The Expertise stat has to go...

[wixxkruppel]

So just keep playing in that 10-49 bracket if you can't handle a 30% performance difference against your opponents due to a single badly designed gear stat, which existence makes no logical sense to begin with.

 

Fixed it for you.

Edited January 23, 2012 by wixxkruppel

[Okamakiri]

If top PVP gear = top PVE gear, there is no need for special PVP stat. Special stats just create segregation of player base, which is never good for the game. There is no reason why someone who enjoys both PVP and PVE can't wear a mix of PVP & PVE gear. Forcing people to focus on one aspect of the game is not good for anyone. And to all the PVP-only people in the thread against this idea, if you think you're hot sh*t, then you shouldn't need a special stat advantage to beat a "PVE noob". Besides, this isn't WoW, if anything PVP gear is superior to PVE gear atm. PVP is so much more enjoyable pre-50 because it's more about skill then gear.

[rtek]

Always the same idea from same kind of players from wow to swtor. If you don't want pvp gear don't do it, it is so simple. Go raid or something, i want reward for my time in pvp. And i am not guy who stay all day long in station and wait for bg, i do quests, exploring and crafitng. Some of you guys want no story, no pvp gear, no grind, no quests, no huge planets, no ships, instant teleports and exct. Maybe is mmo wrong genre for you people and you should try with fps games

[Gwal]

If top PVP gear = top PVE gear, there is no need for special PVP stat. Special stats just create segregation of player base, which is never good for the game. There is no reason why someone who enjoys both PVP and PVE can't wear a mix of PVP & PVE gear. Forcing people to focus on one aspect of the game is not good for anyone. And to all the PVP-only people in the thread against this idea, if you think you're hot sh*t, then you shouldn't need a special stat advantage to beat a "PVE noob". Besides, this isn't WoW, if anything PVP gear is superior to PVE gear atm. PVP is so much more enjoyable pre-50 because it's more about skill then gear.

 

No way. I want to make people with lives outside the game feel weaker than me and their reflexes/tactics should not be a factor then when they quit and the game stagnates I

can move onto the next MMO and do further damage to my long distance vision in return for repeating this experience.

 

Srsly

 

These issues are what makes games like this another stop gap before the next big thing.

[uQQme]

Same gears. Same builds. Same stats. Top guilds will always steamroll newer inexperienced players.

 

Guild Wars says hi.

[rtek]

This has to be the best logic i have ever read, you sir need to be the head of PVP development for Bioware.

 

O yea sure. You would like noobs from pve to dominate pvp. Raid guys with best pve gear to pawn everyone. Well, king of mmo wow did that and swtor stay with that because it is best way to do it. There is no other way and it is the only fair way to everyone, pve gear is simply not fair because big guilds with regular raiding times would destroy pvp.So continue dreaming

[rtek]

Same gears. Same builds. Same stats. Top guilds will always steamroll newer inexperienced players.

 

Guild Wars says hi.

 

Nice, bye bye Have fun with new story about 7 dragons destroying world

[Gwal]

Nice, bye bye Have fun with new story about 7 dragons destroying world

 

I'm a PvPer not a lore geek.

[Treebyrn]

Always the same idea from same kind of players from wow to swtor. If you don't want pvp gear don't do it, it is so simple. Go raid or something, i want reward for my time in pvp. And i am not guy who stay all day long in station and wait for bg, i do quests, exploring and crafitng. Some of you guys want no story, no pvp gear, no grind, no quests, no huge planets, no ships, instant teleports and exct. Maybe is mmo wrong genre for you people and you should try with fps games

 

Lol, this person seems to think that when all that is left is him and a few hundred of his fellow hard core pvp peeps... that Bioware is going to conitinue to spend money on the pvp side of the game. In fact if the % of pvpers goes down and the % of pve'ers go up then where do you think bioware is going to spend all their time and money on???

 

 

Ask yourself this in 6 months when pvp is still a freaking mess and pve side has 3 brand new raids.

[Cabdriver-]

If top PVP gear = top PVE gear, there is no need for special PVP stat. Special stats just create segregation of player base, which is never good for the game. There is no reason why someone who enjoys both PVP and PVE can't wear a mix of PVP & PVE gear. Forcing people to focus on one aspect of the game is not good for anyone. And to all the PVP-only people in the thread against this idea, if you think you're hot sh*t, then you shouldn't need a special stat advantage to beat a "PVE noob". Besides, this isn't WoW, if anything PVP gear is superior to PVE gear atm. PVP is so much more enjoyable pre-50 because it's more about skill then gear.

