EQ, new and better.

 

How do you level in SWOTR? The same exact way you level in WoW, now they chose to try and make something new and better by dressing those quests with cinematics and personalized options through story etc. BUT in my opinion, because the quests still boil down to the same things WoW boiled them down to back in 07, i can't feel like its new and better.

 

As developers of a big budget, MMO, that by design is supposed to go toe to toe with WoW. You better be asking yourselves how are you going to make it better in KEY AREAS (because you'll never have as many features). Bioware, hasn't done the best job of doing this IMO.

 

Ships and crew.

 

and Fluff quests that are cool the first time you do them.

 

These are their 2 differentiators goin, and they fall flat after about level 30.

 

What other key differentiators is bioware offering that are so awesome, they build in forgiveness for all the lack of features that its main competitor has, and the inherent bugs new software inevitably has?

Edited January 4, 2012 by kalexkhan

[Senatsu]

Also ... the GTN is "clean and efficient"? I laughed at that, you cannot be serious.

 

Acctually, I am. I can find everything I need and I think it's very cool with the categories.

[TheHauntingBard]

I think I could have settled for just the main quests and class quest voice acted along with the starter area if they released a game with.

 

- Customizable UI

- Combat log

- Working raid frames

-Working end game content

- High resolution textures.

- No crash bugs

- Better and more character creation options.

- More and most of all different races.

- No guild chat bug

- Better optimization and some more eye candy for the high end rigs.

-More warfronts

-Being able to put auto camera off

-Legacy system (no ETA when it works)

- Better guild system

- Better character responsiveness.

- Bit more originality in game play (It's fun but very WOW/Rift like)

- Chat bubbles

- Better worked out queue systems

 

It's just my taste though.

Besides a lot of high level quests are 'bonus quests' and 'drop box quests' which aren't voice acted anyway.

 

These aren't even 'WOW futures' most of them could be found in games long before WOW.

Edited January 4, 2012 by TheHauntingBard

[KaosPeppers]

I am sick of people who dont understand the design process saying that wow being released 7 years ago is a valid argument.

 

 

Bioware had to make their own Engine.

Bioware had to write their own story.

Bioware had to write all the code.

Bioware had to make all the art work.

 

If they had gone to blizzard bought wow and updated it your argument would be valid.

 

 

Just because its 2012 does not mean that software is perfect.

 

Your argument is akin to saying the Iphone should be bug free because cell phones were released in the 80's

[bloodmoon]

I am sick of people bringing up WoW being released with bugs as a rebuttal to people saying how buggy SWTOR's release is. Let's bring up some facts:

 

• WoW was released nearly a DECADE ago.
  
• WoW did not have nearly as much resources as SWTOR
  
• WoW had nothing to use as a "perfect" standard - EQ/UO/SWG/etc were nowhere near what WoW was at release. SWTOR has 7 YEARS of WoW's dos and don'ts, what gained and lost customers, what people hated and liked. WoW didn't have this kind of feedback on aspects of the game.
  

There are probably many more, but this is enough to make your argument a moot point. Comparing WoW release to SWTOR release is utterly retarded, as the difference in not only time, resources, etc. is massive, but the fact SWTOR has a game so huge to simply "copy/paste" from (which they did, you can't deny it, unfortunately they didn't do it in the areas that count) that is 100% proven to WORK, yet didn't take advantage of it, just shows poor development. They took bits and pieces of a working system and instead of making it their own, literally left it as bits and pieces. That creates bugs.

 

 

Amen.. Well Said !

[TheHauntingBard]

I am sick of people who dont understand the design process saying that wow being released 7 years ago is a valid argument.

 

 

Bioware had to make their own Engine.

Bioware had to write their own story.

Bioware had to write all the code.

Bioware had to make all the art work.

 

If they had gone to blizzard bought wow and updated it your argument would be valid.

 

 

Just because its 2012 does not mean that software is perfect.

 

Your argument is akin to saying the Iphone should be bug free because cell phones were released in the 80's

 

 

Wrong Bioware didn't make this engine

Wrong Bioware uses the SW IP not everything they had to come up with

Wrong since the engine wasn't made by them a part of the frame/coding was done

Half most things have been designed and visualized, some things not how ever.

Edited January 4, 2012 by TheHauntingBard

[kalexkhan]

 

Your argument is akin to saying the Iphone should be bug free because cell phones were released in the 80's

 

Yea but the newest iphone, better have more features than a phone from the 80's had.

 

Why don't you go ask a hardcore EVE online player, or even better a WURM online player how their respective games compares to WoW. Do it. They'll both probably laugh in your face because those developers chose to make completely different games, with niche, and targeted audiences. The features are completely different, thats why you got laughed at and theirs not the greatest ground for comparison.

 

Now, Bioware didn't want to make a niche game, they wanted to make a game that will make them enough money to make a Lucas Arts liscense worth it. So they appropriated a more accessible model for a game, and chose to make Raid content/Instance content, Queued battlegrounds, and all kinds of other features WoW has.

 

Doing this by design, opens you up for comparisons in every way imagineable. Its fair game because you wanted to make a game similar to it. If you didn't want to be compared to WoW, you'd try to make something new and special, and unfortunately, more niche.

Edited January 4, 2012 by kalexkhan

[milmo]

A new game is still a new game, just because a game is made in 2011 doesn't mean it's without bugs (hello Skyrim). Games will ALWAYS have bugs, I'd say it's gotten worse with time, as the internet allowed developers to iron out the bugs in patches. Just because there have been previous MMOs with similar features doesn't mean a new game will have the same code, codewise it's gonna be totally different.

 

WoW has been out for 8 years, while you'd be right to compare features in its current incarnation to SWTOR, it would be naive at best to expect SWTOR to be as bug free. It would be unprecedented if it actually was. A new game is new and it will have wrinkles.

Edited January 4, 2012 by milmo