The Expertise stat has to go...

[CommandoPower]

I dont know if you know this or not... but this is an mmoRPG, your character is skilled, not you. Tactics play a part. And the gear is available for everyone. It isn't their fault they worked to get it and others didnt.

 

Too bad the most successful PVP games disagree with you. This, btw, does not include WOW or others like it. PVP is bolted on to the side of a PVE gmae in those and if you clocked peoples hours the vast vast majority spent wwaaaayyyyy more time in PVE than PVP.

 

Games like Dark Age of Camelot and Guild Wars with a significant PVP basing and crowd however had a relatively minor power difference due to gear. In fact changing this is one of the main reasons Dark Age of Camelot lost most of it's players, sharply declining after the Trials of Atlantis expansion.

 

Likewise other competitive PVP games outside of the MMORPG sphere are similar. DOTA, FPS games, RTS games, etc are all based around the idea of player skill being 90% of what gives the win or the lose.

 

Sadly even FPS games are starting to suffer somewhat of the WOW effect, but even now in an FPS gmae a completely new soldier is either competitive out of the gate, or competitive almost immediately, getting their essential gear very very early. Example: BF3. You start effective but need to unlock your first 2-3 items to really be competitive. Luckily this takes literally less than a weekend.

[CapuchinSeven]

I dont know if you know this or not... but this is an mmoRPG, your character is skilled, not you. Tactics play a part. And the gear is available for everyone. It isn't their fault they worked to get it and others didnt.

 

Rubbish, I fight bad Warriors all the time as a Guardian and beat them because they failed to make the class work for them. s'funny watching Warriors trying to use their own Master Strike without stunning me first, then wondering why I interrupt and kick the Sith out of them.

[NessusFett]

Too bad the most successful PVP games disagree with you. This, btw, does not include WOW or others like it. PVP is bolted on to the side of a PVE gmae in those and if you clocked peoples hours the vast vast majority spent wwaaaayyyyy more time in PVE than PVP.

 

Games like Dark Age of Camelot and Guild Wars with a significant PVP basing and crowd however had a relatively minor power difference due to gear. In fact changing this is one of the main reasons Dark Age of Camelot lost most of it's players, sharply declining after the Trials of Atlantis expansion.

 

Likewise other competitive PVP games outside of the MMORPG sphere are similar. DOTA, FPS games, RTS games, etc are all based around the idea of player skill being 90% of what gives the win or the lose.

 

Sadly even FPS games are starting to suffer somewhat of the WOW effect, but even now in an FPS gmae a completely new soldier is either competitive out of the gate, or competitive almost immediately, getting their essential gear very very early. Example: BF3. You start effective but need to unlock your first 2-3 items to really be competitive. Luckily this takes literally less than a weekend.

 

 

sadly even the fps community is choking on "progression means skill"

just look how cod games turned to **** on pc

 

more people still playing cod 4 than there were on blackops and mw2 combined before mw3

 

 

/backontopic

give us balance and new content and unlocks for visual bonuses and out of arena beast mode. dont make us grind post 50 in pvp just to be competitive or even competent

Edited January 13, 2012 by NessusFett

[Rovaeden]

What do Wow and Rift have in common seeing as some one else mentioned the names.... They both have extremely low new PvP player uptake. Getting people to enter PvP in those games and stick with it long enough to be on par gear wise (Or close enough to be competitive) simply doesn't happen, at a rate that replaces outgoing players.

 

Both of those games have PvP communities that loose members faster then they replace them with new Ex PvE Playing converts. The PvP stats make it VERY VERY hard to introduce new players to the fantastic world of PvP that we all get. I think most of us will grind on alts when we have too ect... because we are already hooked. There was a time when every one of us was not a PVP player... admit it none of us came to PvP first.

 

The bracketing that PvP stats creates drives away growth. It will become a problem for TOR in the future as well.

 

I want to add my voice to this discussion. I completely agree with this ^^, 110%.

 

Nothing kills the fun of endgame on a new toon faster than the pvp gear grind and inherent gear imbalance (for me and for a lot of other people that I have known over the years).

 

Depending on how old the game is and how deep into the PVP stat all the vets are, the grind becomes less and less enjoyable.

 

I quit wow over a year ago and have had no desire to go back.

 

Can you guess why that was and is?

 

It was because of the PVP.