 

If PvP and PvE gear is absolutely the same, I will still steamroll players just the same way as with expertise. I am already unkillable 2v1. If it so means that I earn gear quicker through raiding and hardmodes/whatever, I will simply form a top-notch group of elite players and mass-farm raids/HM's for the best and easiest obtainable gear, and continue to steamroll in warzones.

 

People will still outgear other people, and the competition is by no means any "fairer" unless you remove gear from the game completely, which sure as hell will infuriate the community.

[gryhmr]

PVP stats are the killing stroke against competitive play. Give PVE players a special stat that helps them take less damage on boss encounters, and keep PVP competitive

[Cabdriver-]

PVP stats are the killing stroke against competitive play. Give PVE players a special stat that helps them take less damage on boss encounters, and keep PVP competitive

 

Competitive players devote the time to remain competitive. Casual players struggle to remain competitive gearwise because they either don't have the time or want to RP or do missions instead. There is a difference.

 

I rarely, if ever, see anyone complaining about expertise in the warzones at Bloodworthy EU. If anything, the whine goes against the horrible random bags. To be fair, the grind towards a decent amount of expertise isn't even that long, and a couple of weeks is fair in most peoples eyes. The battlemaster pieces offers so low statgains that we don't even have to talk about it.

[Bartes]

Expertise stat is fine. What is wrong is the rich getting richer mechanic with Dailies. If my side has less gear we will loose and get less gear while they will get even more gear. Stupid as frack IMO. It is so stupid to the point that there will be moment when one side may not get any dailies done at all.

[timboi]

No it stays! I didn't get my butt whipped for a week straight to have my expertise taken away from me! You become num to losing when trying to grind for your battlemaster gear. You just need to suck it up and get your PVP gear. It's the only thing that counters Raid gear which I personally HATE raiding.

 

You complaining about Expertise is like a PvPer complaing about being forced to go through Raids in order to get gear. Sorry!

 

you're missing the point. you shouldnt have to pvp to grind gear to compete, you should pvp because you enjoy it and there it is more of a skill based than a gear based competition.

 

WoW makes the gear>>> skill mistake

Rift makes the gear >> skill mistake

Aion makes the gear>> skill mistake

ToR makes the gear >> skill mistake

 

DAOC gave EVERYONE spellcrafting and easily obtainable items to be within that 98%+ area of competitiveness. you could roll out with a group full of realm rank 3 with a clue and destroy your average rr11+ groups with ease. why? pvp was skill based and you had to rely on your team to play together.

 

the biggest mistake of mmo pvp today is that most pvp is gear based victories. THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANT TO DO. if i want gear i'd go pve, because its not fun when you are at such a disadvantage.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Paralassa
content

[MetalT]

So apparently Expertise is bad because it makes it too hard for new 50s to get in to pvp?

 

Solution A:

Crafted blue pvp gear.

 

This would allow fresh 50s to go to the GTN and purchase a full set of expertise gear so that they aren't getting completely crushed in pvp.

 

It also adds a huge market for for crafters, especially on PVP servers.

 

Solution B:

Drastically reduce the cost of Centurion gear.

 

Centurion gear is the lowest level pvp gear currently in the game, yet it takes far too long to actually obtain it. Currently, assuming you get unlucky opening every bag, you need to open about 12 bags (more for weapons) to obtain one piece of gear. The average pvp player can probably earn enough for one bag a day through commendations alone, maybe 2 if they are playing a lot that day. That means that it takes about 6 days to earn enough centurion commendations to purchase one piece of gear (excluding dailies). With Dailies/weeklys a person might be able to buy 2 pieces of gear per week assuming they are completely unlucky.

 

The time it takes to earn one piece of gear is absurd and considering how easy it is to earn champion gear it further devalues centurion gear.

 

Bioware could easily make a valuable place for centuion gear by making it the starter pvp set. Make it cheap and easy to obtain (like 2 weeks for the full set).

[Okamakiri]

If PvP and PvE gear is absolutely the same, I will still steamroll players just the same way as with expertise. I am already unkillable 2v1. If it so means that I earn gear quicker through raiding and hardmodes/whatever, I will simply form a top-notch group of elite players and mass-farm raids/HM's for the best and easiest obtainable gear, and continue to steamroll in warzones.