It was simply impossible to catch up to the top people and have a shot at being competitive.

It was because of the lack of fun that created.

No matter how skilled or how bad I might be at pvp on any given day or in any given match, it always ended up that Gear > all.

 

 

I want to close by saying I fully support the notion that Bioware completely remove PVP stats from pvp gear. Remove Expertise and bring back combined brackets.

 

I had a blast vs 50s on my low level, bolstered toons. I think the system is just fine, until 50s started stacking expertise, that is.

 

Expertise is the problem, not the solution.

It needs to go away.

[SFCPudding]

I agree with the core of the message that a lot of people have been posting, that being, there is a problem with PvP right now.

 

Expertise is not the problem. There are a LOT of good reasons to have a PvP stat, which have been highlighted by people much better able to explain these reasons than I am.

 

The problem is how difficult it can be to gear up. On my server, the Empire has something like a 2:1 number advantage over the republic. This means more 50s, and more importantly, more geared PvPers. This makes winning warzones on republic side a very difficult task. In the same amount of time it takes to grind out the warzone and merc commendations on my republic characters, I can get 4-5 times as many on my empire side. This is a vicious cycle. Empire has better gear, means harder to win WZs, means slower to get gear, means you fall further behind.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not whining about favoritism; this is a player-base issue, not bioware's fault. What IS bioware's fault is the way they implemented the PvP dailies. Quests to get WZ WINS is not how they should've gone about it. The quests should be to PARTICIPATE in warzones. Maybe make it 'either win 1 warzone, or participate in 3'.

 

Another good step to solving the gear problem would be to implement, as someone mentioned earlier, a 'mid-tier' PvP set. Something like the honor blues from WoW, that are easy to pick up, but don't quite compare to the higher-end gear. Something that a new PvP'er can easily pick up to be able to compete to some degree.

 

There are lots of interesting points, arguments, and counter-arguments being made here. I understand where OP and his supporters are coming from; gearing isn't working as it should be. Yet. But the problem does not lie in the existence of the Expertise stat. That's just something that's easy to point to and say "FIX!"

[Khoraji]

Too bad the most successful PVP games disagree with you. This, btw, does not include WOW or others like it. PVP is bolted on to the side of a PVE gmae in those and if you clocked peoples hours the vast vast majority spent wwaaaayyyyy more time in PVE than PVP.

 

Games like Dark Age of Camelot and Guild Wars with a significant PVP basing and crowd however had a relatively minor power difference due to gear. In fact changing this is one of the main reasons Dark Age of Camelot lost most of it's players, sharply declining after the Trials of Atlantis expansion.

 

Likewise other competitive PVP games outside of the MMORPG sphere are similar. DOTA, FPS games, RTS games, etc are all based around the idea of player skill being 90% of what gives the win or the lose.

 

Sadly even FPS games are starting to suffer somewhat of the WOW effect, but even now in an FPS gmae a completely new soldier is either competitive out of the gate, or competitive almost immediately, getting their essential gear very very early. Example: BF3. You start effective but need to unlock your first 2-3 items to really be competitive. Luckily this takes literally less than a weekend.

 

FPS games should be about player skill, i was talking about MMORPG PvP which should be more about gear and leveling. Just because something is labeled PVP doesnt mean you have to make every character the same for balance sake. That is what MMO's are all about, leveling, gear, etc. Or else why play an MMO if all it is is an FPS with auto-targeting and an overhead view? Lets just give everyone the same abilities, same gear, same weapons, after all that is the most balanced approach right?

 

If you don't want gear advantages in an MMO, i suggest Counter-Strike or games like it where you are meant to be evenly "geared". This is an RPG.

[deblin]

Alot of players is working really hard to get that gear doing 15+++ warzones everyday for weeks, so no they will not remove it to make only hardcore raiders have the best gear.

 

15 games a day is, what, 3 hours? I mean, that's a lot, sure, but it's not a "ruining my life for this game" lot. I run maybe 5 or 10 every couple of days and I'm already sitting on a 6% expertise bonus, which isn't ZOMG THE BEST EVAR but is plenty to keep things from getting too frustrating.