 

People will still outgear other people, and the competition is by no means any "fairer" unless you remove gear from the game completely, which sure as hell will infuriate the community.

 

That's fine. At least everyone will have an equal opportunity to better their character. PVE encounters are static, they don't care if you leveled to 50 first week of the game, or joined the game a year after release. PVP on the other hand get progressively harder to get into for fresh 50s. If the only source of competitive gear for PVP is actual PVP due to special PVP stat, most new players will just stay away from it, and game will continue to bleed PVP players faster then replenishing them. PVP and PVE gear progression should be nothing more then two paths to same goal.

 

And to comment on your "leetness". In current system, if you go up against an equally skilled player who's decked out in PVE gear of equivalent quality to your PVP gear, you will win by default. Likewise if you both go into a raid, he will out DPS you. I see no reason why things should be this way. If you both put in equal effort in different aspects of the game, you should be equally viable in all aspects of the game.

 

Special stats just discourage people from taking part in all aspects of the game. You shouldn't want to keep "PVE noobs" out of your PVP, you should welcome the new blood. Fact is, some of them will enter with their "carebear" gear anyway, so the fact that they're at a disadvantage puts you at a disadvatage as well if they're on your team.

[KingRaRa]

It's the same for pve, columi is far easier to aquire than tionese, making the bottom tier really pointless. A blue craftable/easily buyable expertise stat would be nice. Or hell, just make centurion use wz/merc tokens instead of their own special commendations and be done with it. I still think expertise does far too much for a single stat, offensive and defensive and healing instead of just 1 based on your role, but getting rid of it would not work at all; pvp does need it's own stat in some way.

[Seventh]

I dont understand though why would you expect to be better at a activity then the people who have spent their entire time practicing and getting better at that activity? Say if you were a Basketball player and I was a Football player.. Why would you expect to be on par or better then me in Football just because you decided you enjoyed playing it? Sure you should be allowed to play it but NO sir you are not entitled to be the best in everything without putting the time into becoming the best at said thing.

 

This is not a good example imo... if there were no resilience stat, people who spend time playing will learn the ability of skill. Just because you drink Gatorade, wear some padding, zero weight shoes, and a headband doesn't mean you are a better athlete. Don't you guys watch those Gatorade commercials? It comes from within, but because of the PVP stat on gear it ruins things a ton. look at Jimmy Graham... was a basketball player, but is one of the best tight ends in football now... he just has skill within... you think him wearing a helmet made him better at football?

 

Like someone mentioned early in the post if they must have expertise, which I don't think they need, they should put it to the player for the valor levels. Also don't give huge PVP stat bonuses... even 5% of expertise is enough of a difference maker handicap. I also hate how expertise gear causes everyone to look the same as their class... Every PVPer will end up looking the same and I dislike that in a MMO.

 

Lastly to all these pro expertise players... you scared of getting beat by the newbies and PVE players? Maybe they need to just have a warzone where gear does not play a factor... everyone wears the same gear for their class. This is honestly probably why MMOs are slowly losing momentum to League of Legends and other Dota like games. Being good at PVP should be a skill that takes time to develop... a noob who has 10 hours+ a day PVPing could suck, but due to the gear he has... in an open field fight against anyone not PVP geared would drop like a fly.

[BubbleDncr]

I'm new to PVP (and MMO's), and I enjoy doing both PVP and PVE.

 

I've ended up doing more PVP, not because its easier to get armor or because I prefer it, but because its easier for me to get int (hit a button and wait, or spam the general chat for hours lfg)

 

And I've just realised that I'll eventually have a set of armor for PVP, and a set for PVE. So I guess I'll just be swapping armor a lot.

 

But that makes sense to me, in a way. To have different bonuses for different situations.

Edited January 23, 2012 by BubbleDncr

[Merk-aba]

It's SO easy in this game to get PVP gear I cant believe we are even having this discussion really.

 

I hit 50 4 days ago and I already have 6 pieces of champion gear. Between the Ilum daily/weekly and the warzone daily/weekly you can get bags galor.

 

and I dont find that a well geared enemy makes all that much of a difference. Sure they have 5% more dmg than me but good teamwork and well timed interupts and cc usually corrects that.

 

Besides the actual difference between Centurion and Champion gear is pretty small.

 

14 slots of Centurion vs Champion is only around what 1% more dmg? I say give it time.

 

My only complaint is that I'm on a lower population server and there IS no or very rare L50 PVP right now.