 

My main issue is that I'm on the low-population side (I'm told that Empire has a 3:1 advantage) so I tend to be on the side with the random sub-50s who can't access expertise at all, against guild groups full of 50s who've leveled up exclusively on PvP, not that I'm individually underpowered. The addition of the level 50 bracket will fix like 90% of my non-profanity-filled complaints about PvP, i.e. the ones not involved in some juggernaut leaping me and hitting the goal line in the 0.0001 seconds I was out of cover.

[SandTrout]

FPS games should be about player skill, i was talking about MMORPG PvP which should be more about gear and leveling. Just because something is labeled PVP doesnt mean you have to make every character the same for balance sake. That is what MMO's are all about, leveling, gear, etc. Or else why play an MMO if all it is is an FPS with auto-targeting and an overhead view? Lets just give everyone the same abilities, same gear, same weapons, after all that is the most balanced approach right?

 

If you don't want gear advantages in an MMO, i suggest Counter-Strike or games like it where you are meant to be evenly "geared". This is an RPG.

 

I'll be perfectly honest, this sounds like an excuse from someone who lacks skill, and wants a game they can win without it. That's probably not how you meant it, but that's what I read it as.

 

All PvP should be largely determined by skill because that is the point of PvP, to test your skills against the most dangerous prey: another human. You don't need to test your gear to know it's better than other gear, it has numbers on it. If you just wanted PvP to be about levels and gear, you should create a game that calculates out the stats of your gear and build and that of your opponent, and just tells you who the winner is without having the hassle of playing a warzone.

 

Claiming that PvP should be about gear because it is a Role Playing Game, well... makes about this much sense.

 

Wanting to turn PvP into a gear pissing match (granted it already is one, much to my chagrin) is misguided, at the least.

[Sky_walkerPL]

15 games a day is, what, 3 hours? I mean, that's a lot, sure, but it's not a "ruining my life for this game" lot

 

You do realize that people who have life, and work, and (god forbid for MMO gamers) family actually hardly can spend more than 3-4 hours per day gaming AT ALL?

 

Add to this frustration from newbie teams, getting pawned by Imperial premades, wins that don't register for daily quest, Expertise BS, and you have big chunk of playerbase removed from PvP.

 

I'll be perfectly honest, this sounds like an excuse from someone who lacks skill, and wants a game they can win without it. That's probably not how you meant it, but that's what I read it as.

 

This.

 

Sadly: Majority of MMO gamers got used to a comfort of game where skill doesn't matter, but gear and grinding does.

 

And despite of what they so strongly and often repeat: It DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY! or actually: it SHOULDN'T be this way if you want to create competitive PvP community!

Edited January 13, 2012 by Sky_walkerPL

[Wombraider]

while youre at it BW, just remove PVP altogether

 

man all these crying kids rant about anything to get their way, and they usually get it, which is how games slowly become easier/lamer overtime

 

This is what happened to WoW and why I hate/hated that MMO. I hope to hell, these same whiny *** kids don't ruin this mmo as well..

 

Also, instead of whining about the gear and getting your *** handed to you, why not pvp and get the gear? I got owned a lot early on, but it only incentivized me to get that gear! I can have the best of both worlds, a pvp set and a pve set. This is the best route as most players enjoy the rewards of receiving epic gear.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Wombraider

[Wombraider]

while youre at it BW, just remove PVP altogether

 

man all these crying kids rant about anything to get their way, and they usually get it, which is how games slowly become easier/lamer overtime

 

This is what happened to WoW and why I hate/hated that MMO. I hope to hell, these same whiny *** kids don't ruin this mmo as well..

[Astarica]

I actually took a piece of Rakata (top PvE) with Battlemaster (top PvP) gear. I picked the focus slot since it has pretty significant stats for my class.

 

Rakata has +10 endurance +21 willpower.

Battlemaster has +50 Expertise.

 

Everything else is exactly equal.

 

21 willpower is about +4 damage and +0.15% or so crit.

10 endurance is 100 HP.

 

50 Expertise is about +1% PvP modifier. Assuming you have 17K HP in full Battlemaster, that's equivalent of +170 HP (roughly).

 

+1% damage is obviously more than +0.15% crit and +4 damage.

 

That said, it's also not that much more. You're looking at an effective +70 HP for PvP, and maybe +0.8% DPS for the top PvP piece versus the top PvE piece.