[Armethious]

I have said it before, and I will say it again. At the moment, Expertise does NOT give a significant advantage in PvP over equivalent level PvE gear. In fact, most of the time the PvE gear is straight up better.

 

The main reason for this is the PvE gear of the same level has MORE endurance and MORE of the primary stat than the PvP gear. This completely negates the benefit from expertise, especially since it has diminishing returns while endurance does not. I do not think there is any diminishing returns on the primary stat, but that I do not know for sure.

 

What they need is a way to make PvP gear actually better in PvP than PvE gear. Someone who is focused on PvP should not be forced to go raiding just to get the best gear for PvP. He should be able to get it by doing what he enjoys, PvPing.

 

Personally I prefer raiding and I do PvP on the side. I do enjoy PvP and I am halfway decent at it as well. At the moment I have one piece of Rakata, two Columi and the rest is a mix of Tionese and Champ gear. I have over 17000 HP and 1600 willpower fully buffed as a SAGE and I still have over 8% expertise. I fully expect to crack 18-19K once I get all Rakata and Columi gear.

 

Bottom line, there is a problem with expertise, but it is exactly opposite of what the OP thinks it is. PvP gear needs its OWN gear progression that shines in PvP, but is dubious in PvE.

[Seventh]

I'm new to PVP (and MMO's), and I enjoy doing both PVP and PVE.

 

I've ended up doing more PVP, not because its easier to get armor or because I prefer it, but because its easier for me to get int (hit a button and wait, or spam the general chat for hours lfg)

 

And I've just realised that I'll eventually have a set of armor for PVP, and a set for PVE. So I guess I'll just be swapping armor a lot.

 

But that makes sense to me, in a way. To have different bonuses for different situations.

 

The flaw here is.. on a PVP server people may see each other outside the battleground as well. Just because someone puts in 10 hours of PVP time a day doesn't mean they should outright beat someone who is equally skilled but spends their 10 hours on PVE instead. PVP should just be PVP... shouldn't need stats to boost PVP.

 

I PVP a lot... I actually got penalized for PVPing to level rather than PVE. I leveled almost 30 levels purely on warzones... the 1000/1000 commendations limit, valor rank limit, and bag uniqueness limit were all 100% BULL$H!T. Because of the expertise stat, when I finally hit 50... 2 days ago... my valor rank was also 49.... but I probably spent more time than a ton of the people at 50 with full sets of centurian gear. I spent my whole SWTOR life PVPing only to get slapped in the face by Class quests offering only 5 xp... having only 2 companions for the longest time... getting my legacy unlock so late that my legacy level is a turd. I probably wasted thousands of commendations buying useless level based bags, overbuying merc commendations not knowing it keeps purchasing even though you capped out, and not noticing there was a cap of 1000 warzone commendations during release week.

 

I was really just angry that I spent more time PVPing than my fellow guildies that were PVEing rush leveling to 50. They end up gearing faster and becoming ultimately stronger than I was and more effective in warzones. My experience was that PVEing > PVPing to achieve PVP greatness sub level 50. Now that I hit 50 later than the crowd... even though I PVP'd way more... I have no chance at killing anyone in full PVP gear 1on1 no matter how talented I may or may not be... even pushing a 50 in fire and bashing on them doesn't kill them... just laughable... all because I did not have EXPERTISE, although I spent 70% of my gametime in Warzones from levels 10-50.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Seventh

[ColdxArmyxKid]

Solution:

Let me either OPEN my Champion Gear Bags before 50 or let me stack them.

 

Why does this work? You still have to PvP gratuitously for PvP gear. The difference is that you can get your gear for level 50 before you get stuck in the bracket with all the super-geared folks.

Think about it. Level 1-49 is, for the most part, balanced. If I can get gear for level 50 in this bracket and then, once I'm level 50, be geared accordingly, wouldn't that fix the problem?

[Seventh]

Solution:

Let me either OPEN my Champion Gear Bags before 50 or let me stack them.

 

Why does this work? You still have to PvP gratuitously for PvP gear. The difference is that you can get your gear for level 50 before you get stuck in the bracket with all the super-geared folks.

Think about it. Level 1-49 is, for the most part, balanced. If I can get gear for level 50 in this bracket and then, once I'm level 50, be geared accordingly, wouldn't that fix the problem?

 

This is what I thought would have happened... and you can read my agony in the post above you I agree with you... this could fix the problem at least on the PVPer's side.

[Dantragk]

SW:TOR

 

PVP:

 

Gear > Skill 100% of the time.