 

So a character wearing Rakata (PvE) gear is almost as strong as a character wearing Battlemaster. If there was no Expertise, the Battlemaster, since it's a purple level 58 armor, would have to be as strong as Rakata anyway. And even if for some reason it is not, then people would be complaining about the guys wearing Rakata armor are too strong, since it is almost as strong as Battlemaster armor for PvP.

[bodhisattvasw]

Raid gear vs people who do not want to raid

 

WoW calls it Resilience

Rift calls it Valor

TOR calls it Expertise

 

Whatever it's called, it has ruined each of these games.

 

Valor has effectively destroyed PVP in Rift, so bad, they had to give the same valor to ALL levels of pvp gear to try and offset the tremendous imbalances. Even this didn't fix it, so now they are evaluating removal of valor, or adding valor to ALL gear (even PVE gear).

 

Any sort of 'stat' like this is a hideous ideal for endgame pvp.

[komotoz]

really ....people want expertise to go ? that is dumb so what only raiders can own ?

 

good raid gear means you win ?~~ why don't they just open a mall where you can buy gear with real money the more you spend the more you win ?

 

pvp gear is for pvp !!!!

pve gear is for pve !!! don't change that its not broken !

 

with out the 50s the pvp will change a lot the bolster effect is great at evening out things

10-40 after killing 40-49 is rough at under 20 even 30 but w/e

 

and if new pvpers are discouraged that someone put more time in to getting gear for pvp

wait till they find out about raid tier gear!!!!

 

maybe those people that are discouraged about tiers of gear shouldn't play a mmorpg!

 

 

 

(Sith War Jug immortal lvl 42 = punching bag <thats me )

[yosoytupapa]

Yea I agree, I think this kind of stat ruins most pvp in games. It just turns into a tank war or rock/paper/scissors battle.

[SandTrout]

really ....people want expertise to go ? that is dumb so what only raiders can own ?

No, no, no, no, NO!

 

There are PvP Vendors, we are advocating removing expertise and simply replacing the battlemaster gear with gear equivalent to the Rakata sets.

 

Just because Blizzard couldn't figure out a way to allow PvPers to gear up on par with PvEers doesn't mean we have to follow in their idiocy.

 

Same stats for top-end gear, reagardless of PvP or PvE means.

 

PvP can then PvE whenever they want, and PvE can PvP whenever they want without feeling gimped.

[Vegathegreat]

No, no, no, no, NO!

 

There are PvP Vendors, we are advocating removing expertise and simply replacing the battlemaster gear with gear equivalent to the Rakata sets.

 

Just because Blizzard couldn't figure out a way to allow PvPers to gear up on par with PvEers doesn't mean we have to follow in their idiocy.

 

Same stats for top-end gear, reagardless of PvP or PvE means.

 

PvP can then PvE whenever they want, and PvE can PvP whenever they want without feeling gimped.

 

This is an even bigger no, cuz then your saying grinding whatever time sync pvp has before you is equal to doing hardmode raids. That type of logic would kill pve as everyone would just get the gear from pvp. Pve is suppose to have a progression line with the best possible damage gear in the game, even better than the best pvp gear's damage output.

 

The only thing they should really do is just nerf expertise by 20% and they already announced they will be nerfing the consumable stacking.

 

Make no mistake, the good players want the best gear regardless of what ridiculous events must take place to obtain it. Good players are not challenged by 1v1 some scrub in equal gear. We know we are better and can careless about dominating 99.9% of the community. It's about taking it up a notch, maybe solo 3-5 players cuz working to get the best gear gives you a competitive advantage.

 

MMO's are math equations boiled into real time factors with cause/effect results. The reason gear progression is there is so the best players can try and solve the equations that the other 99.9% dont even know exists. You see a bunch of people attacking each other, i see everyones actions all at once and then calculate my position and the next sequence of events on the fly. I already know what you are going to do before you do it, cuz if you dont do it your already dead, its simple math and the quicker you understand that the better you will become.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Vegathegreat

[Baromega]

I don't understand the argument that if expertise goes (not gear for PvPers, simply the stat), that people in raid gear would somehow start owning in PvP? I came to SWTOR with my WoW raiding guild, but unlike them I was a PvPer at heart. During the early days of SWTOR, when there were few 50s and even fewer people with decent pvp gear, we queued up together since warzones gave great exp and credit rewards. And you know what all their PvE experience amounted up to? Crap. While I was holding my own fairly decently, they were getting smacked around because they couldn't understand basic PvP tactics like circle strafing, juking interrupts, resolve/diminishing returns, realizing that those seemingly bad talents had an important place in PvP. The fact of the matter is, when you give similar gear to a pure PvE and pure PvP player (and probably balance the classes a little more), the PvP player will always come on top.

 

And if you're not, then guess what buddy? You're not good at PvP, and no amount of "special stats" will solve that.

[SandTrout]

This is an even bigger no, cuz then your saying grinding whatever time sync pvp has before you is equal to doing hardmode raids. That type of logic would kill pve as everyone would just get the gear from pvp. Pve is suppose to have a progression line with the best possible damage gear in the game, even better than the best pvp gear's damage output.

 

The only thing they should really do is just nerf expertise by 20% and they already announced they will be nerfing the consumable stacking.

 

Make no mistake, the good players want the best gear regardless of what ridiculous events must take place to obtain it. Good players are not challenged by 1v1 some scrub in equal gear. We know we are better and can careless about dominating 99.9% of the community. It's about taking it up a notch, maybe solo 3-5 players cuz working to get the best gear gives you a competitive advantage.

 

MMO's are math equations boiled into real time factors with cause/effect results. The reason gear progression is there is so the best players can try and solve the equations that the other 99.9% dont even know exists. You see a bunch of people attacking each other, i see everyones actions all at once and then calculate my position and the next sequence of events on the fly. I already know what you are going to do before you do it, cuz if you dont do it your already dead, its simple math and the quicker you understand that the better you will become.

 

I see, it's not that you wan't what he has, you just don't want him to have it.

[Vegathegreat]

I see, it's not that you wan't what he has, you just don't want him to have it.

 

No he can get it too, nothing is stopping him, we all started playing this game around the sametime, it is the same grind for everyone.

[Walrusaurus]

The issue that so many people seem to not be getting is that expertise as a stat doesn't actually serve any purpose beyond creating an extremely high barrier of entry into PvP.

 

It increases your damage dealt by, say, 20% while also reducing your damage taken by that same percentage. Meaning that in full battlemaster gear two people will perform exactly the same against each other as they would if they didn't have any expertise at all. Now compare a fully geared pvp toon to someone just starting out.The geared guy deals 20% bonus damage, while again taking 20% less. He's 40% more powerful than his opponent before you even take into consideration the ilevel difference in their gear. There is no amount of skill that will allow you to overcome that gap, or really even come close. That is the problem with expertise.

 

The only reason to stack it is because everyone else stacks it; it doesn't actually provide any real benefit to your character (barring healers). It simply discourages people from entering into pvp. No one enjoys being steamrolled by geared out toons. Some of us are willing to suffer through it till we have enough expertise to where we stand a chance. But many more are not. That's not a recipe for a healthy and sustainable pvp community.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Walrusaurus

[SandTrout]

No he can get it too, nothing is stopping him, we all started playing this game around the sametime, it is the same grind for everyone.

So he grinds PvP for his Rakata gear.

 

You grind Flashpoints.

 

Why can't you both pull from the same equipment list?

[Vegathegreat]

So he grinds PvP for his Rakata gear.

 

You grind Flashpoints.

 

Why can't you both pull from the same equipment list?

 

Cuz then your basically telling raiders that all the hard work and grouping involved in raiding doesnt yield the best gear for there respective end-game. You basically tell them that trading daily quests in ilum is = to nightmare soa kills. I mean are you that narrow sighted?

Edited January 13, 2012 by Vegathegreat

[EternalFinality]

Cuz then your basically telling raiders that all the hard work and grouping involved in raiding doesnt yield the best gear for there respective end-game. You basically tell them that trading daily quests in ilum is = to nightmare soa kills. I mean are you that narrow sighted?

 

So. What?

[Vegathegreat]

The biggest problem and ive said this in previous posts is everyone wants to instantly be the hero. YOU are not the HERO until you EARN the gear to be the HERO. Until this point in time you are a peon, a grunt, a footman. You are the person who assists the HERO. you are the person who STOPS the bomb plant while your HERO (the guy who can actually kill stuff) is doing his thing. And through your contributions and aiding of someone who has established themselves as a force on the battlefield you will eventually be rewarded with the same gear and then guess what...YOUR A F ING HERO NOW !!!!!!!